Why not Minoxidil? It worked like magic for me. What's really wrong with Minoxidil?

jondoeuk

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Interesting

But doesn't this contradict the DHT theory?

From my understanding - it lowers blood pressure and maybe ACE 2.

losartan, or maybe even spironolactone/eplerenone would be better

Both have been discussed on the forum


No, as DHT interferes (via different genes) with the hair's growth cycle, shrinking and shortening the growth, making it easier to fall out, as well as harder to grow back. Minoxidil is a ''growth stimulant,'' so unless you address the former, nothing will change and over time you will notice the progression. Also, minoxidil will have to be used indefinitely.
 

PeskyPeater

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Dr peat told us in a recent interview that Niacin works to grow hair, turns out the Niacin flush has similarities in action with Minoxidil. After some digging I found this nice article about the niacin flush explaining it, see below : -source

But topical niacinamide actually does not grow hair. bummer have been using this for nothing .->

Topical niacinamide does not stimulate hair growth based on the existing body of evidence​

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ics.12599


MALE PATTERN BALDNESS (Nieves, 2014)
The hair follicle in male pattern baldness balding areas (but not in normal hair of balding men) have chronically high levels of prostaglandin D2 accompanied by lower levels of prostaglandin E2. One way that minoxidil has been found to work is by increasing prostaglandin E2, which in this model “normalizes” the PGD2/PGE2 ratio. However, PGE2 is an inflammatory molecule, so you wouldn’t want to increase it very much, and that is undoubtedly the “secret” of minoxidil, to NORMALIZE the ratio of PGD2/PGE2 so as to eliminate a chronically high PGD2 level.
One of the signals of the catagen phase of hair growth, where hair growth ceases for a time and some hair follicles die, is the release of very large amounts (7 fold higher than baseline) of PGD2 (Nieves, 2014). For that reason, there is interest in blocking PGD2 as a “treatment” for balding. But once again, there is a risk that blocking PGD2’s unwanted effects will also block important beneficial effects of PGD2. This, not surprisingly, is a major problem in medicine, that the change you want in a certain tissue at a certain time and by a certain amount may cause harm elsewhere where you do not want that change.

  • Nieves and Garza. Does prostaglandin D2 hold the cure to male pattern baldness? Exp Dermatol. 23(4):224-7 (2014).

ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE: MICROGLIAL PGE2
(PROSTAGLANDIN E2) SIGNALING VIA EP4
RECEPTOR SUPPRESSES ALZHEIMER
ASSOCIATED INFLAMMATION

A signaling system is reported here (Woodling, 2014) that the authors found to regulate an important protective anti-inflammatory mechanism in the early stages of Alzheimer pathology that decreases significantly (along with its protective effect) as the disease progresses. This is a signal from the prostaglandin PGE2 to its EP4 receptor. See section below on the PGE2 receptor system (EP1, 2, 3, and 4) and new findings suggesting that it is a key to some of the antiinflammatory properties of DHA (docosahexaenoic acid, an omega 3 fatty acid found in fish oils) and possibly that of curcumin.

As reported in a 2012 paper (Ruan, 2012), the EP1 receptor for PGE2 appears to be the key target for DHA and fish oils. There they showed that, in cultured stromal cells, the IC50 for fish oil (that is, the amount that inhibited 50% of the PGE2 activity) was 18 mg/L or 54 μM. The authors calculated that, for a 150 pound human containing 4-5 liters of blood, “consuming 100 mg. fish oil should yield IC50 results.” (This depends, of course, on how the DHA partitions in the blood and tissues, but the calculation provides a crude estimate.) The authors then indicate that they would recommend taking 500-1000 mg fish oil daily on the basis of their findings.

It is interesting to note the opposing effects of PGD2 (the prostaglandin that induces the niacin flush) and PGE2 in the balding model (above), where chronically high PGD2 resulted in suppression of PGE2. A pulsatile release of PGD2 (an ACUTE release) as in the niacin flush would be anti-inflammatory, not pro-inflammatory as with chronically high PGD2. Hence, you could see an INCREASE in PGE2 by suppressing chronically high PGD2. The balding model, in fact, shows hair growth and the cessation of hair follicle death resulting from slight modulation in the ratio of PGD2/PGE2, in which PGE2 is increased, while chronically high PGD2 levels are reduced to “normalize” the ratio. The niacin flush causes pulsatile, not chronic, release of PGD2. It is relevant to note that another paper (see just below) describes CHRONICALLY high PGD2 signalling in full-blown Alzheimer’s. We predict, in fact, that high dose niacin in the immediate-release flushable form will REDUCE the risk of Alzheimer’s, and that getting rid of the flush would probably eliminate this protective effect. If you could get rid of the flush and still retain all the protective benefits of the flush, then fine, go ahead and get rid of it. But so far, the focus seems to be on suppressing the flush without adequately understanding what the flush has to do with the protective effects of immediate release niacin.

Also, note in the urate crystal inflammation model (below) that a 5.2 fold pulsatile (acute) increase in PGD2 was anti-inflammatory, decreasing inflammatory signaling by PGE2. The opposing effects of certain dose and time-dependent releases of PGD2 and PGE2 would appear to be a system to examine closely in relation to Alzheimer’s.

  • Woodling, Wang, Priyam, et al. Suppression of Alzheimer-associated inflammation by microglial prostaglandin-E2 EP4 receptor signaling. J Neurosci. 34(17):5882-94 (2014).
  • Ruan and So. Screening and identification of dietary oils and unsaturated fatty acids in inhibiting inflammatory prostaglandin E. BMC Complement Altern Med.12:143 (2012).
 
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jondoeuk

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Dr peat told us in a recent interview that Niacin works to grow hair, turns out the Niacin flush has similarities in action with Minoxidil. After some digging I found this nice article about the niacin flush explaining it, see below : -source

But topical niacinamide actually does not grow hair. bummer have been using this for nothing .->

Topical niacinamide does not stimulate hair growth based on the existing body of evidence​

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ics.12599

At least in women, two niacin derivatives, octyl nicotinate and tetradecyl nicotinate could increase hair thickness. Then, there are preclinical evidence showing niacinamide downregulates expression of DKK-1, which induces anagen to catagen transition.

Also, clinical data testing a shampoo Double-blind randomized placebo-controlled study of the efficacy and safety of hair loss prevention shampoo containing salicylic acid, panthenol, and niacinamide in alopecia patients - Toxicology and Environmental Health Sciences

Additionally, in this study, comparing the efficacy of adenosine and niacinamide in Japanese men, 32% of the niacinamide treated participants showed the clear improvement in hair thickness https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ics.12235
 

PeskyPeater

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Another thing Dr peat advised for hair growth is carbonic acid inhibitors Curcumin or Sylimarin. But I don't know if he meant oral or topical.

As I found out, sylimarin is actually more water soluble I went ahead and put it together with niacin in the mix.

I took a safe 0.1% niacin together with typical 5% sylimarin extract in alcoholic solution. Final report of the safety assessment of niacinamide and niacin - PubMed

Nice little experiment, will let you know what happens..
 

PeskyPeater

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At least in women, two niacin derivatives, octyl nicotinate and tetradecyl nicotinate could increase hair thickness. Then, there are preclinical evidence showing niacinamide downregulates expression of DKK-1, which induces anagen to catagen transition.

Also, clinical data testing a shampoo Double-blind randomized placebo-controlled study of the efficacy and safety of hair loss prevention shampoo containing salicylic acid, panthenol, and niacinamide in alopecia patients - Toxicology and Environmental Health Sciences

Additionally, in this study, comparing the efficacy of adenosine and niacinamide in Japanese men, 32% of the niacinamide treated participants showed the clear improvement in hair thickness https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ics.12235
yeah I remember reading those articles. Seems DKK-1 is involved in some pathways.
I find the adenosine most interesting though.. here is the PDF
 

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AsuraAcademy

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Any sides with that total of 5mg/day oral Minoxidil ?
I had a puffy face when I started with 13mg/day oral Minoxidil and I was extremely tired all day.
No sides. Just feeling but tired. Also, very rarely have some heart palpitations. I will be mindful of not exerting myself after taking minoxidil as it lowers blood pressure and I don't want to work against it. Always, take it just after taking the food as it will slow down and extend the absorption.
 

Matestube

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No sides. Just feeling but tired. Also, very rarely have some heart palpitations. I will be mindful of not exerting myself after taking minoxidil as it lowers blood pressure and I don't want to work against it. Always, take it just after taking the food as it will slow down and extend the absorption.

I cut back down to 5mg/day, still feeling tired but it's manageable now.
 

Mister

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This study implies it's androgenic


Minoxidil increases 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 5 alpha-reductase activity of cultured human dermal papilla cells from balding scalp.

That being said many anecdotes on the internet how minox lowered their libido and gave them pfs symtoms.
 
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Santosh

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That being said many anecdotes on the internet how minox lowered their libido and gave them pfs symtoms.

Which could be due to a million different factors, including lowered BP.

During the one year I was on Amlodipin, my libido was tanked.
 
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MadnessofMemory

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I have heard quite a few stories, albeit anecdotal, of minoxidil ”feeling” antiandrogenic.

Could be low blood pressure as Santosh said. When mine was low I felt like death all the way around.
 

Santosh

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I have heard quite a few stories, albeit anecdotal, of minoxidil ”feeling” antiandrogenic.

Could be low blood pressure as Santosh said. When mine was low I felt like death all the way around.

That's the problem with anecdotes, people are terrible at tracking exactly everything they take.

I also blamed topical minoxidil for libido loss when I used it for one year back in 2016. Guess what else I was on : melatonin.
I then experimented with both separately, turns out the melatonin was what was giving me all the anti-androgenic symptoms.
 

Mister

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That's the problem with anecdotes, people are terrible at tracking exactly everything they take.

I also blamed topical minoxidil for libido loss when I used it for one year back in 2016. Guess what else I was on : melatonin.
I then experimented with both separately, turns out the melatonin was what was giving me all the anti-androgenic symptoms.
I wouldn't be so dismissive of minox being an anti androgen.

Here are hundreds of people sharing their experience: ROGAINE EXTRA STRENGTH (FOR MEN): Side Effects, Reviews by Patients - AskaPatient.com
 

Borz

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That's the problem with anecdotes, people are terrible at tracking exactly everything they take.

I also blamed topical minoxidil for libido loss when I used it for one year back in 2016. Guess what else I was on : melatonin.
I then experimented with both separately, turns out the melatonin was what was giving me all the anti-androgenic symptoms.
if it was because of lowered BP, wouldn’t it go away after stopping Minoxidil? I have read multiple stories where things don’t go back to normal (like ED issues) long after stopping Minoxidil.
 

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