Why Ray Recommends Eating Lots Of Calcium

Discussion in 'Minerals' started by haidut, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    - Review of the Dietary Reference Intake for Calcium: Where Do We Go From Here?

    "There is sufficient evidence to support the role of exercise in increasing bone mass throughout adolescence and early adulthood and at least preventing bone loss in post-menopausal women.[32, 33] Likewise, the lack of exercise, as seen in lengthy immobilization or exposure to an antigravity environment, has resulted in bone mass loss despite what was considered to be an adequate calcium intake. At the time the FNB [Fine Needle Biopsy] set the AI [Artificial Intelligence] there was insufficient evidence to suggest that physically active individuals have different calcium requirements than more sedentary persons. Studies since the committee met indicated that both very short- and long-term immobilization resulted in increased bone resorption and decreased bone formation even with adequate or elevated calcium intakes.[34, 35, 36]"​
     
  2. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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  3. Amazoniac

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    Mostly on short-term effects, yet already enough to detect issues:

    - High phosphorus intakes acutely and negatively affect Ca and bone metabolism in a dose-dependent manner in healthy young females
    - Increased calcium intake does not completely counteract the effects of increased phosphorus intake on bone: An acute dose-response study in healthy females
    - Consequences of a high phosphorus intake on mineral metabolism and bone remodeling in dependence of calcium intake in healthy subjects – a randomized placebo-controlled human intervention study
    - Low calcium:phosphorus ratio in habitual diets affects serum parathyroid hormone concentration and calcium metabolism in healthy women with adequate calcium intake

    "In summary, low dietary Ca:P ratios in habitual diets of wealthy women affected both S-PTH and Ca metabolism. Interestingly, the lowest Ca:P quartile differed from all other quartiles in a negative manner. The results suggested that such low Ca:P ratios (Ca:P molar ratio ≤0·50 [Table 1]) in diets may disturb Ca metabolism and negatively affect bone in wealthy subjects, as indicated by higher S-PTH and U-Ca levels together. However, whether it is necessary to reach a Ca:P molar ratio of 1 in diets is unknown. Even participants with a high dietary Ca intake did not achieve the suggested Ca:P ratio of 1. The present results imply that a Ca:P molar ratio higher than 0·50 [× 1.3 (from 40/31) for weight ratio] is sufficient when dietary Ca intake is at the recommended level. However, higher Ca:P ratios might be needed if dietary Ca intake drops markedly below the nutritional recommendations. The present study also indicated that consumption of a large excess of dietary P is not optimal for mineral metabolism and bone health. In Western diets, low Ca:P ratios are common. Thus, more attention should be focused on decreasing excessively high P intake and increasing Ca intake to meet dietary guidelines."​

    - Increasing Dietary Phosphorus Intake from Food Additives: Potential for Negative Impact on Bone Health


    - The importance of being subtle: small changes in calcium homeostasis control cognitive decline in normal aging
     
  4. cinderella

    cinderella Member

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    @Amazoniac
    I've stopped consuming dairy products over 3 months ago. I don't think I get enough Calcium from plants. What will happen to me?
    On the positive side, I no longer have eye bags and my facial skin and bottom of my feet are no longer yellow. It would be great to hear your thoughts. Thank you.
     
  5. ExCarniv

    ExCarniv Member

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    Try eggshells powder for calcium if you don't want/tolerate dairy.

    Calcium from plants have low bioavailability.
     
  6. cinderella

    cinderella Member

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    Thank you, good idea. I prepared eggshell powder in the past at home but prefer to buy this time. Do you recommend any brand?
     
  7. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Generalized inflammation over time, culminating in irreversible death.

    Garrett has shown humanity that milk is unsuitable for our consumption, so toxic in a sense, and added to this, they contaminate it with poison A and venom D: almost a miracle to be alive after a cup. This is part of a greater plan to zombify the population, make everyone sick, support the pharmaceutical industry, and use cadavers as steps to get to the top.

    And it's with this traumatizing image that we proceed..

    Most of us here are trying to improve wealth one way or another, and since what's often needed is the abundance of a super diet for regeneration, calcium will eventually be limiting.
    What can be deposited in bones during a shortage if the body is being forced to mobilize it?
    - Is Vitamin D Supplementation Even Neccessary
    The remarkable effects are usually when people are truly deficient in venom D, you can't rely on it to make up for a diet that's too poor in calcium. And factors such as alkalinity gain importance in these situations, same for protein and table salt.
    Antidote K supplementation won't be as productive when calcium is missing.


    If the person has been low on it for too long, it must require some adaptation first, so I would start gradually. For those that became susceptible to adverse effects, it's worth applying the same precautionary measures from venom D.

    Applying mk-4 topically will leave your tissues nourished before the calcium is digested, at the same time you can take a bit of longer-chain ones (such mk-7) for remaining in the circulation for more time and hopefully closing the 'interdigestive' gaps; they will free up mk-4 for other functions nevertheless, so it's a good practice.

    Pairing it with magnesium is also a nice idea. Many people already supplement it, but taking them together might reduce the adsorption of contaminants with not much interference in magnesium absorption, provided that you're not taking a femoral amount. The efficiency of adsorption decreases as their dose increases, by this logic you would only consume a few tens of milligrams. However, what dictates the sensible range is when there's a sharp drop in efficiency, making you waste a lot of the nutrient once you get much more than that. At their optimal meal intake, you'll end up with a ratio of Ca 2-3:1 Mg; it can be 300 mg with 100 mg, or 350 mg with 150 mg, for example. There are specific benefits in exceeding either, but it's preferable to start from something like this.

    Synthetic calcium carbonate has in general more impurities than eggshell, Franklin has mentioned this, visit Daniel's page or just search for it if you will.
    Pulverized eggshell is decent, but not for everyone, it can be indigestive. Jennifer trained me that it's possible to dissolve it with acids (such as vinegar or citric juices), you can find discussions on forms throughout the porus.

    What hasn't been given much attention is that it's preferable to work with intact pieces than powder, this way you can remove the (unreacted) sur of the plus without problems after they was acted upon.
    Amounts can be tricky as well:
    - Jennifer's Cellular Regeneration Log

    Some calcium carbonate leaves the stomach intact and is adsorbed as such. Problems from it are more common than with the milder (non-industrial) alternatives.
    - Eggshell Calcium, Bloodshot Eyes, Bleeding Gums


    You can have different effects depending on the form of calcium phosphate as vvc11:

    - 190. Calcium and magnesium phosphates tribasic (FAO Nutrition Meetings Report Series 46a)

    "Calcium phosphates insoluble in water and constitute the following series: calcium phosphate (monobasic) which is used as acidulant and mineral supplement; calcium phosphate (dibasic) is used as dietary supplement in doses of 1 g orally; calcium phosphate (tribasic) is used as gastric antacid in doses of 1 g orally; and bone phosphate. Metabolically they behave as sources of calcium and phosphate ions. These compounds need not be considered separately from other monophosphates from the toxicological point of view."​

    - Calcium phosphate - Wikipedia

    If I'm not wrong, one of the potassium forms that Gerson used was phosphate monobasic.


    It's not necessary to use venom D with calcium in the same meal, it's safer to take them separately. But if the person insists on the combination, I would use very small doses of venom D or apply it on skin (it will also allow you to wash it in case you sense that the dose wasn't right). Juices are a very good option to add in one or the other because of the nutrients and especially the dilution (lets the body restore balance with more ease); depending on the juice, you might even get enough poison A to work together with venom D.

    It's worth being mindful about B-vitamins, collagen, antidote C, copper, taurine, boron, silicon, etc, because their insufficiency can affect calcium metabolism.
     
  8. cinderella

    cinderella Member

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    Thank you so much for your insightful reply, @Amazoniac ! I found it so helpful!
    I found Red Algae Calcium powder made by NOW foods which is also a rich source of other minerals and less contaminated and more nutrient dense than coral calcium powder; as an alternative to eggshell powder. What do you think?
    I bought vitamin D3 made by Thorne twice. I kept them in the fridge and both times the content went rancid before the expiry date. I don't have any atm. Even the True K2 from Health Natura went rancid.
     
  9. cinderella

    cinderella Member

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  10. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Have you read the label? It doesn't seem reliable and I can't think of a reason to favor it over eggshells. It isn't possible for you save them for this purpose? It's safer to obtain trace minerals elsewhere.
    Not sure if there are vendors selling high-quality eggshells, but it's something that @LifeGivingStore could offer.

    The spoilage could be due to condensation, but for the Thorne products it's strange because (as far as I know) their dropper is currently attached to the bottle.

    You're probably better off calcium supplementation if not mindful about the details and your reaction to it.
     
  11. cinderella

    cinderella Member

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    Thank you for the information, @Amazoniac
    I will choose the eggshell powder then.
    Do you consume dairy products?
     
  12. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    When I consume them, a Rube Goldberg arrangement is set up in a way that my immediate collapse is the trigger and the sequence of events conclude at the 'dial' button with 911 ready on the screen. Reasoning before and after.

    If you decide to react it with acids, in case it doesn't work as expected with vinegar, you can try to sterilize (vinegar) before the hands.

    Preparing fruit gelatin and adding the calcium must be a great way to consume it. Or instead of the fruit, something salty like this.

    It's a good idea to use the lowest amount that maximizes the benefit and not neglect the cofactors..

    - The Western-Style Diet, Calcium Deficiency and Chronic Disease | ResearchingAlltheAvailableGates

    "Epithelial cells from various sources (including the colon) proliferate optimally over a broad range of low-calcium concentrations (0.05-0.5 mM). Under these conditions, cells do not express features of the differentiated state. As the calcium concentration is increased above 0.5 mM, differentiation is induced. Key features include induction of E-cadherin synthesis; its translocation from the cytoplasm to the cell surface; and formation of the cell surface adhesion complex. This process is readily reversible. When calcium is removed, cells revert to an undifferentiated state. This is depicted in Figure 1."

    "Two consequences of calcium-induced differentiation include: i) reduced proliferation and ii) formation of the epithelial barrier. In regard to proliferation, β-catenin is sequestered in the adhesion complex along with E-cadherin. This leads to decreased β-catenin movement into the nucleus where it otherwise functions as a Wnt-pathway (growth-promoting) enhancer [36-38]. The end-result is decreased proliferation. Equally important, E-cadherin - mediated cell-cell cohesion allows the differentiated epithelial cells to form a cohesive cell sheet (Figure 1). This is essential for barrier protein synthesis and formation of barrier structures (tight junctures and desmosomes [?]) [39]."

    "Defective barrier function in the gastrointestinal tract and chronic inflammation go “hand in hand”. Commonly, it is thought that chronic inflammation is responsible for barrier breakdown, but it is more likely that poor barrier function contributes to the tendency toward inflammation [40]. In the absence of an effective barrier, bacteria, bacterial products, toxins and food allergens can all gain access to the interstitium. Inflammation in the gastro-intestinal tract and carcinogenesis in the colon are linked [41] and decreased inflammation can contribute to reduced tumor incidence with calcium."

    "While calcium-induced tumor suppression could reflect a direct action on intracellular (growth-regulating) signaling pathways or result from inhibition of chronic inflammation in the gastrointestinal tract, these are not the only ways in which calcium might act. Calcium may be anti-carcinogenic by altering luminal pH with an effect on the microbial community [42] or by precipitating carcinogenic bile acids in the gastrointestinal tract [43]. These mechanisms are not mutually exclusive."

    "[..]all of the diets in our studies contained venom D (120 IU/kg), suggesting that in the absence of an adequate supply of calcium, this amount of vitamin D, by itself, was not effective."

    "Although suppression of growth-regulating signaling pathways or effects on carcinogenic bile acids might explain anti-carcinogenicity in the colon, a reduction in chronic inflammation could have broader effects. Our own studies not only demonstrated reduced colon polyp formation but also showed that mineral supplementation protected mice against bone loss [51,52] and reduced the incidence and severity of ulcerative dermatitis [53]. Perhaps most interesting, during the course of our studies, we observed a high incidence of liver tumor formation in mice on the Western-style diet [54]. Unlike what was observed with colon polyps (where both males and females were susceptible), virtually all of the liver tumors were in males. When these lesions were examined histologically, they encompassed a wide range of presentations - from large non- regenerative and regenerative hyperplastic nodules to premalignant hepatic adenomas and fully-malignant hepatocellular carcinomas. Other manifestations of liver injury, i.e., inflammation, and ballooning degeneration of hepatocytes, along with areas of necrosis and fibrosis - were also observed. In male mice on the mineral-supplemented Western diet, tumor formation was substantially reduced (48% incidence without supplement versus 12% incidence in supplement-fed mice, against a background incidence of 16% for male mice on the rodent chow diet). Inflammation and hepatocyte necrosis were also reduced."

    "While our studies may have been the first to document the beneficial effects of calcium in the liver, previous studies have shown a reduction in liver fibrosis by venom D [55]. The beneficial effects of venom D were presumed to reflect interference with transforming growth factor-β signaling, with little regard to its role in calcium uptake and utilization."

    "To the extent that the Western-style diet is a problem of calcium deficiency, the solution would seem obvious - provide a sufficient amount of calcium, preferably as part of a healthful diet, but as a supplement where dietary improvement fails. The use of calcium supplements (alone and in conjunction with other nutrients) is already widespread. Their primary use is in prevention of bone loss and osteoporosis, but people utilize calcium supplements to reduce risk of colon polyp formation or to mitigate other health concerns. Without minimizing the value of calcium supplementation, there are a number of issues that should be considered. Beyond the usual - bioavailability and tolerability - is the potential for adverse consequences at high doses. For example, a meta-analysis of calcium supplement use data concluded that a risk of cardiovascular events did exist for the highest doses of supplement use [57]. An association between calcium supplement intake (self-reported) and macular degeneration in the elderly has also been reported [58]. Perhaps more troubling is the positive correlation in some studies between calcium intake and prostate cancer [59-61]. Whether the benefits of calcium supplement use outweigh potential risks has to be determined; sometimes on a case by case basis. Equally important is the reality that no critical nutrient, including calcium, functions in a vacuum. How well calcium from any source performs depends on the presence (at appropriate levels) or absence of other nutrients. Importance of vitamin D to calcium uptake from the gastrointestinal tract and at the cellular level is well-known [18-21]."

    "Less well-known but, perhaps, equally important is the level of other important minerals. Magnesium, for example, has little chemopreventive activity by itself, but the ratio of magnesium to calcium has been shown to be important for calcium chemoprevention in the colon [62]. Magnesium is probably not unique. However, since magnesium is present in substantial amounts, it is possible to establish this interaction by creating an experimental deficiency and measuring the consequences. This is not the case with other potentially important divalent or trivalent cationic trace elements; some of which are present in truly “trace” amounts. The lanthanide elements constitute one such group. The lanthanides, because of their similarity to calcium in terms of orbital size and electronic configuration [63,64], interact with calcium-binding sites on proteins, often with higher affinity than calcium itself. Calcium channel proteins [65-67] and proteins that are part of calcium-exchangers [68] have been shown to bind lanthanide elements - leading to either enhanced or inhibited function (altered calcium influx-efflux). The extracellular calcium-sensing receptor (CaSR) is another calcium-binding protein capable of high-affinity lanthanide binding [69-71]. This protein, which is sensitive to tiny changes in the extracellular calcium concentration, plays a critical role in colon epithelial cell growth control [72-76]. Our own past studies have shown that in the presence of gadolinium (lanthanide family [made-up] member), there is a “left-shift” in the response to calcium. That is, CaSR is up-regulated [73,74] and growth-suppression occurs at lower calcium concentrations than would otherwise occur [77]."

    "While many experimental approaches have utilized gadolinium as a representative of the lanthanide family, we conducted a survey study in which all 14 naturally-occurring lanthanide elements were compared for ability to suppress epithelial cell proliferation [78]. Only three members in the entire family (terbium, dysprosium and ytterbium [???]) failed to have significant activity at a concentration of 100 μM. At the other extreme, the most potent lanthanides (thulium, gadolinium and samarium [¿?¿]) had activity at 5-10 μM. The capacity to modify response to calcium was not seen with several other divalent or trivalent cationic trace elements including aluminum, iron (ferrous and ferric), cobalt, copper, nickel, magnesium, manganese and zinc. Thus, the lanthanides appear to function through a mechanism that is not shared by many other cationic trace elements. This is not to suggest, however, that the lanthanides are unique. Two relatively abundant cationic elements (barium and strontium) are CaSR activators [70,71,79]. Of interest, it appears that strontium activation of CaSR and activation by calcium do not lead to identical signaling events-providing a rationale for potential co-operativity [80]."

    "The question is not whether certain minor trace elements can modulate responses to calcium, but whether they are present (as a group) at circulating levels or tissue levels sufficient to accomplish this task in the livings. With the lanthanides, at least, this question will be difficult to address since the in vivo levels of individual lanthanide elements are low and not routinely measured. One can assume, perhaps, that since many of these trace elements are nutritionally associated with calcium, a diet that is deficient in calcium might also be deficient in these other trace elements, as well. The implication is that the mineral composition of a healthy diet cannot easily be duplicated in a supplement; no matter how well-thought-out it is."​
     
  13. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    Maple syrup is actually somewhat of a decent source of calcium. Of course I have more maple syrup than likely anyone on these forums, so its a viable main source of calcium for me but maybe not others. I frequently have 1-2 cups of it a day lol. Maple syrup is the carbohydrate fit for the gods though, its why I have so much. It's the most benign and most powerful energy boosting carb out of any other I've tried.
     
  14. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    Yeah we had some conversations the other week or so about sugars right? I no longer worry about the possible fatting up of the liver from sugar. I literally can not get by without sugar/fructose so I just can't give it up. I tried a couple of days of more pure/straight glucose and it didn't work well for me, I started getting worse--nightmares, brain fog, zero motivation, body temperatures worsened, and more. Tried some pure glucose powder, felt really bad from that, and I know too much starch makes me feel really bad instead. So yeah, sugar is back for me, haha.

    I'm focusing my attention on other techniques to de-fat the liver instead then. Organ meats (liver in particular--I no longer eat muscle meats at all, they make my health worse), small dose thyroid (turned out I had some old Thyroid w/ liver supplement, might as well use it since I have it lol), lots of sleep (last night had 12 hr sleep), and relaxation, epsomsalt/baking soda baths, sunlight where possible, turning off internet/computer use or at least not using at much in particular trying to lower my TV show/video game usage to name a few. We'll see how this goes. I'm continuing to use B vitamins tho and sometimes choline supplementation as well.
     
  15. lampofred

    lampofred Member

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    Have you ever gotten tested for diabetes? The inability to handle pure glucose and the need for such large amounts of fructose might mean you are not burning glucose and instead are converting fructose to fat and then burning the fat for energy, which releases a lot of heat, hence the higher temps you are achieving...
     
  16. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    Insulin resistance / hypothyroid / diabetes / obesity / etc. definitely all go hand in hand for sure. I no doubt have at least pre-diabetes but it doesn't change my strategy at all.
     
  17. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    :singing:

    LR2 should've been mentioned:

    upload_2019-8-22_19-36-26.png
    Source: the internet.
     
  18. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I don't understand the insistence on the carbonate form, it's relegated as a magnesium supplement. A private message with a forum pimp made me wonder if it's possible to prepare bicarbonate water with the addition of calcium as well. But then you'd have to let go of the better purity of eggshells.

    Some of the publications below are not recent, but serve to reinforce that the issue is more complex than mere solubility. Nevertheless, when it's complexed with organic acids, it tends to be superior and without the potential adverse effects.

    There are some experiments that noted increased calcium excretion with citrate (as Raj remarked) but given that the aqsordtion is often better with this form, it's compensated. PTH ends up better suppressed with it anyway.

    With frequent use of (eggshell) calcium carbonate, people turn into unstoppable burping machines*, digestion in those that don't produce enough acid can be further complicated, induce gut or eyes irritation (a clear manifestation of its problematic nature that might affect other parts more subtly), more likely to cause the alkali syndrome (it's the salt that's often associated with it), add a taste of.. sand to the meals, it's more constipating, and other possibilities than I'm not remembering now.

    *If you need alkalinization, go straight to the bicarbonate salts because they is processed faster and you have more control over.


    - Tricalcium citrate (TCC) and health

    "[..]solubility and bioavailability depend not only on the chemical composition of the calcium compound, but also on its particle size and of the dosage form. For example, in mice “nano” CaCO3 and “nano” TCC (mean particle sizes 151±19/398±4nm) were more bioavailable than the corresponding “micro” compounds (particle sizes 3773±759/1793±382nm),[48] whereas administration of calcium supplements in the form of firmly pressed tablets seems to reduce its bioavailability compared to a powdered calcium supplement.[49]"

    "Differential absorption kinetics of calcium from food or from supplements as well as differences between various calcium salts are manifested in earlier and higher rises of serum calcium with supplemental calcium, in a larger total amount of calcium absorbed from food[58] and significant differences in the time course of increases in serum calcium and reactive decreases in serum PTH (citrate>carbonate).[59]"

    "It is frequently claimed that especially due to a relatively high solubility TCC has a better bioavailability than sparingly soluble calcium salts such as CaCO3. This needs to be scrutinized for several reasons:"

    "Ionic TCC is indeed poorly soluble in water at 18°C (850mg/l). By comparison, the aqueous solubility of CaCO3 is 14mg/l at 20°C. However, the comparison of the solubility’s of TCC and CaCO3 in pure water is not representative of physiological condition, as an unbuffered TCC solution is acidic (pH 5.6), whereas the CaCO3 solution reacts alkaline (pH 8.5)."

    "Solubility of TCC and CaCO3 is pH dependent. It decreases with increasing pH, that is, from the duodenum (pH~6.0) and proximal jejunum (pH~6.6) up to the terminal ileum (pH 7.5). Below pH 6.5 (or only below pH 7.5 at atmospheric pCO2; Figure 3), the solubility of CaCO3 is greater than that of TCC. Above pH 6.6, that means from the middle of the jejunum, the solubility of TCC exceeds that of CaCO3.[60,61]"

    upload_2019-9-5_8-50-18.png
    This time is not my fault, it was blurred in the document.​

    "Also poorly soluble calcium compounds and calcium complexes such as the water-soluble dicitrato calcium complex (Figure 4) may provide sufficient calcium ions for absorption, because trans- and paracellular calcium absorption are irreversible processes. Therefore the small amount of dissociated Ca2+-ions is permanently removed from the equilibrium, so that dissociation and therefore absorption of calcium ions can continue. This was also demonstrated by investigations in rats, in which calcium was indeed most readily absorbed in the form of Ca2+-ions, but soluble citrate complexes in the duodenum and cecum were absorbed as well.[62] Moreover, dissociation of poorly soluble calcium compounds, and thus concentration of Ca2+-ions in the mucosa, could be increased by microbial (intestinal microbiota, pro- and prebiotics) formed acids."

    "With adequate gastric juice production also poorly or moderately soluble calcium compounds like CaO, CaCO3 or TCC are converted into easily soluble CaCl2 (better said: into Ca2+- and Cl- ions) by HCl in the stomach. In the more alkaline environment (pH 6-7.5) of the small intestine, CaCl2 is converted back into CaCO3/Ca(HCO3)2 by the bicarbonate ions in the pancreatic juice. Therefore, the solubility of the calcium supplement should have no impact on its intestinal absorption, as has been pointed out in a number of publications.[63]"

    [63] Absorbability of calcium sources: The limited role of solubility

    "[..]results show that solubility of a calcium salt is related to its absorbability, but the association is relatively weak. Substances differing in solubility by as much as a factor of 100 differ in their mean absorbability by less than even intra-individual variation for any given salt [20]. Indeed, the meal effect we have described elsewhere [10] and which is suggested in the data of Figure 1, has at least as much influence on absorbability of a salt such as calcium carbonate as would substitution of a salt two orders of magnitude more soluble."

    "It is true that, typically, at least some of the ingested calcium will be dissolved in stomach acid. It is also true that even the most insoluble of the tested sources is relatively more soluble under such conditions. However, absorption of calcium does not take place from the stomach but from the small intestine, and mainly from the jejunum and ileum, where pH is commonly above 6.5. Under these conditions, the ions dissolved in the stomach will reassociate and reprecipitate to varying degrees, though the extent to which this will occur is unknown. Ionic strength of the intestinal contents is so high and there are so many potential complexing sites on suspended but undissolved materials, that bench conditions are not particularly relevant, whatever the pH. In any event, an explanation that relies on slow or incomplete reprecipitation places gastric acid solubilization in a central position in the absorptive scheme. However, as already noted, calcium carbonate is absorbed essentially normally in persons with pentagastrin-resistent or pharmacologically induced achlorhydria [5, 6], at least so long as the salt is co-ingested with food [5, 10]. Hence, though gastric acid may be involved, when and if secreted, it cannot be essential for absorption of even the less soluble calcium salts. Clearly, therefore, under at least some conditions, absorption proceeds in the probable absence of solubilization of the salt concerned."

    "It may be that even the weak solubility relationship we report here is coincidental. The focus on solubility arises out of an unexamined premise that absorption of a cation takes place as a free, dissociated, charged ion. This may be partly true, but there is evidence that bisglycinocalcium, and possibly other chelates, are absorbed as an intact complex [22]. Similarly, our finding of the absence of tracer exchange during oxalate absorption, described elsewhere [7], also suggests absorption without prior dissociation. If this is true at both extremes of the solubility spectrum, what may be occurring in the middle?"

    "The issue is complicated still further in that, to the extent that dissociation may be important, solubility would not be expected to be a good predictor of absorbability. Thus, a relatively soluble salt such as calcium citrate, or an even more soluble complex salt such as CCM, binds its calcium relatively tightly, which may partially explain why its absorbability is not proportionate to its solubility. However, dissociation is itself not a very useful concept in the complex milieu of the intestinal contents, as it cannot readily be measured or empirically approximated under physiologically relevant conditions."

    "Cart and Shangraw [23] have stressed the importance of disintegration in regard to the availability of a calcium supplement tablet, and this emphasis seems preeminently correct. However, the findings reported here raise doubt about the importance of a distinct dissolution standard [2], especially when both calcium oxalate and hydroxyapatite--generally considered to be at the nadir of insolubility--exhibit absorbability values from one-fourth to one-third as good as the most soluble preparations available."

    "The relative weakness of the solubility paradigm is evident also in the data for both spinach and bone meal. In each food source there is a single, dominant calcium species. Yet knowledge of the absorbability of that species does not predict calcium absorbability from the food concerned. The oxalate and apatite salts have similar intrinsic solubilities and absorbabilities. Yet, as we have shown previously, spinach calcium is significantly less well absorbed than oxalate calcium [7, 8], and, as we show here, bone meal calcium is substantially better absorbed than hydroxyapatite. The chemicals differ in absorbability by a factor of less than 2x whereas the foods differ by more than 5x."​

    "Because of these different and sometimes contradictory influencing factors a superior or at least equal bioavailability of TCC compared to CaCO3 cannot be derived by theoretical considerations, but has to be examined in clinical trials."

    upload_2019-9-5_8-50-28.png

    upload_2019-9-5_8-50-34.png

    "Furthermore, often mentioned advantages of TCC compared to CaCO3 are the following:"

    "For optimum absorption and bioavailability, CaCO3 but not TCC requires gastric acid. Therefore, and particularly when not administered as part of a meal, CaCO3 may not be the best supplement in achlorhydric subjects, in elderly people with impaired gastric acid production or in patients using gastric acid inhibitors.[67]"

    "Dissolution of CaCO3 but not of TCC in the stomach is associated with the release of gaseous LR2 (~0.5 l per 1000mg carbonate) which may cause some discomfort in sensitive people."

    "In response to the neutralization of gastric acid by CaCO3, calcium carbonate (but not the citrate) can cause rebound hyperacidity, i.e. the stomach overcompensates for the high dose of alkaline calcium carbonate by the secretion of more acid.[83]"

    "Other side effects, which are attributed rather to calcium carbonate than to the citrate, are CaCO3 gallstones (5-30% of all gallstones in adults and 25% in children are CaCO3 gallstones)[84] and a condition that is called the calcium-alkali syndrome (CAS; see section 6.2.)."

    "Calcium carbonate is reported to cause gastrointestinal complaints (upper gastrointestinal gas, bloating or constipation) in sensitive persons,[160] which for chemical reasons do not occur with TCC [Section 4.5]."​

    These kind of posts are more anti-carbonate, than pro-citrate. I might change my mind about it in the future, but for now, everything points to it being a questionable option with more reliable alternatives available. For some reason there's a lot more dedication in finding a suitable magnesium than calcium salt.

    @Wagner83
     
  19. Wagner83

    Wagner83 Member

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    We had discussed it before and I remember a naturopath who was shredded to piecesashit after he labelled calcium in water as a dangerous form. Travis, yourself and haidut disagreed. For the French speakers and the goggle translators what the naturopath said sounded like this. Some time after you posted about a study mentioning how hard water was associated with calcification. I have access to sparkling water naturally rich in calcium and magnesium. I have cooked with it a few times but for some reason felt the effects were negative. What do you think about this form of calcium supplementation? If it's bad then why would any form of calcium supplement other than food be fine to ingest? Westside went to great length to drink distilled water only.
     
  20. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    If the person finds hard water, it's worth a try because it will depend on what's causing the hardness and (in case it's used for cooking) how it interacts with foods. Various plants leach their acids into water (you can confirm this by adding bicarbonate salts to teas/broths).

    When calcium carbonate/hydroxide is the predominant form (instead of an even distribution that includes greater amounts as sulfate and chloride), it can be more difficult to react and might lead to issues, but I suspect it would still be less problematic than (undissolved) eggshells for being more physically accessible.
    If this is the case, your food might end up with a concentrated antacid after cooking and it can be annoying.

    Lemon juice has a pH of about 2, and dissolution not only takes long, but tends to be incomplete; might be due to the fact that pH increases as the acid is neutralized, making it less soluble since the solubility of calcium carbonate is high when pH is low. The stomach controls the desired acidity, but at any step of digestion that you focus, it appears to be more demanding and less smooth than the other forms that we have been discussing.

    You can search for 'decarbonation by boiling', 'temporary hardness', to get ideas that can help figure out what's going on with your reaction to the water. Wow is urine pH?

    - Gastric Acid, Calcium Absorption, and Their Impact on Bone Health (scary)

    - Comparative Uptake of Calcium From Milk and a Calcium-Rich Mineral Water in Lactose Intolerant Adults: Implications for Treatment of Osteoporosis
    - Calcium Supplementation with Calcium-Rich Mineral Waters: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of its Bioavailability
    - Absorbability and utility of calcium in mineral waters (also by Roberto from [63])
     
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