Wim Hof Vs Buteyko

[m_arch]

I use at the same time Peat diet, somatic experiencing (I am able to do some to me now), Buteyko breathing that clearly de-activates, and some creative meditation (it replaces the person that regulates you in a ssession, and that is how I can work on myself)


All those method go together, and I think it is very interesting the way they explain each other, or precise etc.
If we equilibrate food and breathing, then the body can work better to get rid of our past activations.
Buteyko mentions this.....
Some people have problems when their CP goes higher!

How do you learn the somatic experiencing technique?

 

[Parsifal]

He looks pretty normal for his age, looking at the many pictures taken of him in public.

Well, maybe. My dad who is 5 years older looks younger and healthier despite having been very sick these last years.

Also, I don't care how he looks compared to how he should at his age, I'm judging him from his videos and photos from previous years. I think he is aging really fast.

 

[Xisca]

m_arch, I learnt by going to the 3 years course. It is just starting in europe.
As they train for being a practitionner, I think there is no way to learn it for own practise, which is unfortunate.
You are supposed to go and see a practitionner when you want to get rid of some stress or PTSD etc.
Also, you can use the books. One even has a CD for some somatic exercices and get into the habit of connecting more to the body awareness, the felt sense.
Then you can understand and do part of the job yourself. also, if you get into an accident, you will know how to react better (and what to not do), or you can help people better if you are near an accident. It is all about support through the ANS, and I think it is what is in compassion (when it is not only pity or any kind of gentle judgement!).
It also helps to be more accurate in any other practise like therapies, relaxation, yoga, meditation...
Also very useful for feeling what is right in working with breathing, which is how we started talking about it!
When we are used to be attentive to emotions, the somatic experience is also the body response that is linked to the emotion. For example, if you know that you are angry, you might not be fully conscious WHERE you feel it in your body, or HOW. If you find some tense muscles and focus your attention on them, they usually relax BY THEMSELVES after a moment of attention. If you force the relaxation, then you freeze the body response. It looks gone but it is not....
I have practise, but can tell you it is still not easy to keep focussing on my own...

For the ones doing Buteyko or similar, I also find that I have some difficulties in focussing on the slow breathing. I understand why people go to group practise!

Sharing on a forum is also a good way to sustain motivation...
What shared m_arch about numbers (that I did not understand well as I do not understand what is measured! If you want to expand about what meant your experiments...) raised attention and help make the exercice to transmit the result. Motivation help, through the co-regulation system that all mammals share...

 

[m_arch]

What shared m_arch about numbers (that I did not understand well as I do not understand what is measured! If you want to expand about what meant your experiments...) raised attention and help make the exercice to transmit the result. Motivation help, through the co-regulation system that all mammals share...

Thanks for sharing.

ETCO2 stands for 'end-tidal co2' which is the measurement of co2 coming out of the end of your exhale breath. Its 'normal' value is between 4.0 and 6.0 kPa, the higher the value the higher the indicator of the metabolism.

A bit of an update:

I've noticed the past few times a correlation with o2 as measured by the oximeter and etco2 as measured by the capnometer; when i'm getting good etco2 measurements (i.e. 6.0 to 6.2 - aka relaxed and high metabolism), this corresponds with a measurement of 96% o2 on the oximeter. When my etco2 measurement is lower, then my oximeter reading is higher, usually 97 but sometimes 98%.

 

[Xisca]

Thanks for explaining, so I felt I could read you again and understand further.
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but, Peat focus on co2 from metabolism, and Buteyko induces it, forces it, by an exercice.
I would like to find the missing link... I think it is what you look for as well!
I can represt it as a snake eating its tail: where do we enter the circle? It is all related! It might even be more than 1 snake, and more than 2...
Maybe, you can use breathing when metabolism is not good, and then all gets better when metabolism gets better.
The basis of Peat is that you have a problem when your body produces lactic acid EVEN when there is enough oxygen. Then you cannot produce co2. Not enough co2 leads to bad oxygen delivery. The fact is that the problem with oxygen is not how much you have but how much you CAN use it!
Am I right with this?
I do have too much pains and aches, and I have a high fasting glucose rate. And this from chilhood. It is not getting worse, it seems to me, but I would like to reverse it.
The part that is linked to chronic stress is that when you are stressed, your body is acting for preparing to act even though you do not act. I guess that is why the body reacts by making lactic acid even when it should not. The body acts as if you were doing some strenous exercice!
I also ask myself if I am right about this...
Or else, what is the cause of producing lactic acid when there is enough oxygen?

 

[Xisca]

I found this interesting:
"the Buteyko student will get abnormally low etCO2 (and higher arterial CO2), while a "deep breather" will get abnormally high etCO2 with reduced arterial CO2 concentrations."
He says that only in normal breathing etCO2 shows reality, what is going on in the blood.

I've noticed the past few times a correlation with o2 as measured by the oximeter and etco2 as measured by the capnometer; when i'm getting good etco2 measurements (i.e. 6.0 to 6.2 - aka relaxed and high metabolism), this corresponds with a measurement of 96% o2 on the oximeter. When my etco2 measurement is lower, then my oximeter reading is higher, usually 97 but sometimes 98%.

Let me try to sort out this information and interprete it...
good etCO2 can be low CO2 in blood, according to my quote from Artour...
Low CO2 -> high O2. And you do not get this, but lower o2.
Now, let's try: low etCO2 as higher co2 in the blood, so less o2. Nor do you get this.
So it seems that your etco2 correspond to your blood co2 and logically, when you have less co2, you have more o2.
You seem to say that when you are relaxed and having a good metabolism (I guess you mean you feel you have energy, heat...), you have less o2 on the oximeter.
Now you have to tell me one thing: how much % of o2 is supposed to be "good" and normal?

I am still also interogative about this of a higher pH with more O2, higher pH WHERE in the body? In the blood? And what if more oxygen.... and bad use of this O2 by the cells?

 

[jyb]

It seems Wim Hof is using adrenaline and cortisol indeed to boost his metabolism. They tested him, and I think if he had elevated thyroid levels are something, they should have noticed. They noticed elavated levels of cortisol and adrenalin.

So why does the study above cited by nerfherder show reduced cortisol and inflammation and lesser response to endotoxins? I think it's great that some are critical about these topics, but why automatically assume that any form of strain is maladaptive?

 

[Heidi]

A bit of an update:

I've noticed the past few times a correlation with o2 as measured by the oximeter and etco2 as measured by the capnometer; when i'm getting good etco2 measurements (i.e. 6.0 to 6.2 - aka relaxed and high metabolism), this corresponds with a measurement of 96% o2 on the oximeter. When my etco2 measurement is lower, then my oximeter reading is higher, usually 97 but sometimes 98%.

Thanks for this update. I'm looking forward to readings of 96%! It's also reassuring to me that there's a good correspondence between the oximeter and capnometer readings.

 

[Heidi]

Yes this is Peter Levine's work. He has another more recent book, where he speak of a car accident he got, and he used his training to not have post trraumatic desorder. He talks about the mistakes some people did to take care of him, and who did right and heap, etc Many good examples. He also wrote a book with Maggie Kline, to do prevention for children, and some curing.
I cannot answer your question, that is too difficult, but I will tell a bit.
The freeze is always with the accelarator.
The normal decelerator is not called freeze but relaxation. This part of the system is also responsible for co-regulation, which is what people do when they are together (and other animals do as well)
They are just 2 parts of the same para-sympathic system.

And yes it is possible to heal from trauma, I have healed some. The freeze maintains the accelarator on = bad digestion and bad immune system.... Therefore it is important!
And so yes, logically there should be a return to a good cell respiration, so more co2.
About heart rate, I am not sure but I think that it can be slow when there is too much parasympathic.
Go out of some old freeze response is not easy to do, because the freeze is a security to anaestesiate and not feel what is too strong.
So there is a need to titrate, which mean to go slowly and small.

I use at the same time Peat diet, somatic experiencing (I am able to do some to me now), Buteyko breathing that clearly de-activates, and some creative meditation (it replaces the person that regulates you in a ssession, and that is how I can work on myself)

Very careful with the go out of freeze: Once I had a shaking so strong that it was like epilepsia. It was not during a SE practise.
And in a training session, I came to a freeze to the point that I was paralized. It was even difficult to speak. Of course they took me out if it, thanks to the assistant who helped!

Also, I use it now when I am in a difficult situation, like once in a cliff. I thought they had to call for the helicopter to take me out. Then I thought I should use SE, and id it. I grounded myself and was able to go out of a very dangerous place. I needed 2 sessions of somatic to get rid of some consecuencies of this event though.... Because it gave me vertigo even on a ladder!

All those method go together, and I think it is very interesting the way they explain each other, or precise etc.
If we equilibrate food and breathing, then the body can work better to get rid of our past activations.
Buteyko mentions this.....
Some people have problems when their CP goes higher!

Thanks Xisca for these details and others about the sensory experience. The library has Peter Levine's other book that you mentioned. So I will get it and read it soon.

I've recently had good success with working with the sensory experience of emotions. I posted about it here Relearning How To Breathe And Increasing CO2 In the past I've done a lot of Eugene Gendlin kind of focusing type work and feeling a felt sense. That might be similar to the sensory work that you describe. Trauma, breathing, and sensory experience are all so intimately connected.

 

[Heidi]

Now you have to tell me one thing: how much % of o2 is supposed to be "good" and normal?

Artour says, "Having a normal level of CO2 in the lungs and arterial blood (40 mm Hg or about 5.3% at sea level) is imperative for normal health." Carbon Dioxide: Health Effects, Uses and Benefits

 

[m_arch]

Thanks for explaining, so I felt I could read you again and understand further.
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but, Peat focus on co2 from metabolism, and Buteyko induces it, forces it, by an exercice.
I would like to find the missing link... I think it is what you look for as well!
I can represt it as a snake eating its tail: where do we enter the circle? It is all related! It might even be more than 1 snake, and more than 2...
Maybe, you can use breathing when metabolism is not good, and then all gets better when metabolism gets better.
The basis of Peat is that you have a problem when your body produces lactic acid EVEN when there is enough oxygen. Then you cannot produce co2. Not enough co2 leads to bad oxygen delivery. The fact is that the problem with oxygen is not how much you have but how much you CAN use it!
Am I right with this?
I do have too much pains and aches, and I have a high fasting glucose rate. And this from chilhood. It is not getting worse, it seems to me, but I would like to reverse it.
The part that is linked to chronic stress is that when you are stressed, your body is acting for preparing to act even though you do not act. I guess that is why the body reacts by making lactic acid even when it should not. The body acts as if you were doing some strenous exercice!
I also ask myself if I am right about this...
Or else, what is the cause of producing lactic acid when there is enough oxygen?

Yes I think the same thing. Peat co2 from metabolism, Buteyko from breathing techniques.

Buteyko tries to induce the body's tolerance to increased co2 so as not to hyperventilate - so you retain it in your body. This helps o2 delivery to cells.
Ray induces increased cellular respiration and thus co2 production.

I would imagine that both practices create increased co2; however Buteyko practitioners often have low etco2 scores.
Vice versa though - I follow peat and have a high ETCO2 score however my control pause is quite low.

Something isn't quite making sense. I feel like increased cellular respiration requires increased respiration of the organism (the human) - perhaps buteyko practitioners have lowered their metabolism in order to get a high CP because they also do vegetarian diets, supplementing fish oils, fasting and cold showers. Indeed CO2 is important but I feel there are more benefits to having a high metabolism so I feel healthy having a high ETCO2 even though my CP is low.

I'm not sure about your lactic acid. How do you know you have lots of lactic acid? Is it from exercise? I think Tara of Heidi posted this website. It is the breathing technique I sometimes do, similar to buteyko: Recovery Breathing

It says it helps delayed onset muscle soreness, which is due to lactic acid build up from exercise. It might help you - i'd give it a try?


Currently I do recovery breathing and I've noticed my scores as follows:
Before recovery breathing
ETCO2: 6.0% kPa
O2: 96%

During recovery breathing I wear the oximeter and notice my o2 can go as low as 92%. It usually sits at a maximum of 95% and frequently dips down to 94 and 93%.

Immediately after 10 minutes of recovery breathing I get an ETCO2 score of 6.7-7.1% kPa.

 

[Kasper]

So why does the study above cited by nerfherder show reduced cortisol and inflammation and lesser response to endotoxins? I think it's great that some are critical about these topics, but why automatically assume that any form of strain is maladaptive?

They found reduced inflammation by stress hormones I believe.

 

[m_arch]

I found this interesting:
"the Buteyko student will get abnormally low etCO2 (and higher arterial CO2), while a "deep breather" will get abnormally high etCO2 with reduced arterial CO2 concentrations."
He says that only in normal breathing etCO2 shows reality, what is going on in the blood.

You seem to say that when you are relaxed and having a good metabolism (I guess you mean you feel you have energy, heat...), you have less o2 on the oximeter.
Now you have to tell me one thing: how much % of o2 is supposed to be "good" and normal?

I am still also interogative about this of a higher pH with more O2, higher pH WHERE in the body? In the blood? And what if more oxygen.... and bad use of this O2 by the cells?

Its very confusing isn't it?
When I do buteyko breathing, my oximeter o2 readings go lower. From starting at 96%, down as low as 92%. This indicates that, somehow, increased co2 in my body is causing a decreased oximeter o2 reading.

When I test my etco2 after a buteyko session, it is indeed higher than when I started.

I'm not sure of all the science behind it, but increased ETCO2 is an increased feeling of calm and warmth - unless I am exercising.
Decreased ETCO2 indicates feelings of stress and uneasiness for me.

I am also not sure where this increased co2 or increased o2 is going. Artour has some images which show the brain gets less blood flow if a person hyperventilates - and that blood flow is increased in general if there is more CO2.

If I hyperventilate using the wim hof method my o2 shoots up to 99% immediately and I get weird tingling feelings.

 

[m_arch]

So why does the study above cited by nerfherder show reduced cortisol and inflammation and lesser response to endotoxins? I think it's great that some are critical about these topics, but why automatically assume that any form of strain is maladaptive?

That was my initial thought too.

I imagine going from an ice bath to a sauna, back and forth over and over, would cause an overall increase blood flow in the body and be good for ones health.
I imagine only an ice bath to perhaps not be good - especially what has been said about cold potentially causing an increase in the bodies PUFA.
I imagine only a sauna to not create as great of a blood flow as combined with the hot and the cold.

 

[Heidi]

Yes I think the same thing. Peat co2 from metabolism, Buteyko from breathing techniques.

Buteyko tries to induce the body's tolerance to increased co2 so as not to hyperventilate - so you retain it in your body. This helps o2 delivery to cells.
Ray induces increased cellular respiration and thus co2 production.

I would imagine that both practices create increased co2; however Buteyko practitioners often have low etco2 scores.
Vice versa though - I follow peat and have a high ETCO2 score however my control pause is quite low.

Something isn't quite making sense. I feel like increased cellular respiration requires increased respiration of the organism (the human) - perhaps buteyko practitioners have lowered their metabolism in order to get a high CP because they also do vegetarian diets, supplementing fish oils, fasting and cold showers. Indeed CO2 is important but I feel there are more benefits to having a high metabolism so I feel healthy having a high ETCO2 even though my CP is low.

I'm not sure about your lactic acid. How do you know you have lots of lactic acid? Is it from exercise? I think Tara or Heidi posted this website. It is the breathing technique I sometimes do, similar to buteyko: Recovery Breathing

It says it helps delayed onset muscle soreness, which is due to lactic acid build up from exercise. It might help you - i'd give it a try?


Currently I do recovery breathing and I've noticed my scores as follows:
Before recovery breathing
ETCO2: 6.0% kPa
O2: 96%

During recovery breathing I wear the oximeter and notice my o2 can go as low as 92%. It usually sits at a maximum of 95% and frequently dips down to 94 and 93%.

Immediately after 10 minutes of recovery breathing I get an ETCO2 score of 6.7-7.1% kPa.

I was the one who posted the link to the recovery breathing web site. Thanks for posting the details about your good results with it. It is inspiring. How much are you doing the recovery breathing?

I went and read Artour's page on the capnometer. EtCO2 (End-Tidal Carbon Dioxide) | Capnography Waveforms
His conclusion at the end is "Hence, etCO2 monitoring and capnography are not useful as biofeedback, but can be used in the long run (e.g., once per day or once per week), as an additional tool for breathing retraining control. This is how Dr. Buteyko viewed and described capnography." So I think that he is essentially saying that Buteyko practices can give an inaccurate etCO2 reading, but that over the long term etCO2 readings will increase and that it can be used as a long term measurement. So overall, Buteyko breathing increases CO2 and the body's ability to use it. (Xisca, I got confused by this when I read your quote from Artour's page out of context.)

M_arch, I wonder if it would be helpful to do capnometer readings an hour or two later and if the results of a Buteyko exercise would register then? Or maybe it would be good to take a capnometer reading at the end of each day, and see if a day that you did a lot of Buteyko exercises made a difference? Or maybe if a lot of physical exercise made a difference? (Enjoyable physical exercise makes me feel really good. So I suspect that it's doing good things for my CO2 levels, even though I have no way of measuring that.)

Artour then says, "The situation with the application of breathing devices (such as the Frolov breathing or the DIY breathing device) is different since the practicing person has to have large diaphragmatic inhalations and exhalations, while the capnometer can be used to measure CO2 inside the breathing device or near the place where air leaves the device. In this application (e.g., for the Frolov breathing device therapy), the results will show real CO2 values in the container at the end of exhalations and etCO2 monitoring and capnography waveforms can be used as biofeedback." M_arch, I think that this is really interesting, that Artour highly recommends the capnometer as a biofeedback device for the breathslim or frolov device. If you do any experimentation with this, I will be very interested to hear about your readings and results.

I would imagine that both practices create increased co2; however Buteyko practitioners often have low etco2 scores.
Vice versa though - I follow peat and have a high ETCO2 score however my control pause is quite low.

I think that the oximeter/capnometer and the control pause are measuring different things. I think that the CP measures respiratory strength. Athletes will automatically have a high CP. I think that there are a lot of ways to raise CO2 that won't necessarily raise the CP, or might raise it only very modestly. Buteyko exercises tend to be more demanding on the body and cause more stress. A Ray Peat approach wants to minimize stress as much as possible. I've come to the conclusion that one just needs to keep moving in the direction of increased CO2 and increased metabolism. And that there are lots of ways to get there, so each person can pick and choose the methods that are easiest or most inspirational for them as an individual.

Also, it depends on your smaller goals and desires within the bigger whole of increasing CO2. For example, my primary goal right now is to have my everyday breathing be settled, light, low in my diaphragm, and accompanied by deep physical relaxation. If my primary goal was to raise my CP, then I would focus on different exercises and do different things. My plan right now is to first get my breathing right because that feels so foundational for me. Later I will focus on raising my CP. However, some people suggested that I should first focus with the breathslim/frolov device as that will make everything else easier. I think that was excellent advice, but I'm not following it yet, because the everyday breathing and breathing form has been so important to me. Other people have suggested that my approach is too hard and that it would be easier if I took supplements and fixed other things first. They might be right, but I feel really compelled to fix my breathing and need to follow that deep motivation first. I want to see how much I can fix just by changing my breathing. I want to give my body a chance to heal without complicating my situation with too many other changes. It might be a harder path, but it's what I want, so I'm going to find out where it leads.

 

[tara]

The fact is that the problem with oxygen is not how much you have but how much you CAN use it!

Yes.

Buteyko from breathing techniques.

Yes, and when well enough, from physical exertion.

Ray induces increased cellular respiration and thus co2 production.

Yes, and also the regular bag-breathing he seems to think can gradually increase CO2 tolerance.

 

[jyb]

They found reduced inflammation by stress hormones I believe.

If you do something that reduces severe inflammation and reduces some markers of stress, then you can't exclude that the overall metabolic health and average long term stress (here, the period of the experiment) is lowered. If you increase hormone X and decrease Y, and the long term average is good, I'm not sure if makes sense to call X a stress hormone. There are so many situations that fit this description especially when we talk about food and exercise. Now, I'm not sure if something so extreme as Hof is useful, but looking at the surface of it, whether it is good or bad is not completely obvious for the same reason... You'll note here that chronically suppressed immune system is not the same thing as controlled, "modulated" (as described in those studies) immunity.

 

[Kasper]

If you do something that reduces severe inflammation and reduces some markers of stress, then you can't exclude that the overall metabolic health and average long term stress (here, the period of the experiment) is lowered. If you increase hormone X and decrease Y, and the long term average is good, I'm not sure if makes sense to call X a stress hormone. There are so many situations that fit this description especially when we talk about food and exercise. Now, I'm not sure if something so extreme as Hof is useful, but looking at the surface of it, whether it is good or bad is not completely obvious for the same reason... You'll note here that chronically suppressed immune system is not the same thing as controlled, "modulated" (as described in those studies) immunity.

Are you sure cortisol is lowered, I think they showed Wim Hof has higher than average cortisol response to endotoxins.

 

[jyb]

Are you sure cortisol is lowered, I think they showed Wim Hof has higher than average cortisol response to endotoxins.

Read the study if you want to look at the cortisol and endotoxin response. It would not make sense to modulate your immune system if it were to in fact increase inflammation during an endotoxin challenge.

 

[Kasper]

No but cortisol and adrenalin are very potent anti inflammatory. So it makes sense that it helps with inflammation. But in the long run also very estrogenic. @jyb