Why It Might Be Better To Temporarily Gain Weight After Diet Improvement

[Hildy]

Damn, savage! LOL!



100% yes and 100% true!



Yup and yup. We are seeing this even in this very thread.

I see it more as not "calorie restriction" but "choice".....making better food choices. I think when you make a choice to eat something of more nutritive value, you naturally eat less and are more satisfied. But you are not intentionally starving. I know I'm more satisfied when I eat something that is nutriously dense. The thing I hated about keto even though I did lose quickly,is the emphasis that diet puts on eating a LOT of fat......eating ALOT of fat is just not good for you.....eating QUALITY fat which happens to be saturated, is healthy. But NOT tons and tons of it. And Keto emphasizes a LOT of natural fat...way too much IMO.

And about PUFAs's ....if we've read the forum for any length of time, we know the seed oils are not good for us. So we try to minimize them for our health sake. I'm still not convinced though, that eating nuts are bad because they have more PUFA in them. I still think they are nutrious.

 

[_lppaiva]

Interesting. I am having the opposite experience. I under ate on calories for most of my teen's (I was eating about 1800-2000kcal when 16-17) but felt pretty satiated, mostly because I ate the three meals a day of rice beans, salad and meat. Now I have increased my consumption of "metabolic" foods, mainly fruit, potatoes and white sweet potatoes, meat, bone broth/collagen, eggs, milk, cheese and sugar. I am currently at 3000kcal, yet I am still hungry and with only mild weight change (5'7 - 135-140lbs). Especially at night I am really hungry, and in the evening am very sleepy. Not sure how high I can go on my calories. Starch usually helps satiated me more, but I am not sure if it's just downregulating the metabolism.
Trying to change my mentality toward weight gain is hard also. Requires a lot of resilience, congratulations for hanging in there!

 

[ExCarniv]

I tend to agree with you. I just don't think eating enormous amounts of extra food is going to help someone lose weight. Has anyone used the weight maintenance calculators on the web? They go by your present height, weight and activity level. I've read on here that some say you need to eat 3,000 calories a day doing a more peaty way. And maybe it's 2,500 for woman. That's still too high for me. I certainly don't want to starve myself but to intentionally overeat doesn't seem right to me either.

Overeating while you're already satisfied is as bad as undereating while you're hungry. Doesn't make any sense.

No one,ever, got fat eating real foods.

Like Ido Portal says "When hungry, eat real foods" to this I add a simple rule, avoid Pufas and foods that your body doesn't agree and digest well.

 

[mbachiu]

More that I think about it, I really do think that nutrients in food- the nutrion of it, is wayyyy more important that amounts. I know when I focus on getting as many nutrients as I can, from what I am eating, I am definitely more satisfied and less hungry. Just by upping my milk intake- something I hardly ever drank, I feel more satisfied which is a surprise to me. Quality over quantity seems to be an important focus.

For that reason, even if it's not considered "peaty" I'm not giving up my green smoothies. I feel better when I regularly include them in my diet.

I think this all depends on where you sit with believing on whether or not we should be eating only 2000-2500 calories a day. I agree that we will be healthier the more nutritious the food we consume. But, when calories are what we need, such as those of us who are recovering from years & years of restriction, calories trump all. Again, that’s where my thinking is at & I think that can be very person-dependent.

 

[mbachiu]

Overeating while you're already satisfied is as bad as undereating while you're hungry. Doesn't make any sense.

No one,ever, got fat eating real foods.

Like Ido Portal says "When hungry, eat real foods" to this I add a simple rule, avoid Pufas and foods that your body doesn't agree and digest well.

Haha! I eat pretty much only ‘real’ foods & I have gotten quite chubby in the past few months, even bordering on fat. I have restricted my intake & overexercised pretty much my entire life, which has made me much more sensitive to gaining weight...

 

[ExCarniv]

Haha! I eat pretty much only ‘real’ foods & I have gotten quite chubby in the past few months, even bordering on fat. I have restricted my intake & overexercised pretty much my entire life, which has made me much more sensitive to gaining weight...

Depends of what you eat, but I wouldn't count white sugar and orange juice as real whole foods.

 

[Aaron]

More that I think about it, I really do think that nutrients in food- the nutrion of it, is wayyyy more important that amounts. I know when I focus on getting as many nutrients as I can, from what I am eating, I am definitely more satisfied and less hungry. Just by upping my milk intake- something I hardly ever drank, I feel more satisfied which is a surprise to me. Quality over quantity seems to be an important focus.

For that reason, even if it's not considered "peaty" I'm not giving up my green smoothies. I feel better when I regularly include them in my diet.

Same. Green smoothies/greens in general are a must for me. The only Peat-influenced changes I've made to them are more citrus, using Greek yogurt and never regular yogurt, leaving out any nuts/seeds and alternating between kale and spinach. I always included a raw carrot in them.

 

[ExCarniv]

The Last Canary: The Eat as Much as Possible Diet

@Cirion @Kelj

 

[Kelj]

If you read the Minnesota Starvation experiment, you will see that giving vitamins and minerals to the subjects without letting them refeed ad libitum, sometimes to 11,000 calories, did not help them recover health at all. Nutrients in the absence of enough calories, are of no benefit. You are still suppressing metabolism and cannibalizing tissue. Those who have been restricting calories must make up for the energy deficit they have created by eating more than people who have never restricted calories have to eat. Those who have never restricted do eat 2500 or above if they are women over 25. Or 3000 if they are women under 25. This is not guess work. That is how much they eat. It is the necessary amount of energy for a sedentary life. If you are not eating those amounts, you are restricting and suppressing your metabolism.

 

[Kelj]

Thanks, @ ExCarniv. I've read that article and thought it very astute. I especially like the part about girls eating cruciferous vegetables.

 

[Vinny]

The Last Canary: The Eat as Much as Possible Diet

@Cirion @Kelj

I,ve read it. It,s intersting, thanks.

 

[Cirion]

Yes, I was actually just discussing that article with someone over PM.

Here is another good one that I am not sure if Kelj has posted yet:

Gaining Weight Despite Calorie Restriction — The Eating Disorder Institute

Every fattist on the planet knows the first law of thermodynamics and they regularly throw it up assuming it debunks the assertion that weight gain could occur in the presence of calorie restriction. I have already addressed the incompleteness of using the first law without the second law when it comes to conservation of energy in the body

The body is an open system, not a closed system. The first and second laws of thermodynamics confirm that a calorie is not a calorie: meaning that metabolic pathways determine the rate at which energy moves from its usable to unusable state. These two laws do not confirm that the body cannot increase in mass in the absence of excess energy coming in from the outside world.

The fact that the body can increase in mass when ostensibly too little energy is being introduced into the body (through dieting) has to do with the balance between catabolism and metabolic suppression.

“Weight gain during the freshman year averaged 2.1 kg. None of the traditional self-report measures of restraint, disinhibition, or emotional eating were predictive of weight gain. However, both a history of weight loss dieting and weight suppression (discrepancy between highest weight ever and current weight) predicted greater weight gain, and these effects appeared to be largely independent of one another. Individuals who said they were currently dieting to lose weight gained twice as much (5.0 kg) as former dieters (2.5 kg) and three times as much as never dieters (1.6 kg).”

Using calorie deficits to lose weight is a trap. The more you do it, the less effective it is and the more harmful that it is. I've learned this, many here have learned this,. Eventually you reach a point where it actually makes you gain, not lose weight, and feel horrible to boot.

Before long, you find yourself spiraling down the rabbit hole of chronic calorie deprivation, because the second time it is less effective than the first, the third less than the second, eventually it becomes so ineffective that you then "never stop" the diet (except for the occasional binge) and are "always" in a deficit, and before long you may find yourself eating only 1500 calories a day and exercising 5-7 days a week to keep it up, until you finally break/burnout. If you continue the diet, you might find that even at 1500 calories you start gaining, and then "blame your bingeing" and "lack of control" for inability to lose weight (as do all the fattists around you, also blaming your lack of self control).

Of course if you are always in a deficit, the moment you introduce food it will make you fatter (at least at first, until your body trusts you again). That's to be expected. But then people will be quick to say "see, eating more makes you fat"... and my answer to that is Captain Picard's infamous FACEPALM

 

[milkboi]

The Last Canary: The Eat as Much as Possible Diet

@Cirion @Kelj

Great one

 

[sunraiser]

Echoing what some have already mentioned, it's important not to let these theories and views turn into neuroticism.

Just as one person might starve themselves to an arbitrary calorie target, another might get neurotic about hitting an arbitrary calorie intake for metabolic health.

I was the latter when I first discovered ideas on refeeding etc - it made me much sicker for a while, though it was greatly helpful in the very short term.

I think dysbiosis plays a role, but I also think the minnesota experiment calorie levels might have been different if they weren't just eating refined carbs in the refeed. What you eat feeds and adapts your microbiome, and I think it can definitely alter your appetite and food cravings.

 

[sunraiser]

Fat free mass increased or you got fatter?

I’ve stayed lean all my adult life, except during pregnancies, by watching nutrition and exercising. Everyone I know who is not fat also eats well and is active. All the fat people I know eat too much, or do weird binge/diet cycles, and/or have sedentary lifestyle. Maybe it’s genetics that make some people able to diet and exercise effectively, I dunno. Stephan Guyenet thinks it’s all about the brain, and has noted that SNPs that correlate with obesity are connected to genes that also regulate self-control, time preference, etc.

I don't like this view - it's a correlation and causation thing.

There seems to be a culture that both encourages self aggrandising at the same time as putting others down for their perceived actions. I have friends and family members that hold these same views - they've lived very comfortable lives and have never had to think for a second about their weight, diet, or metabolic health. They exercise for vanity or for fun and simply because they have the energy to do so.

There exist metabolic states and hormonal profiles that are different to anything you've ever experienced. Instead of thinking the worst of others, you'll be far closer to the mark in considering the fact those that are healthier and more energetic will naturally get more reward and positive feedback from exercise.

Obesity is also correlated with both time poverty and overall poverty - it's never a simple choice people are making. It's a sign of some kind of metabolic dysfunction combined with adverse life conditions.

 

[Vinny]

Yes, I was actually just discussing that article with someone over PM.

Here is another good one that I am not sure if Kelj has posted yet:

Gaining Weight Despite Calorie Restriction — The Eating Disorder Institute







Using calorie deficits to lose weight is a trap. The more you do it, the less effective it is and the more harmful that it is. I've learned this, many here have learned this,. Eventually you reach a point where it actually makes you gain, not lose weight, and feel horrible to boot.

Before long, you find yourself spiraling down the rabbit hole of chronic calorie deprivation, because the second time it is less effective than the first, the third less than the second, eventually it becomes so ineffective that you then "never stop" the diet (except for the occasional binge) and are "always" in a deficit, and before long you may find yourself eating only 1500 calories a day and exercising 5-7 days a week to keep it up, until you finally break/burnout. If you continue the diet, you might find that even at 1500 calories you start gaining, and then "blame your bingeing" and "lack of control" for inability to lose weight (as do all the fattists around you, also blaming your lack of self control).

Of course if you are always in a deficit, the moment you introduce food it will make you fatter (at least at first, until your body trusts you again). That's to be expected. But then people will be quick to say "see, eating more makes you fat"... and my answer to that is Captain Picard's infamous FACEPALM

Cirion,
I still struggle to understand, why the body gets weight (which is probably water, imho) after calorie restriction, followed by increased food intake? What,s the bodys benefit from it?

 

[milkboi]

I don't like this view - it's a correlation and causation thing.

There seems to be a culture that both encourages self aggrandising at the same time as putting others down for their perceived actions. I have friends and family members that hold these same views - they've lived very comfortable lives and have never had to think for a second about their weight, diet, or metabolic health. They exercise for vanity or for fun and simply because they have the energy to do so.

There exist metabolic states and hormonal profiles that are different to anything you've ever experienced. Instead of thinking the worst of others, you'll be far closer to the mark in considering the fact those that are healthier and more energetic will naturally get more reward and positive feedback from exercise.

Obesity is also correlated with both time poverty and overall poverty - it's never a simple choice people are making. It's a sign of some kind of metabolic dysfunction combined with adverse life conditions.

Word. YamnayaMommy seems to derive some kind of pleasure from bringing CICO up as the only true solution for health and then declaring the moral superiority of lean people in almost every post she made so far.

 

[mbachiu]

I don't like this view - it's a correlation and causation thing.

There seems to be a culture that both encourages self aggrandising at the same time as putting others down for their perceived actions. I have friends and family members that hold these same views - they've lived very comfortable lives and have never had to think for a second about their weight, diet, or metabolic health. They exercise for vanity or for fun and simply because they have the energy to do so.

There exist metabolic states and hormonal profiles that are different to anything you've ever experienced. Instead of thinking the worst of others, you'll be far closer to the mark in considering the fact those that are healthier and more energetic will naturally get more reward and positive feedback from exercise.

Obesity is also correlated with both time poverty and overall poverty - it's never a simple choice people are making. It's a sign of some kind of metabolic dysfunction combined with adverse life conditions.

This!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tristan Loscha]

i got fat on healthy food,meat,fruit,low pufa,just by decreasing energyexpenditure by reduction of sportvolume.
i advise against getting fat,but toe the line exactly where you would get fat.measure it out and toe it.
not being in a catabolic state is important,but excess fat is hormonally active,in a negative way.
also of note is that some members with unresoving issues have deficiencies in their micros,
they should supplement with all Hi-Dose ,piece by piece,under the assumption of resolving a deficiency with mystery-
symptoms.

 

[YamnayaMommy]

I don't like this view - it's a correlation and causation thing.

There seems to be a culture that both encourages self aggrandising at the same time as putting others down for their perceived actions. I have friends and family members that hold these same views - they've lived very comfortable lives and have never had to think for a second about their weight, diet, or metabolic health. They exercise for vanity or for fun and simply because they have the energy to do so.

There exist metabolic states and hormonal profiles that are different to anything you've ever experienced. Instead of thinking the worst of others, you'll be far closer to the mark in considering the fact those that are healthier and more energetic will naturally get more reward and positive feedback from exercise.

Obesity is also correlated with both time poverty and overall poverty - it's never a simple choice people are making. It's a sign of some kind of metabolic dysfunction combined with adverse life conditions.

I agree that people aren’t rational decision makers who have a whole lot of choice in their actions. I tend toward a soft genetic determinism and think that inherited personality attributes account for most behaviors, including sedentarism and overeating.

we live in a horrible food environment that makes it extraordinarily hard for all but the most self controlled and motivated people to stay lean and fit. Most people are not going to exercise and watch their nutrition and will therefore end up fat and sick.

fasting is great because it’s easy—much easier than tracking calories, nutrition, and macros—and thus offers the possibility of leanness to a greater number of people.