Wim Hof Vs Buteyko

[Sheila]

Dear Xisca,
thank you for your explanation, it makes sense. I suspect the response was very much protective and it was seriously fast hyperventilation, the sort that over-enthusiastic ham acting is indeed likely to produce!
Best to you,
Sheila

 

[tara]

I would think that if this method worked, that then Buteyko would have known about and explored it, but maybe not. Or maybe it works for some people and not for others?

I think Buteyko worked with many very sick individuals, most of whom may not have been able to afford the short-term high risk of even brief extreme hyperventilation?

There was a study where some dogs were hyperventilated to death. Peat has mentioned that he thinks sometimes people are hyperventilated to death in hospitals.

I think hyperventilation triggers the fight flight freeze response, aka sympathic activation that can lead to a strong parasympathic blocage by the vago-dorsal branch (see Porges for the polyvagal theory)

This may be the case, but I think CO2 also has some more direct effects on both nerves and muscles - muscles can cramp because low CO2 changes the threshold for contraction, and then low CO2 does not allow them to relax correctly after contraction. End game being rigor mortis.
Can't remember how it works with nerves, except that CO2 allows them to calm - maybe they too get more easily activated and less easily return to energised resting state too?
I would not assume it was all protective, even if some component of it may be in some extreme situations.
(Anyone measured the CO2 levels in animals that play dead when threatened? Sheila, are you in possum territory with a suitable capnometer? )

 

[Heidi]

That was a very good post, tara.

I found mention of the dogs being hyperventilated to death in this article:
Prolonged post-hyperventilation apnea in two young adults with hyperventilation syndrome
"In experiments on animals, the potential lethal effect of PHA (post-hyperventilation apnea) was reported by Mosso [32,33] when he hyperventilated nine dogs. After hyperventilation, five of the dogs were left entirely undisturbed to either die apneic or to recover unaided. Two dogs died. The degree of hypoxia observed was striking. At the beginning of their experiment, the arterial oxygen content was 14.8 volume percent and the arterial carbon dioxide content was 16.2 volume percent. At the end of eight minutes of apnea, the arterial oxygen content was zero, and the arterial carbon dioxide content was 21.7 volume percent. Based on the above findings, we cannot deny the possibility that PHA related to HVS can lead to a fatal outcome." Poor dogs. There were some horrible experiments done on dogs that I accidentally bumped into when trying to find reference to this.

 

[Xisca]

Tara, you say "this may be the case", after writting hyperventilated "to death": whatever triggers a threat to life triggers the fight or flight response. What is less known is that if those do not work well, or if experiences showed some past failures with this choice, then sooner or later, and sometimes very quick, the body goes to the feeze response. It can be as light as some shyness, and as strong as being as a statue.
The possum is an example of freeze too, and it has to be understood that this attitude is not and cannot be voluntary. In their case, this has become part of the genetics, they go to this response because it proved more efficient for evolution.
There are some videos about a "freezing line" of goats. When you frighten them, they ran 2 meters and fall like dead during a few minutes, then wake up, shake off the freeze and go as if nothing had happened.
Some dogs have this as genetic mutation too.
But it is not to say that this is genetics, this is a nrmal reaction to danger, but it is part of different options bodies have at hand. Genetics as well as experiences trigger what seems best adapted to the situation.

 

[Xisca]

Interesting, could you tell more about this polyvagal theory?

By the way, Ray said that too much parasympathic stimulation (with acetycholine or histamines) may not be that good, that's maybe why he prefers people to have a high heart rate?

I will try to write a diferent topic about it. There is not ONE parasympthic.
Well, what did sayPeat exactly? There is no fix state of either sympathic or parasimpathic, they move like waves, up and down alternatively.
The problem is when you stay stuck in one state, so that you are no more adapted to what happens around really.
This of the slow rate can be because of a parasympathic state AT THE SAME time than a sympathic state.
The para-s is the brake, and it should alternate with accelerator.
But when there is some freeze response, then the ac celaerator stays on, and the para-s acts like a hand-brake.
When some of this stays, then you have a slow heart rate that is not what should be. Of course, there are also slow rates because of sports etc. If it was simple we would know it!!!!

Let's say 2 more things now:
The normal rate of the heart is not accelerated by sympathic, but slowed down by para-s. We all the time have some para-s to get control of our heart rate, and when our heart speeds up, this is not by adding sympathic activation but by 1st removing some of the brake we have on it. Our normal rate wuld be 125 all the time if we did not have this economy state. This is something Porges says...

Then, what I learned in somatic experiencing is that we have a permanent wave after wave with breathing. Br-in is activation (sympathic) and br-out is de-activation or relaxation (para-s).
You can check it out easily:
If you take your pulse and put your attention on the rythm, you will notice that it is slightly faster while inhalating, and slightly slower when exhalating.
If you feel no difference, then there is some disbalance in the autonomic nervous system.

What is important with breathing is that it is the only part of the body working by itself without thinking (thanks to our ANS) AND that we can also control with our cortex brain. You cannot, directly I mean, modify your heart rate or your digestion etc, but you can control directly your breath. The rest can be controled indirectly, which makes it more difficult.

Hope I make myself understood, as I try to make it short....

 

[Parsifal]

I will try to write a diferent topic about it. There is not ONE parasympthic.
Well, what did sayPeat exactly? There is no fix state of either sympathic or parasimpathic, they move like waves, up and down alternatively.
The problem is when you stay stuck in one state, so that you are no more adapted to what happens around really.
This of the slow rate can be because of a parasympathic state AT THE SAME time than a sympathic state.
The para-s is the brake, and it should alternate with accelerator.
But when there is some freeze response, then the ac celaerator stays on, and the para-s acts like a hand-brake.
When some of this stays, then you have a slow heart rate that is not what should be. Of course, there are also slow rates because of sports etc. If it was simple we would know it!!!!

Let's say 2 more things now:
The normal rate of the heart is not accelerated by sympathic, but slowed down by para-s. We all the time have some para-s to get control of our heart rate, and when our heart speeds up, this is not by adding sympathic activation but by 1st removing some of the brake we have on it. Our normal rate wuld be 125 all the time if we did not have this economy state. This is something Porges says...

Then, what I learned in somatic experiencing is that we have a permanent wave after wave with breathing. Br-in is activation (sympathic) and br-out is de-activation or relaxation (para-s).
You can check it out easily:
If you take your pulse and put your attention on the rythm, you will notice that it is slightly faster while inhalating, and slightly slower when exhalating.
If you feel no difference, then there is some disbalance in the autonomic nervous system.

What is important with breathing is that it is the only part of the body working by itself without thinking (thanks to our ANS) AND that we can also control with our cortex brain. You cannot, directly I mean, modify your heart rate or your digestion etc, but you can control directly your breath. The rest can be controled indirectly, which makes it more difficult.

Hope I make myself understood, as I try to make it short....

Yes, that is clear to me and very interesting. Have you already heard about the heart variability rate and heart coherence?

 

[Heidi]

This of the slow rate can be because of a parasympathic state AT THE SAME time than a sympathic state.
The para-s is the brake, and it should alternate with accelerator.
But when there is some freeze response, then the ac celaerator stays on, and the para-s acts like a hand-brake.
When some of this stays, then you have a slow heart rate that is not what should be.

In somatic experiencing we call this freezing, as a consequence of too much stress. A sort of shut off to protect the body from suffering stress. Like electric fuses.

Thank you Xisca for for taking the time to explain all of this further. It is interesting to me, especially how it relates to the breathing. Is the somatic experiencing a reference to Peter Levine's work? I read his book a long time ago, so I'm a bit familiar with his approach. What do you recommend for healing when the freeze response and accelerator are on at the same time, instead of alternating like they should? Are people able to heal from the trauma and have a corresponding increase in heartrate and CO2?

 

[tara]

Then, what I learned in somatic experiencing is that we have a permanent wave after wave with breathing. Br-in is activation (sympathic) and br-out is de-activation or relaxation (para-s).
You can check it out easily:
If you take your pulse and put your attention on the rythm, you will notice that it is slightly faster while inhalating, and slightly slower when exhalating.
If you feel no difference, then there is some disbalance in the autonomic nervous system.

I have noticed this when measuring heartrate.

WRT the freeze reflex, I know that possums and some other animals have this as a sometimes successful way to reduce danger. I'm wondering whether the mechanism is via reduced CO2 from hyperventilation under stress.

 

[heartnhands]

What about people like Wim Hoff that can control their immune system and people doing cold thermogenesis and cryotherapy?

Wim Hoff is doing very special breathing that must have special access to thyroid functions. Has anyone asked Ray Peat to look at the research done on the practitioners of his Wim Hoff method?

 

[nerfherder]

What about people like Wim Hoff that can control their immune system

Wim Hof uses his breathing to up his adrenaline. His core stays warm. His immune system is suppressed by his high stress level. I'm no expert; I could be misreading this, so...

Here's one of the papers from the group experiment where they tested a set of his trainees. You can see the blood tests for yourself and figure out your own conclusions.

 

[Kasper]

It seems Wim Hof is using adrenaline and cortisol indeed to boost his metabolism. They tested him, and I think if he had elevated thyroid levels are something, they should have noticed. They noticed elavated levels of cortisol and adrenalin.

 

[PeatThemAll]

What about people like Wim Hoff that can control their immune system and people doing cold thermogenesis and cryotherapy?

... or just people who swim in cold water on a regular basis, for that matter?

 

[tara]

They tested him, and I think if he had elevated thyroid levels are something, they should have noticed.

He might just be on the healthy end of the wide 'normal' ranges. I doubt someone significantly hypothyroid would be able to get themselves to tolerate what he does.

Wim Hof uses his breathing to up his adrenaline. His core stays warm.

I guess if you are going to put yourself in a very cold environment, it would also be helpful to restrict blood flow to the periphery, so you don't lose heat so fast? High adrenaline would do that too, right?

 

[Kasper]

He might just be on the healthy end of the wide 'normal' ranges. I doubt someone significantly hypothyroid would be able to get themselves to tolerate what he does.

Yes, that could be true. I just meant to say, that not hyperthyroid kind of stuff made him so warm.

 

[Parsifal]

He looks less and less healthy to me: http://prommanow.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wim-hof.png

What he does he interesting for "scientific" purposes and curiosity but I don't think that it's good for sick people.

 

[Xisca]

I have noticed this when measuring heartrate.

WRT the freeze reflex, I know that possums and some other animals have this as a sometimes successful way to reduce danger. I'm wondering whether the mechanism is via reduced CO2 from hyperventilation under stress.

I am glad you noticed this even without knowing it, it means you are very close to your body sensations.
Hope you did not find it "wrong", as I did before, because this is normal.

We also have the freeze reflex, some animals just by evolution got it as a primary reflex.
There is a VERY strong activation below this state. I mean that the sympathic activation is blocked but is there.
It is what explain trances states, and all mystic states in bliss...

 

[Xisca]

Wim Hof uses his breathing to up his adrenaline. His core stays warm. His immune system is suppressed by his high stress level. I'm no expert; I could be misreading this, so...

I think you are right.
high stress = activation of too much sumpathic system = concentration on survival NOW = suppress immune system, and also digestion, and also libido. And blood goes off the skin, not not loose blood in case of injury! And so less loss of heat as well...

 

[Xisca]

I guess if you are going to put yourself in a very cold environment, it would also be helpful to restrict blood flow to the periphery, so you don't lose heat so fast? High adrenaline would do that too, right?

I think so...
Cold showers are advised in many methods, and Buteyko says to use it after your CP is over 20, so that you can react properly I guess....
Do not forget that sympathic activation is not only fight and flight, it is the normal and sane way to ACT and LIVE.
It just goes higher when there is a threat.
And when too high, shut off the system, = freeze response.
According to the learned patern, some people go quicker to the freeze than others. You can even stay all your life in some freeze state, at least in some aspects of your life.

 

[Xisca]

Well, Parsifal, what he does looks as "not too much" would be better for health, that is playing with resilience....

Yes, that is clear to me and very interesting. Have you already heard about the heart variability rate and heart coherence?

Yes a little and it makes sense. Work on the heart through breathing.

Thank you Xisca for for taking the time to explain all of this further. It is interesting to me, especially how it relates to the breathing. Is the somatic experiencing a reference to Peter Levine's work? I read his book a long time ago, so I'm a bit familiar with his approach. What do you recommend for healing when the freeze response and accelerator are on at the same time, instead of alternating like they should? Are people able to heal from the trauma and have a corresponding increase in heartrate and CO2?

Yes this is Peter Levine's work. He has another more recent book, where he speak of a car accident he got, and he used his training to not have post trraumatic desorder. He talks about the mistakes some people did to take care of him, and who did right and heap, etc Many good examples. He also wrote a book with Maggie Kline, to do prevention for children, and some curing.
I cannot answer your question, that is too difficult, but I will tell a bit.
The freeze is always with the accelarator.
The normal decelerator is not called freeze but relaxation. This part of the system is also responsible for co-regulation, which is what people do when they are together (and other animals do as well)
They are just 2 parts of the same para-sympathic system.

And yes it is possible to heal from trauma, I have healed some. The freeze maintains the accelarator on = bad digestion and bad immune system.... Therefore it is important!
And so yes, logically there should be a return to a good cell respiration, so more co2.
About heart rate, I am not sure but I think that it can be slow when there is too much parasympathic.
Go out of some old freeze response is not easy to do, because the freeze is a security to anaestesiate and not feel what is too strong.
So there is a need to titrate, which mean to go slowly and small.

I use at the same time Peat diet, somatic experiencing (I am able to do some to me now), Buteyko breathing that clearly de-activates, and some creative meditation (it replaces the person that regulates you in a ssession, and that is how I can work on myself)

Very careful with the go out of freeze: Once I had a shaking so strong that it was like epilepsia. It was not during a SE practise.
And in a training session, I came to a freeze to the point that I was paralized. It was even difficult to speak. Of course they took me out if it, thanks to the assistant who helped!

Also, I use it now when I am in a difficult situation, like once in a cliff. I thought they had to call for the helicopter to take me out. Then I thought I should use SE, and id it. I grounded myself and was able to go out of a very dangerous place. I needed 2 sessions of somatic to get rid of some consecuencies of this event though.... Because it gave me vertigo even on a ladder!

All those method go together, and I think it is very interesting the way they explain each other, or precise etc.
If we equilibrate food and breathing, then the body can work better to get rid of our past activations.
Buteyko mentions this.....
Some people have problems when their CP goes higher!

 

[jyb]

He looks less and less healthy to me: http://prommanow.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wim-hof.png

What he does he interesting for "scientific" purposes and curiosity but I don't think that it's good for sick people.

He looks pretty normal for his age, looking at the many pictures taken of him in public.