William Brown ate 5g of Calcium and 4g of Phosphourus a day......

[Amazoniac]

↳ Effects of Prolonged Use of Extremely Low-Fat Diet on an Adult Human Subject

"The diet was limited to sucrose, potato starch, baking powder, sodium chloride, ferric citrate, viosterol, carotene (vitamin A), orange juice, citric acid, anise oil, liquid petrolatum and milk practically freed of its fat. The daily protein intake was derived from 3 quarts of the specially defatted milk, taken as such, and the cottage cheese made from an additional quart of the same milk. Sucrose provided the bulk of the carbohydrate allowance but was supplemented by a biscuit made from potato starch, skimmed milk, baking powder, salt and mineral oil. The mineral oil was added to serve as shortening and to prevent constipation. Daily supplements of 10 mg. of ferric citrate, 2.5 mg. of carotene, 0.02 cc. concentrated viosterol in oil (8000 U.S.P. units vitamin D) and the juice from one-half of a large orange were given to insure an adequate supply of iron and of vitamins."​

​

"That the diet was of the extremely 'low-fat,' rather than the 'fat-free,' type was recognized when the experiment was planned, but experience with crude diets (Burr and Brown, unpublished data) in studies on the rat had shown this to be satisfactory for our purpose. The chief source of fat in the diet was the skimmed milk. Periodic analyses of this milk as specially prepared showed it to have an average fatty acid content of less than 0.08%. This type of fat (butterfat) has been found to be of such low protective or curative value for rats on a fat deficient regimen that the 2 gm. contained in the daily diet of our subject was not considered sufficient to affect seriously the experiment. As potato starch contains only minute traces of fat, the small amount fed was likewise considered unimportant."​

​

"A uniform consumption of food, providing 2500 calories daily, was maintained throughout the experiment. The sugar was taken in the form of a syrup with citric acid or anise added for flavoring. Frequent small meals were found to be most satisfactory. The syrup was taken at hourly intervals from the time of rising until the time of the evening meal. The orange juice was taken at bed time. Cottage cheese with the biscuit and milk comprised the evening meal."​

 

[sun-maid]

What is Levy's source for these claims? Claims of "40% increased risk" and such are usually either from long term studies where they check in on participants once a year, and often represent a difference of something like 2-3 people per thousand or ten thousand in a group, making any difference sound much bigger than it actually is.

Peat has addressed the idea of calcium intake and calcification of soft tissues, and how low calcium intake here usually leads to soft tissue calcification-

Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Here's a study where patients supplemented from 3.36 to 6.72 grams of calcium carbonate a day, and were followed for up to 12 months. No mention is made of calcification of arteries, nor of any issues with heart problems, and the participants all held their serum calcium in the normal range for the duration of the study-

Chronic Calcium Carbonate Therapy in Uremia

Twenty-one azotemic patients received 3.36 to 6.72 gm (67 to 134 mEq) of calcium carbonate for treatment of acidosis or hypocalcemia or both. All patients were studied for at least two weeks, and 15 studies were continued for 3 to 12 months. A mean increase in serum calcium of 1.6 mg/100 ml and...

jamanetwork.com

Peat has cautioned against some supplemental forms of calcium (like calcium citrate). Personally, I think Peat's recommendations on Calcium make more sense than Levy's. Especially since both iron and phosphates have dramatically increased in modern diets, and both these things antagonize calcium levels.

I agree. I remember him saying that calcium carbonate is anti-inflammatory.

 

[baccheion]

I am now thinking about the mini jug of Lactaid whole milk (12 cups) along with sustained-release melatonin and DHEA. Maybe some floravital for iron + C. I wonder how much pasteurization ruins milk. Maybe 3 cups 4x/day or 4 cups 3x/day.

 

[Braveheart]

Wonder why the EU RDA for Ca is only 800mg ?

 

[baccheion]

Wonder why the EU RDA for Ca is only 800mg ?

The original US RDA was 800 mg calcium, 700 mg phosphorus, and 800 mg magnesium. Lines up with thyroid mode. Needs less sodium, phosphorus/protein, and potassium/carbs. And then more calcium and magnesium.

Can just emulate human breast milk. Phosphorus, sodium, and potassium in it tracks with protein. Cow milk is the same, but amounts adjusted due to lower PUFA and vitamin A : D3 ratio. That is, enough cow milk to get RDA of protein and then empty carbs and fats to get energy. And some missing vitamins, etc still.

 

[gaze]

I definitely feel better with higher calcium when I keep magnesium up too. At least 2:1, so around 2g calcium and 1g magnesium at the minute.

which form of magnesium do you have success with ?

 

[Sefton10]

which form of magnesium do you have success with ?

Mainly carbonate. I react a tsp with a dash of cider vinegar which creates magnesium acetate. I then add OJ and a bit of B1. The acetate should covert to bicarbonate in the body. I sometimes have a couple of capsules of glycinate later in the day too.

 

[Dr. B]

when I started reaching 3000 mg of calcium a day, I started feeling a bit anxious, and on my blood test my calcium was above the range and my PTH was below the range. When I cut back down on calcium, now I usually get around 1500, and increased magnesium, my calcium is now in the middle of the ideal range and my PTH is still low.

Thats just my anecdote, Ray told me over email there is no upper limit for calcium, and theoretically more the better, but that was not my experience.

I think Ray meant no upper limit if obtained via food. im not sure it would apply to supplements, or even eggshells. but if its from milk, bones, fruits etc it should be fine. there's some turkish organic dried figs which have like 100mg calcium per 2 figs (100 calories or 80 calories also). i wonder how low phosphate is in those since its not listed.

 

[Dr. B]

Eggshell calcium, oyster shell calcium or coral calcium are great sources of calcium.

what about ancestral supplements living bone? im assuming since theyre new zealand based gras fed cows, the risk for heavy metals may be much lower than american cows?
there are also shark cartilage supplements available, both shark cartilage and bovine bone have calcium:phosphate of 2:1

 

[Dr. B]

The original US RDA was 800 mg calcium, 700 mg phosphorus, and 800 mg magnesium. Lines up with thyroid mode. Needs less sodium, phosphorus/protein, and potassium/carbs. And then more calcium and magnesium.

Can just emulate human breast milk. Phosphorus, sodium, and potassium in it tracks with protein. Cow milk is the same, but amounts adjusted due to lower PUFA and vitamin A : D3 ratio. That is, enough cow milk to get RDA of protein and then empty carbs and fats to get energy. And some missing vitamins, etc still.

why does it need less sodium and phosphorus/protein/potassium carbs? isnt the rda only 50g-55g protein, 300g carbs, 2500mg sodium and 4500mg potassium?
some on here advise consuming even more sodium, like 5grams+

 

[Hans]

what about ancestral supplements living bone? im assuming since theyre new zealand based gras fed cows, the risk for heavy metals may be much lower than american cows?
there are also shark cartilage supplements available, both shark cartilage and bovine bone have calcium:phosphate of 2:1

If the ratio is 2:1, then it shouldn't be a problem, but then you'll just need more of it to balance out the phosphorus you get from food as well.

 

[Dr. B]

If the ratio is 2:1, then it shouldn't be a problem, but then you'll just need more of it to balance out the phosphorus you get from food as well.

yep, im trying to go entirely meat/seafood/chicken etc free other than, an ounce of liver 4-6 days a week, and possibly, like a half pound or pound of ground beef once a week! id have to implement whey protein for this, and id need to eat it in powder form without making it into a shake, so I am working on that.
im not sure if figs contain phosphorus, but there's organic dried turkish figs available (made in turkey) which contain 80mg calcium. I think OJ also contains a bit of calcium, like 30mg per cup or something. if these things don't have phosphorus, they could help balance out the phosphorus present in the small amounts of liver. the figs have more iron than other fruits ive seen also.

ORGANIC DRIED FIGS

Tender and juicy, all natural Sunny Fruit Organic Dried Smyrna Figs are an ideal snack for those who would like to maintain a healthy diet. Meticulously sun-dried for ideal sweetness, these organic dried figs are an excellent source of dietary fiber, antioxidants, potassium, calcium, iron and...

sunnyfruit.com

are there any dairy items like cream, yogurt, etc which actually dont contain phosphorus or contain much less than milk?

 

[Hans]

yep, im trying to go entirely meat/seafood/chicken etc free other than, an ounce of liver 4-6 days a week, and possibly, like a half pound or pound of ground beef once a week! id have to implement whey protein for this, and id need to eat it in powder form without making it into a shake, so I am working on that.
im not sure if figs contain phosphorus, but there's organic dried turkish figs available (made in turkey) which contain 80mg calcium. I think OJ also contains a bit of calcium, like 30mg per cup or something. if these things don't have phosphorus, they could help balance out the phosphorus present in the small amounts of liver. the figs have more iron than other fruits ive seen also.

ORGANIC DRIED FIGS

Tender and juicy, all natural Sunny Fruit Organic Dried Smyrna Figs are an ideal snack for those who would like to maintain a healthy diet. Meticulously sun-dried for ideal sweetness, these organic dried figs are an excellent source of dietary fiber, antioxidants, potassium, calcium, iron and...

sunnyfruit.com

are there any dairy items like cream, yogurt, etc which actually dont contain phosphorus or contain much less than milk?

Some leafy greens have a great calcium to phosphorus but almost all of them contain various anti-nutrients or anti-thyroid compounds.

 

[Dr. B]

.... during the Extremely Low Fat experiment, based on current day values for skim milk.

Ever since Haidut mentioned the "Bioenergetic Burger," I've been thinking more about the importance of the Calcium to Phosphorus ratio. I realized that the Ca:P ratio in the WIlliam Brown experiment would be favorable pretty consistently. Peat himself thinks the drop in serum phosphorus was important-

Phosphate, activation, and aging.

Recent publications are showing that excess phosphate can increase inflammation, tissue atrophy, calcification of blood vessels, cancer, dementia, and, in general, the processes of aging. This is especially important, because of the increasing use of phosphates as food additives.

raypeat.com

It's almost a bit odd that Peat doesn't cite the Calcium to Phosphate ratio. I think the other factors he mentioned may have indeed contributed (especially the high sucrose intake). The cottage cheese meal might have lowered the ratio a bit, but if the cows weren't fed grains, that might have raised the overall ratio. Regardless, 1.25:1 is still a pretty good estimate, and likely better than most people eat today, and even in Brown's day.

4g of Phosphorus a day is pretty high, but the higher Calcium itself likely did a lot to offset it. Calcium Carbonate has been studied as a "Phosphate Binder," and in this experiment, it was almost as effective as Aluminum Hydroxide-

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm198607173150304

Some of the improvements noted in William Brown have an overlap with testimonials I was reading about Parathyroid Surgery-

What Parathyroid Patients Say About Parathyroid Surgery at the Norman Parathyroid Surgery Center.

Read 2000 testimonials and uplifting stories from doctors and others who had parathyroid surgery by the best parathyroid surgeons in the world.

www.parathyroid.com

Especially the disappearance of Fatigue, and normalizing of Blood Pressure and Blood Lipids. The Brown diet certainly lowered serum phosphate, and likely Parathyroid Hormone as well.

Maybe you don't have to eliminate every last dietary gram of PUFA to reap a lot of the benefits of the experiment. Maybe just keep sugar high, fat low-ish (maybe higher with CO), PUFA pretty low, and Calcium above Phosphate, and maybe closer to that 5g a day level.

do parathyroid glands grow back after surgery? also isnt the juice from half an orange a laughable amount of juice? like an ounce of juice or something?

 

[parallax]

I've been drinking about a gallon of milk nearly every day for a number of decades, and I have caculated my daily calcium intake to vary around 3g-7g. Perhaps I am doomed, or perhaps I am lucky. Or perhaps it is neutral, perhaps a mixed bag.