Wim Hof Vs Buteyko

[Parsifal]

post 96717

Are you saying cold gives you AIDS?

Of course, lol.

What about people like Wim Hoff that can control their immune system and people doing cold thermogenesis and cryotherapy?

 

[Suikerbuik]

Don't take it that serious, it wasn't meant to be actually. I am unsure about the control over their immunity.

 

[m_arch]

So I tried the Wim Hof's method (funnily enough they were both kind of ice-man like, with Buteyko often strutting around the snow in his board shorts) - it was pretty euphoric. Basically 2 minutes of intense, taxing, hyperventilation. Followed by a maximum breath hold (holy cow did I just hold my breath for 2 minutes and 15 seconds whaaat). It felt pretty good.

I then checked my ETCO2 readings from a capnometer, and I had dropped from my standard around 5.8 kPa down to 4.5 kPa. Definite CO2 decrease.

Wim says his technique oxygenates the body, increasing the ph level and in the process wiping out toxins, viruses, endotoxin, etc. Its documented scientifically.

Anyway I then a breathing technique to increase CO2, the 5 seconds in, 5 seconds out, 10 second hold one (reapted for 5 minutes). My etco2 went from 4.5 up to 5.1 kPa.

10 minutes or so later of no special breathing and it was back around its usual 5.8.

It sounds like a cool technique to wipe out viruses or something like that, granted that you get your co2 levels back up quickly (as we all know the benefits of higher co2). Pretty interesting experience.

 

[Heidi]

That's great that you got a capnometer, m_arch. Where did you get it from and how much did it cost? How do the capnometer readings compare to your oximeter readings? So your readings with the capnometer are quite good, right? But your baseline on the oximeter was around 97%, which is kind of high. Is that right? What is your CP? I'm really curious as to how all these measurements compare, if you don't mind posting them and posting your experiences with any changes.

When I last had blood work done, my CO2 reading was average, even though my breathing was terrible at the time. I wonder if it is better to have an even higher CO2 than what is usually given as the norm? Also, I don't really understand why a high CO2 is indicative of a good metabolism. I still feel really stupid about CO2 and measurements, even though I've been researching it for almost 3 months now.

Your Wim Hof experiment is somehow reassuring to me. That even though it temporarily lowered your kPa, that your body then rebalanced itself a short time later. It seems to indicate that short bursts of hyperventilation are okay.

I will be curious to follow any other experiments that you do. Also, after you use it for awhile, I will be curious to hear your evaluation, and if getting a capnometer was worth it.

 

[m_arch]

That's great that you got a capnometer, m_arch. Where did you get it from and how much did it cost? How do the capnometer readings compare to your oximeter readings? So your readings with the capnometer are quite good, right? But your baseline on the oximeter was around 97%, which is kind of high. Is that right? What is your CP? I'm really curious as to how all these measurements compare, if you don't mind posting them and posting your experiences with any changes.

When I last had blood work done, my CO2 reading was average, even though my breathing was terrible at the time. I wonder if it is better to have an even higher CO2 than what is usually given as the norm? Also, I don't really understand why a high CO2 is indicative of a good metabolism. I still feel really stupid about CO2 and measurements, even though I've been researching it for almost 3 months now.

Your Wim Hof experiment is somehow reassuring to me. That even though it temporarily lowered your kPa, that your body then rebalanced itself a short time later. It seems to indicate that short bursts of hyperventilation are okay.

I will be curious to follow any other experiments that you do. Also, after you use it for awhile, I will be curious to hear your evaluation, and if getting a capnometer was worth it.

It cost $1000 AUD, I bought a second hand EMMA off ebay. It was the only second hand one I could find apart from some really old looking models and the sellers couldn't guarantee that I could take my ETCO2 from them without any extra parts.

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My most common resting capnometer reading is 5.7 kPa (healthy range is 4.0 to 6.0 they say, with higher as better through a peat prism). The capnometer measures co2 coming out, i.e. cell metabolism (since this produces co2).
My most common resting oximeter reading is 97% - this is measuring oxygen saturation of the body. I'm not sure what a high value is with the oximeter. My girlfriend has an ETCO2 slightly lower than mine, and an oximeter reading slightly higher. Perhaps this is consistent, I did feel like the oximeter wasn't specific enough though. A 1% change is a pretty big deal, so having like 97.4% might have been more useful. It is interesting to watch how it interacts though. Hyperventilation shoots it up to 99 and buteykobreathing brings it down.

So when I do reduced breathing techniques I can get the capnometer up to 6.5 kPa (I can also easily achieve this while moving around, like, really easily comparatively to breathing. Artor at normalbreathing.com says buteyko and himself recommend nose-breathing exercise like running, or exercise using a training elevation mask, as more powerful than breathing exercises to increase co2 tolerance) - I have done some of this in the past also. But not much. I had an exercise bike, training elevation mask and heart rate monitor and would cycle for half an hour at 150-160bpm, each time increasing the "altitude" of my training elevation mask (making it more difficult to breathe). It got to a point where I felt a bit funny in my head, I probably pushed it a bit too hard and was building up too much co2. At this point I was also reading more about peating and the "stress" caused by cardio so I stopped.

It would be super interesting to do it one more time though just to see what reading etco2 reading I get doing this.

When I do reduced breathing techniques with the oximeter I can get as low as 94% (however it goes up and down like a wave).

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My CP has never been good. I started out with a 10 second CP (funnily enough, everyone I asked to check their CP's got around 10 seconds also. Different races, ages, sizes, genders... all got around 10. So I question the CP as a measurement. Who can really hold their breath for longer without even feeling it?)

After playing around with breathing techniques and doing the cycling I ended up with a CP around 16 I believe.
I just got 11 seconds CP then, whilst simultaneously blowing a 5.7 kPa at 7am in the morning.

I also find that anything 'pro metabolic' and pro peat, red light, sugar, food in general probably, caffeine, all of these decrease CP. However they also warm me up. Similar to exercise. Exercise makes you air hungry (i.e. you'd get a low CP straight after), but the net effect (after recovery etc) is supposed to increase your CP.
Longer term pro metabolic things don't seem to increase my CP though.

Its interesting to note buteyko talked about the ideal state being a high CP, having cold showers / cold exposure (a stressor through a peat prism), and having a low heart rate (okay this could be justified from the increased co2), but also things like eating a vegetarian diet etc. Seems like peat liked that buteyko shone light onto CO2, but didn't think that the method used by buteyko to increase co2 was the best (in fact, I would say its arguable if it even does increase co2. It seems like the opposite, it increases oxygen saturation and decreases co2 - hence the ability to maintain breath holds effortlessly - the body is already oxygen saturated). They both like reduced breathing, but peat favours increasing cellular respiration.

Artour goes through why he thinks capnometers aren't good measurements: EtCO2 (End-Tidal Carbon Dioxide) | Capnography Waveforms
(Basically people with a high CP blow low ETCO2 numbers, indicating a lowered metabolism. They like cold showers, excessive exercise, vegan diets and fasting. Seems to correlate).
He says it is useful however to measure the air coming out of a frolov / breathslim device. I've never tried putting a large container around my frolov device but this could be a cool idea.

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Ultimately I'd hypothesise the fundamental argument of ray peat vs butekyo going something like this:
Ray: This most important health marker; energy and function are interrelated at every level. Energy flow through a system is dependent on metabolism - the ability to use the energy.
Buteyko: This most important health marker; oxygenation of the cells. How long your CP is dictates how oxygenated your body is. (i.e. lower co2, higher PH, higher oxygenation). I'm not sure if co2 really is increased. I probably need to do some research to see how and if it is. But it doesn't make sense that it is at the moment to me.

I don't think Buteyko is wrong, and it can be experienced first hand using Wim Hof's method. Hyperventilation enabled me to hold my breath for 2 minutes 15 seconds.
I just tested then - I can hold my breath for 1 minute and 7 seconds without hyperventilating. So it effectively doubled the breath hold time - indicative of increased oxygenation perhaps. It might be more complex than this, I'm not sure. Someone tell me I'm wrong if I am.

Ray seems to be more about using the oxygen, rather than it sitting in the body in an oxygenated state.
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I've never had my co2 blood taken. I imagine being on the higher side of the normal range is optimal according to peat, just like ETCO2 readings.

In answer to your question:
"Also, I don't really understand why a high CO2 is indicative of a good metabolism. I still feel really stupid about CO2 and measurements, even though I've been researching it for almost 3 months now.

I did too. I think I have the answer now. If you youtube "cellular respiration" or even join a site like kahnacademy.com you can take a free course in biology and learn about it. Basically say we drink some OJ, we'll digest it, it gets broken down into different things. Say we look at a glucose molecule, the cell wants to turn this into ATP (its energy currency) to do this it needs oxygen. When the oxygen and the glucose interact (meaning cellular respiration is taking place, energy is being used) - they give off the 'waste products' of water and co2. So by breathing out more co2, its indicative that more cellular respiration is taking place, indicative of higher metabolism, blood flow, etc.

And these things go through a few cycles; glycolysis, kerbs cycle, and the electron transport chain. Glycolysis and the krebs cycle both produce net 2ATP and the electron transport chain produce 34, so 38 if everything works well. However some fats and proteins only join into the electron transport chain (so they effectively never have the same potential to create 38, only possibly creating 34).

I think this is one of the reason peat favours sugars. It can be interesting to watch.

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Yeah my overall conclusion of the Wim Hof method is that its very interesting. Denise minger had a rawfoodsos.com post about high carb low fat diets, saying that the "magic" seemed to happen at either extreme; high fat low carb or high carb low fat, and the middle was a bit of a dead zone.

People have also practiced the ice lake dipping / then running into a sauna practice which seems to enhance flood blow and general health.

Perhaps the practice of oxygenating ala wim hof method, and then returning quickly to a higher co2 ala similar to a butekyo technique, would be similar. If the high o2, as wim says, could lead to a high PH and knock out all the bugs, viruses etc (which he's done lab experiments to show works) - then followed back to a high co2 state (as seen as beneficial by ray / butekyo)... this could be a really awesome practice.

I'm not sure where to go from here with it though. Does anyone have ray's email? I'd like to ask him about this idea if you want to PM it to me.

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TO DO:
Measure ETCO2 after an exercise bike 30min session using the training elevation mask
Measure the ETCO2 coming out of a frolov device session using a large container and tea towel around it.

 

[Heidi]

Thanks m_arch for your long and detailed post.

So when I do reduced breathing techniques I can get the capnometer up to 6.5 kPa (I can also easily achieve this while moving around, like, really easily comparatively to breathing. Artor at normalbreathing.com says buteyko and himself recommend nose-breathing exercise like running, or exercise using a training elevation mask, as more powerful than breathing exercises to increase co2 tolerance) - I have done some of this in the past also. But not much. I had an exercise bike, training elevation mask and heart rate monitor and would cycle for half an hour at 150-160bpm, each time increasing the "altitude" of my training elevation mask (making it more difficult to breathe). It got to a point where I felt a bit funny in my head, I probably pushed it a bit too hard and was building up too much co2. At this point I was also reading more about peating and the "stress" caused by cardio so I stopped.

It makes sense to me that nose breathing during exercise is more powerful than just reduced breathing exercise. But those kinds of improvements aren't measured by the oximeter. Also, I've found that it can be tricky to do an optimal amount of exercise kinds of things and not stress oneself too much. A certain amount of breath training and exercise has felt really good for me, but too much causes too much stress and sets me back after. I keep thinking that further down the road when my baseline breathing gets even better, that I'll be able to do more of the strenuous Buteyko kinds of things.

I did too. I think I have the answer now. If you youtube "cellular respiration" or even join a site like kahnacademy.com you can take a free course in biology and learn about it. Basically say we drink some OJ, we'll digest it, it gets broken down into different things. Say we look at a glucose molecule, the cell wants to turn this into ATP (its energy currency) to do this it needs oxygen. When the oxygen and the glucose interact (meaning cellular respiration is taking place, energy is being used) - they give off the 'waste products' of water and co2. So by breathing out more co2, its indicative that more cellular respiration is taking place, indicative of higher metabolism, blood flow, etc.

And these things go through a few cycles; glycolysis, kerbs cycle, and the electron transport chain. Glycolysis and the krebs cycle both produce net 2ATP and the electron transport chain produce 34, so 38 if everything works well. However some fats and proteins only join into the electron transport chain (so they effectively never have the same potential to create 38, only possibly creating 34).

Thanks. Your explanation was helpful. I've heard mention of these things on the forum but am just beginning to put it together with the CO2. I don't have a background in any of this, but little by little I'm understanding a bit more.

My most common resting oximeter reading is 97% - this is measuring oxygen saturation of the body. I'm not sure what a high value is with the oximeter. My girlfriend has an ETCO2 slightly lower than mine, and an oximeter reading slightly higher. Perhaps this is consistent, I did feel like the oximeter wasn't specific enough though. A 1% change is a pretty big deal, so having like 97.4% might have been more useful. It is interesting to watch how it interacts though. Hyperventilation shoots it up to 99 and buteykobreathing brings it down.

When I started my most common oximeter reading was 99%. Then it was 98%. Now it's at 97%. It's taken about 6 weeks to get it to drop a percentage point and then stay down. I'd like to get it to where my baseline reading is 95% or even 94%. I'm not focusing on raising my CP right now, maybe later. It will be interesting if you test more people and the oximeter and capnometer readings stay consistent with each other.

TO DO:
Measure ETCO2 after an exercise bike 30min session using the training elevation mask
Measure the ETCO2 coming out of a frolov device session using a large container and tea towel around it.

I was going to ask you about these things. So I'm glad that you're already planning on testing them. I'll be very interested in your results. Also, you could test bag breathing. Are you already taking a bunch of supplements? I wonder if certain supplements would make a difference in the capnometer readings.

 

[m_arch]

Thanks. Your explanation was helpful. I've heard mention of these things on the forum but am just beginning to put it together with the CO2. I don't have a background in any of this, but little by little I'm understanding a bit more.

When I started my most common oximeter reading was 99%. Then it was 98%. Now it's at 97%. It's taken about 6 weeks to get it to drop a percentage point and then stay down. I'd like to get it to where my baseline reading is 95% or even 94%. I'm not focusing on raising my CP right now, maybe later. It will be interesting if you test more people and the oximeter and capnometer readings stay consistent with each other.

I was going to ask you about these things. So I'm glad that you're already planning on testing them. I'll be very interested in your results. Also, you could test bag breathing. Are you already taking a bunch of supplements? I wonder if certain supplements would make a difference in the capnometer readings.

Currently i'm taking glycine, caffeine and k2. If they increase metabolic rate and cellular respiration they should increase ETCO2 if you're eating enough food via the mechanism outlined above.

 

[tara]

I just tested then - I can hold my breath for 1 minute and 7 seconds without hyperventilating. So it effectively doubled the breath hold time - indicative of increased oxygenation perhaps. It might be more complex than this, I'm not sure. Someone tell me I'm wrong if I am.

My understanding of why hyperventilation increases max breath hold time is this:
The drive to breathe is usually triggered by the CO2 level exceeding the current set point.
Hyperventilating lowers the CO2 level.
So after hyperventilating, it takes longer than normal for the CO2 level to rise to the threshold of the CO2 set point that triggers breathing.
This can result in much reduced oxygen level by the time you get to the max hold time.

This is why people have drowned by hyperventilating before going underwater - the oxygen level can run too low before getting clear warning that they need to come up and breathe.

Basically say we drink some OJ, we'll digest it, it gets broken down into different things. Say we look at a glucose molecule, the cell wants to turn this into ATP (its energy currency) to do this it needs oxygen. When the oxygen and the glucose interact (meaning cellular respiration is taking place, energy is being used) - they give off the 'waste products' of water and co2. So by breathing out more co2, its indicative that more cellular respiration is taking place, indicative of higher metabolism, blood flow, etc.

I like this explanation.

It seems feasible to me that higher pH could be inhospitable to some pathogens. There are other ways to raise pH too, and some of them may not reduce CO2 as much. Probably good to not have pH far above normal range to too long.

I imagine that if one is using Hof's hyperventilation techniques it would be very important not to allow the hyperventilation to go on for too long, bso as not to raise the CO2 set point. Deliberately restoring with reduced breathing/breathholds afterwards makes sense to me.

I don't know that this practice would be safe for everyone.Hyperventilation has been used to trigger various conditions for diagnostic purposes - eg epileptic seizures.

 

[m_arch]

My understanding of why hyperventilation increases max breath hold time is this:
The drive to breathe is usually triggered by the CO2 level exceeding the current set point.
Hyperventilating lowers the CO2 level.
So after hyperventilating, it takes longer than normal for the CO2 level to rise to the threshold of the CO2 set point that triggers breathing.
This can result in much reduced oxygen level by the time you get to the max hold time.

Wim talks about hyperventilation oxygenating the body, thus raising the pH level. He then says that the breath controls the pH of the body - the reason we can hold our breath for so long is because our pH is so high, and that a low pH triggers the breathing response.

Or maybe its that the high pH tricks the brain into thinking that it doesn't need to breathe - thus we can hold our breath longer and then trigger the reptilian mind into releasing adrenaline etc.

But it makes sense that the body becomes very oxygen saturated. The oximeter only measures up to 99% but I feel like I'd be measuring like 140% oxygen saturation after hyperventilating for two minutes. What an effort it is!

I guess that's a good point though - it can't really go above 99% can it.

 

[tara]

But it makes sense that the body becomes very oxygen saturated. The oximeter only measures up to 99% but I feel like I'd be measuring like 140% oxygen saturation after hyperventilating for two minutes. What an effort it is!

The oxygen saturation going from eg 96% to 99/100% isn't so much. The relative change in CO2 is much more.

Or maybe its that the high pH tricks the brain into thinking that it doesn't need to breathe - thus we can hold our breath longer

I think this may be possible.

How does Wim Hof's explanation account for the people that drown after hyperventilating?

 

[m_arch]

I performed another Wim Hof breathing experiment today.

7am start, before eating or drinking.

Before:
Temperature - 37c
ETCO2 - 5.1 kPa
Pulse - 68
SpO2 - 97%

Process: 2 min hyper ventilation / breath hold (breath hold time was 2 minutes 55 seconds).
I wore my oximeter during this. In the hyperventilated state, my SpO2 surprisingly remained about 97%.
I get strange tingles all over my body, not very pleasant but I can withstand it for 2 minutes.
During the breath hold my SpO2 remains around 97% until I start to feel air hunger (after around 2 and a half minutes whaaaat)
During air hunger my SpO2 falls like a lead balloon down to 81%, before I need to breathe.
When I need to breathe I don't gasp but simply require a short breath, and in return my SpO2 continues to fall like said lead balloon all the way down to 65% SpO2.
Hard to believe my eyes.

5 minutes After: (all seems to return to normal)
Temperature - 37c
ETCO2 - 5.5 kPa
Pulse: 60
SpO2 - 96-97% (flickering between)


Final thoughts: What is going on here?!?!?! I need to look into the science of this more, that is a massive physiological change.

 

[Heidi]

Wow. That must be scary to watch the SpO2 drop like that. My SpO2 has never gotten lower than maybe 92%. It's very interesting how fast everything returns to normal. Plus your CO2 improved a bit. Did it stay slightly improved? Maybe because of the long breath hold there could be some CO2 improvement or benefit. How do you feel after? Does it feel good or like it's benefiting you in some way? When you do the hyperventilation breaths do you breath through your mouth or your nose?

 

[tara]

I get strange tingles all over my body, not very pleasant but I can withstand it for 2 minutes.

I imagine this is the part where some people could have trouble triggered if they are susceptible to heart attacks, epileptic seizures, etc.

During the breath hold my SpO2 remains around 97% until I start to feel air hunger (after around 2 and a half minutes whaaaat)
During air hunger my SpO2 falls like a lead balloon down to 81%, before I need to breathe.
When I need to breathe I don't gasp but simply require a short breath, and in return my SpO2 continues to fall like said lead balloon all the way down to 65% SpO2.

I think this is why it's good to not be underwater at the time.

ETCO2 - 5.5 kPa

That's interesting that the ETCO2 ended up higher 5min afterwards. I'm curious too.
Also interested in how it is an hour and a day later, if you want to post.

 

[m_arch]

Wow. That must be scary to watch the SpO2 drop like that. My SpO2 has never gotten lower than maybe 92%. It's very interesting how fast everything returns to normal. Plus your CO2 improved a bit. Did it stay slightly improved? Maybe because of the long breath hold there could be some CO2 improvement or benefit. How do you feel after? Does it feel good or like it's benefiting you in some way? When you do the hyperventilation breaths do you breath through your mouth or your nose?

Both myself and my girlfriend think it feels good. And better than buteyko style breath holding where you feel constant air hunger.
Hyperventilation through the mouth - wim says it doesn't really matter. Just get as much air in as possible, so you can get more through the mouth. I always nosebreathe outside of that because of reading ray and buteyko - even when playing tennis I make an effort to only nose breathe.

Yes it seems the CO2 improved due to the neary 3 minute breath hold at the end! I also think perhaps because I was just waking up from a fasted state my ETCO2 was lower, and then the breathing probably activated my body (adrenaline stress response) - probably not such a bad thing in the morning. Just scoffed down some pate and bread, milk, collagen and honey.

 

[m_arch]

I think this is why it's good to not be underwater at the time.


That's interesting that the ETCO2 ended up higher 5min afterwards. I'm curious too.
Also interested in how it is an hour and a day later, if you want to post.

Yeah I agree about underwater. I don't now how free divers train their breath holds but I wouldn't do this and dive either!

An hour later - my ETCO2 is reading 6.1 (I've had caffeine, b vitamins and k2 as well as lots of food and moved around a bit so lol, really hard to get any sort of consistant measurement without putting stressful rigid constraints in my life)
Oximeter readings are about the same.

It seems to just be a temporary spike. It is interesting how quickly things return to normal.
Keeping in mind i'm also a 6"1, always been pretty lean, 24 year old male. I didn't come to ray with notable metabolic issues - although I was slightly sluggish. It was more about optimising, which I feel I have accomplished a lot in because of his advice. For me I think its more about making sure I get my liver, oysters and constant calories and just monitoring things like ETCO2 and temp.

 

[Sheila]

Dear M_arch
I am interested in your experiments, thank you for posting about them.
This is not as simple as just increase the CO2, or so it seems.
Anyway, to your tingles experience, a little aside on my experience of same.
A long time ago, I was playing the accused witch Abigail in a production of The Crucible, about the Salem witch trials.
During this 'performance', I had to pretend to see something in the sky which resulted in a about 3 minutes of serious hyperventilation, staring and pointing at the sky.
I recall the tingles came first, then unbelievable cramps and at the end it was all I could do to get off stage, I was stuck like a statue. It took me a good while to recover - as I still remember it - and I was mid-teens I think so no likely cardio-vascular risk. But, it felt like it.
Possibly don't go past the circulatory warning of tingles, unless of course you are in a "the show must go on" situation. And even then, maybe not!
All the best
Sheila

 

[Heidi]

Both myself and my girlfriend think it feels good. And better than buteyko style breath holding where you feel constant air hunger.
Hyperventilation through the mouth - wim says it doesn't really matter. Just get as much air in as possible, so you can get more through the mouth. I always nosebreathe outside of that because of reading ray and buteyko - even when playing tennis I make an effort to only nose breathe.

Yes it seems the CO2 improved due to the neary 3 minute breath hold at the end! I also think perhaps because I was just waking up from a fasted state my ETCO2 was lower, and then the breathing probably activated my body (adrenaline stress response) - probably not such a bad thing in the morning. Just scoffed down some pate and bread, milk, collagen and honey.

It would be great if you did this on a daily basis and if improved your breathing and CO2 levels. I would think that if this method worked, that then Buteyko would have known about and explored it, but maybe not. Or maybe it works for some people and not for others? Is your girlfriend willing to have you test and post the results of her oximeter and capnometer readings when she does it? I would be interested in her results, especially as her CO2 levels aren't quite as good as yours to begin with.

I don't think that this method would work for me, at least given where I'm at right now. I think I had a physical dependency (addiction?) to hyperventilating as I did Transformational Breathwork for so long. Many people when doing those kinds of breathing practices spend hours hyperventilating through their month, a lot more than several minutes!

I recall the tingles came first, then unbelievable cramps and at the end it was all I could do to get off stage, I was stuck like a statue. It took me a good while to recover - as I still remember it - and I was mid-teens I think so no likely cardio-vascular risk. But, it felt like it.

So my past experience is very much the opposite of yours, Sheila. Your experience, of being in a performance while having those symptoms, seems especially excruciating. But I wonder if you had those strong symptoms because your breathing in general was comfortably reduced, and then those symptoms protected you from going too far into hyperventilation? I think that I had poor breathing and hyperventilated before starting breathwork. So my body never even had those kinds of protective symptoms. So I then was misguidedly able to move in a direction that made things even worse. Or I wonder what else strong hyperventilation symptoms would indicate? For people who have those kinds of hyperventilation symptoms, the symptoms eventually go away after doing repeated breathwork sessions. In breathwork circles, it is looked upon as a good thing to therapeutically work through those kinds of symptoms. Yikes! But the prevailing cultural attitude of more breathing and more oxygen being better, allows these kinds of breathing practices to continue to be way more popular than Buteyko breathing.

I have wondered, especially when I first started to reduce my breathing, if a small amount of hyperventilation could help to reduce one's breathing further. I did find that being a bit freer with my breathing (especially early on) helped me to relax and reduce my breath more.

I woke up early this morning and couldn't get back to sleep. I was thinking of your experiments m_arch, and so I thought that I'd experiment with a tiny bit of hyperventilation with a mask on. First I intentionally breathed deeper and then held my breath. Then, for very short and with the mask on, I hyperventilated through my mouth and then held my breath. I repeated this a few times. I'm pretty sure that I increased my CO2, as I felt a tiny bit headachy after doing this. But after I was done, I wasn't able to settle my breathing more, and my oximeter readings were slightly worse. I think if someone else did what I just did, it might have really helped them. But in general for myself, I've noticed that pushing too hard into obtaining more CO2 tends to have a rebound effect, that then doesn't help me overall in reducing my breathing. But I still feel in a very vulnerable place with my breathing. So maybe once my breathing changes have stabilized for awhile, I might be able to push things more and get more sustaining benefit.

Thanks again m_arch for doing and posting about these experiments. It's stimulating interesting thoughts and discussion around the subtleties of increasing CO2 and reducing breathing.

 

[Xisca]

I also remember those tingles, experimented while playing andean flute in my teens.
Then my arms would contract, as with cramps.

...which resulted in a about 3 minutes of serious hyperventilation, staring and pointing at the sky.
I recall the tingles came first, then unbelievable cramps and at the end it was all I could do to get off stage, I was stuck like a statue.

Like a statue?
In somatic experiencing we call this freezing, as a consequence of too much stress. A sort of shut off to protect the body from suffering stress. Like electric fuses.

So yes I believe Peat when he speaks about protecting against metabolic stress.
I think hyperventilation triggers the fight flight freeze response, aka sympathic activation that can lead to a strong parasympathic blocage by the vago-dorsal branch (see Porges for the polyvagal theory)
exhalation and co2 activates the vago ventral parasympathic state, which is the relaxation that allows the body to digest etc, and thus a good cellular respiration, production of co2 and not of lactic acid.

 

[Parsifal]

I also remember those tingles, experimented while playing andean flute in my teens.
Then my arms would contract, as with cramps.


Like a statue?
In somatic experiencing we call this freezing, as a consequence of too much stress. A sort of shut off to protect the body from suffering stress. Like electric fuses.

So yes I believe Peat when he speaks about protecting against metabolic stress.
I think hyperventilation triggers the fight flight freeze response, aka sympathic activation that can lead to a strong parasympathic blocage by the vago-dorsal branch (see Porges for the polyvagal theory)
exhalation and co2 activates the vago ventral parasympathic state, which is the relaxation that allows the body to digest etc, and thus a good cellular respiration, production of co2 and not of lactic acid.

Interesting, could you tell more about this polyvagal theory?

By the way, Ray said that too much parasympathic stimulation (with acetycholine or histamines) may not be that good, that's maybe why he prefers people to have a high heart rate?

 

[m_arch]

I read one of the studies on wim which said that when he taught others to do the techniques they showed increased aertiral o2 Over a 10 day period. I'm gonna do some more research into it, but I suspect that's not a good thing