Wiki: Caffeine is a Goitrogen

4peatssake

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j. said:
But they provide no citation.

Despite being generally a stimulant, caffeine acts on thyroid function as a suppressant.[citation needed]

Link

Wiki article looks extremely suspect to me j. especially seeing that is also cites bamboo shoots as being goitrogen.

And that avocado stimulates thyroid function.

Ray Peat said:
avocados, for example, contain so much unsaturated fat that they can be carcinogenic and hepatotoxic.

I followed a link to one of the external links cited in the article http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/5/4/440.full.pdf and found further questionable "findings."

This article maintains that carrots have a moderate antithyroid effect and further maintains that oranges, milk, liver, grapes and oysters all have "questionable" antithyroid effect!

Foods considered to have no antithyroid effect include corn, rye and almonds.

Nuts I say! :lol:

Of course with Wiki itself, everything is questionable! :P
 

juanitacarlos

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Jenn said:
Caffeine plus aspirin work like T3...so wiki is garbage. IMOPO. ;)

So Jenn, if I wanted a little pick-me-up, some coffee and an aspirin might have the effect of taking some T3?
 

pboy

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I could see how if you were already in a depleted state and you drank black coffee it would further surpress the thyroid...but if you were well hydrated, in a good place, and
took the coffee with some sort of calories or around the time of having or anticipating a meal it would increase thyroid. I might be wrong but I equate it sort of to a car and gas pedal...you need to have a clear road and good gas level or pushing the pedal further would only further stress you...but with an open road (relatively non stressful environment) and a moderate to full gas tank (no fear of going into a catabolic state) then its more enjoyable and efficient (to get where your going) to push the pedal further and go faster
 

4peatssake

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Jenn said:
ttramone said:
Jenn said:
Caffeine plus aspirin work like T3...so wiki is garbage. IMOPO. ;)

So Jenn, if I wanted a little pick-me-up, some coffee and an aspirin might have the effect of taking some T3?

It works for me. (Coffee=coffee+fuel, milk, sugar, gelatin, etc.)

Jenn do you find the aspirin harsh on your stomach and if so how do you mitigate that? RP mentioned aspirin as possibly being beneficial for me and I've been staring at a bottle of it beside my pc for several weeks wondering if I should take it. I have a history of nosebleeds (so severe in childhood I had my nose cauterized. :shock: ) so have been rather reticent. I am taking Vit K (thorne liquid) every 2-3 days.

I was thinking of starting with a single dose of 325 mg with my morning cup of jo! :mrgreen:

Your input (and any other's) is appreciated. Thanks!
 

HDD

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Although the animal studies that showed stomach damage from aspirin often used single doses equivalent to 10 or 100 aspirin tablets, the slight irritation produced by a normal dose of aspirin can be minimized by dissolving the aspirin in water. The stomach develops a tolerance for aspirin over a period of a few days, allowing the dose to be increased if necessary. And both aspirin and salicylic acid can be absorbed through the skin, so rheumatic problems have been treated by adding the drug to bath water.

Dissolve in water and take with orange juice or coke. (this was a recommendation from Peatarian a few months ago on this forum)
 

Jenn

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No, I don't find it harsh...but I when I first started, I only took it with a full glass of milk. You can chew it or dissolve it in liquid first. It has a slightly tart taste to it. I am NOT bothered by tomatoes or OJ though. It's important to take the non coated kind that are just aspirin and starch. The coatings are not good and can cause the aspirin to settle in one spot and then dissolve....causing issues.

I have had one nose bleed, due to too dry air in the house in the 5 years since I have started. I used to get them a lot more often as a kid. It still takes an expert to get enough blood for a blood test.

I personally don't take additional vit K, but I get my milk from the backyard from cows on grass 24/7. Your mileage may vary. ;)

They are easy to split, just take half at first,if there is concern. Take the other half later in the day, if you feel good. Watch for bruising.
 

4peatssake

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Haagendazendiane said:
Although the animal studies that showed stomach damage from aspirin often used single doses equivalent to 10 or 100 aspirin tablets, the slight irritation produced by a normal dose of aspirin can be minimized by dissolving the aspirin in water. The stomach develops a tolerance for aspirin over a period of a few days, allowing the dose to be increased if necessary. And both aspirin and salicylic acid can be absorbed through the skin, so rheumatic problems have been treated by adding the drug to bath water.

Dissolve in water and take with orange juice or coke. (this was a recommendation from Peatarian a few months ago on this forum)

Jenn said:
No, I don't find it harsh...but I when I first started, I only took it with a full glass of milk. You can chew it or dissolve it in liquid first. It has a slightly tart taste to it. I am NOT bothered by tomatoes or OJ though. It's important to take the non coated kind that are just aspirin and starch. The coatings are not good and can cause the aspirin to settle in one spot and then dissolve....causing issues.

I have had one nose bleed, due to too dry air in the house in the 5 years since I have started. I used to get them a lot more often as a kid. It still takes an expert to get enough blood for a blood test.

I personally don't take additional vit K, but I get my milk from the backyard from cows on grass 24/7. Your mileage may vary. ;)

They are easy to split, just take half at first,if there is concern. Take the other half later in the day, if you feel good. Watch for bruising.

Thank you both for this input. I am fine with both OJ and tomatoes (no stomach issues). This body is hearty and tough! ;) So I think I will be fine. Thanks for the tip on bruising, will watch for that. I'm quite fair skinned so bruising shows up noticeably.

Geez, I just rechecked the bottle and I was sure I got non coating, now I see this stuff has a "thin coating." Ah balderdash. I searched high and low for this and it's still wrong!! :lol:

Does anyone know where to get asa powder? I think that's what RP uses. Finding pure products with simple agreements is like trying to find an analog phone any more!!! :lol:
 

jyb

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4peatssake said:
Jenn do you find the aspirin harsh on your stomach and if so how do you mitigate that? RP mentioned aspirin as possibly being beneficial for me and I've been staring at a bottle of it beside my pc for several weeks wondering if I should take it. I have a history of nosebleeds (so severe in childhood I had my nose cauterized. :shock: ) so have been rather reticent. I am taking Vit K (thorne liquid) every 2-3 days.

I was thinking of starting with a single dose of 325 mg with my morning cup of jo!

I also have thorne K2. I think 1 drop (1mcg K2) per 325mg aspirin tablet is more than enough, although I take even more just to be sure. I'm never getting nosebleed if I do that.

If you wanted to be cautious, stay with 325mg or less per day and for a week (with K), as it can take several days to notice an increased need for K (if I don't take K, then I'll notice nosebleed after a few days of taking 325mg aspirin).

I tried high doses of aspirin (6-10 tablets at once) without side effects if I follow that rule. I don't usually take such a high amount, since its not clear whether its safe (see aspirin thread - debate on gut permeability following prostaglandin suppression).
 

4peatssake

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jyb said:
4peatssake said:
Jenn do you find the aspirin harsh on your stomach and if so how do you mitigate that? RP mentioned aspirin as possibly being beneficial for me and I've been staring at a bottle of it beside my pc for several weeks wondering if I should take it. I have a history of nosebleeds (so severe in childhood I had my nose cauterized. :shock: ) so have been rather reticent. I am taking Vit K (thorne liquid) every 2-3 days.

I was thinking of starting with a single dose of 325 mg with my morning cup of jo!

I also have thorne K2. I think 1 drop (1mcg K2) per 325mg aspirin tablet is more than enough, although I take even more just to be sure. I'm never getting nosebleed if I do that.

If you wanted to be cautious, stay with 325mg or less per day and for a week (with K), as it can take several days to notice an increased need for K (if I don't take K, then I'll notice nosebleed after a few days of taking 325mg aspirin).

I tried high doses of aspirin (6-10 tablets at once) without side effects if I follow that rule. I don't usually take such a high amount, since its not clear whether its safe (see aspirin thread - debate on gut permeability following prostaglandin suppression).

Thanks jyb, this is very helpful. I'll go look up the other thread. I do think the aspirin will be beneficial for me but want to be sure to avoid any nosebleeds!
 

charlie

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Agree with HDD, dissolve in water then take aspirin. Make sure you get the starch only aspirin which is available at the dollar store, walmart in a special section and it cost like 88 cents for 175 I think, and also you can get it on the supplement list here at the forum. Pure crystals even better.

I would also split the dose into 2, but even 4 would be good as it would spread out the effects and keep the irritation if any low from the start. Be careful taking at bedtime because it does ramp up the metabolism and can cause sleep issues.
 

4peatssake

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Charlie said:
Agree with HDD, dissolve in water then take aspirin. Make sure you get the starch only aspirin which is available at the dollar store, walmart in a special section and it cost like 88 cents for 175 I think, and also you can get it on the supplement list here at the forum. Pure crystals even better.

I would also split the dose into 2, but even 4 would be good as it would spread out the effects and keep the irritation if any low from the start. Be careful taking at bedtime because it does ramp up the metabolism and can cause sleep issues.

Thank you Charlie! Much appreciated! :thumbup
 

jyb

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Use warm not cold water so that the starch (minimal ingredients) aspirin dissolves in water, but not too hot as it could destroy the molecule. And as mentioned, to be drank after a meal (or drink) to reduce irritation.
 

Jenn

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It usually take me 3 days to see results from any change. I intentionally take aspirin and coffee right before bed....but I also take magnesium too. Play with it. Your mileage may vary.

I've been doing this a while, what worked for me in the beginning is not the same as now, needs change.
 

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Edward

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Caffeine in a rather narrow context can have a goitrogen effect via a cascade effect but in and of itself no. If one is drinking coffee and glycogen is depleted this would cause release of free fatty acids much like one would experience during low-carbohydrate dieting followed by the cascade of stress hormones. The cascade of stress hormones plus the release free fatty acids in a glycogen depleted state would generate ketones, ketones have the effect of driving down blood glucose which would cause temporary physiological insulin resistance to spare glucose for the brain. Physiological insulin resistance would then cause temporary physiological hypothyroidism because glycogen is needed to convert T4 into T3, this would have a thyroid suppressing effect. But it is the context that is important, it is the metabolic stimulation of caffeine in a glycogen depleted state that has the goitrogen effect, not the caffeine itself. Any stimulant would have the same effect.

If coffee does not give a warming or neutral effect, then it is likely that glycogen is depleted. However, in some circumstances coffee can have a warming effect while glycogen is depleted, much like the honeymoon period during low-carbohydrate dieting where some people feel warm, this warmth results from two things: peroxisomal beta-oxidation of PUFA is a exothermic reaction that releases heat, and mitochondrial beta-oxidation of saturated fats stimulates the thyroid and generates metabolic heat. In that scenario there is enough stored saturated fat to keep the metabolism happy; the diabetic metabolic pathway i.e. "fat burning" becomes problematic if PUFA is being burned, when PUFA is being burned this pathway becomes problematic because of the stress of burning PUFA and the resulting cascade of stress hormones.

In a glycogen depleted state caffeine also can induce peroxisomal and mitochondrial biogenesis much like during low-carbohydrate dieting, this occurs because energy metabolism becomes inefficient, when this happens the cells become stressed and take up calcium, intracellular calcium becomes problematic and inhibits energy production, the cell responds to this energy bottleneck through the biogenesis of peroxisomes and mitochondria or dying, an analogy would be when a large city experiences a rolling blackout, the only way to meet the energy requirements of the city is to lower power consumption (hypothyroidism) or pull power from other power stations. In a stressed state the cells have to meet the energy demands for dealing with stress so they in effect generate more energy by biogenesis of the energy producing organelles. Though the biogenesis of energy producing organelles is adaptive and positive in that context, it is nonetheless a stress response, and therefore if that context is chronically maintained eventually you will begin to burn through muscle, burning amino acids from muscle tissue is inefficient and generates lactate, cancer cells feed off amino acids, amino acids cannot bypass glycolysis like fructose which inhibits lactate production.

In other words, being chronically glycogen depleted and drinking coffee probably isn't a good idea. Nonetheless, in the short term coffee, particularly the niacin could help reduce that stress by suppressing free fatty acids, but eventually energy has to come from somewhere.
 

charlie

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Edward, thank you for taking the time to explain that! :thankyou
 
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