Why It Might Be Better To Temporarily Gain Weight After Diet Improvement

[Cirion]

Good luck, I was following your journey and you seemed into a rabbit hole, I hope this approach works and finally you find health and well-being.

Indeed. I found myself caught in many rabbit holes. Until I realized, getting enough calories is all that really matters ultimately. And I know that not subjectively, but for a fact, after looking at my data which supports this. Even so, I know no one would listen to someone who hasn't actually achieved his goals, thats why im staying quiet for now as to how this actually looks practically speaking and why it works (I have some insights that go a little deeper than what Kelj has posted, but all she has written is also correct).

And, before some who might know some of my past theories accuse me of being a flip flopper, that's only partially true. There is a current theory I've had since almost January of this year that I've held 100% steadfast to, even now. Now, the supporting theories to that main theory, yes, those have flip flopped, but even that, I'm finally settling/honing in on the answer at last w/ Kelj's help. (Thank you @Kelj for continuing to post even with all the opposition BTW and me pestering you with 100 of questions lol) I might not have arrived at this point without your help.

 

[Kelj]

Part VI Fat: No More Fear, No More Contempt — The Eating Disorder Institute

"Statistics from the Healthy Eating Index [Table 10, 1998] show that adults with a body mass index of 20 or less and those with a BMI greater than 30 have similar calorie intakes, as do the two categories between.

Men (ages 18-74) who eat 60% of the recommended daily calories: 3% are BMI 15-20, 36% are BMI 20-25, 43% are BMI 25-30 and 17% are over BMI 30.

Men (ages 18-74) who eat 120% of the recommended daily calories: 3% are BMI 15-20, 46% are BMI 20-25, 41% are BMI 25-30, and 10% are over BMI 30.

Take a close look at that for a moment.

17% of those eating only 60% of the recommended calorie intake are obese. Only 10% of those eating 120% of the recommended calorie intake are obese.

The correlation coefficient is r=0.02594 (p<0.38), and that means that body mass index is not linked to calorie intake.

The next time someone you know decides to comment on a large person needing to stop eating so much, let them know she’s more likely to be eating too little."

"Over the past 25-30 years the average weight of human beings in most countries around the world has increased. But the increase is not the same across all weight categories.

Importantly not all of us are getting fatter at the same rate.

“While there has been significant weight gain among the heaviest individuals the vast majority of people in the ‘overweight’ and ‘obese’ categories are now at weight levels that are only slightly higher than those they or their predecessors were maintaining a generation ago. In other words we are seeing subtle shifts, rather than an alarming epidemic. Biologist Jeffery Friedman offers this analogy: ‘Imagine that the average IQ was 100 and that five percent of the population had an IQ of 140 and were considered to be geniuses. Now let's say that education improves and the average IQ increases to 107 and 10% of the population has an IQ of >140. You could present the data in two ways. You could say that average IQ is up seven points or you could say that because of improved education the number of geniuses has doubled. The whole obesity debate is equivalent to drawing conclusions about national education programmes by saying that the number of geniuses has doubled.’” [P. Campos et al., 2005].
Campos and his colleagues point out that within a generation, there has been no change to weights for those at the low end of the weight spectrum, a very modest increase of 3-5 kg. (8-17 lbs) for the majority in the average range of weights, and a much larger increase for those already at the heaviest ranges. [ibid.]

There is sufficient evidence that what has been nicknamed the “thrifty gene” may be responsible for why just under 5% of the population is now significantly heavier than 25 years ago. Aboriginal communities, in particular those who traditionally lived with long periods of severe privation, starvation and environmental hardship, favored those who could maintain low metabolic rates and store any excess energy available, are particularly prone to obesity over BMI 40 (class 3 obesity as it is known) in environments where food in now plentiful."

 

[RWilly]

We'll see. I am actively doing the Billy Craig experiment on myself.

What's the Billy Craig experiment?

 

[Kelj]

The No Diet Diet - Eating Yourself Slim & Healthy

 

[YamnayaMommy]

lol people are living longer because of antibiotics and medicine and despite the fact that they overeat to the point that everyone is fat and sick

Better nutrition increased stature in the 20th century, but average height has peaked and is now declining, for Americans, probably because of changing demographics favoring genetically shorter populations (amerindians).

In the last 18 months, I have seen three men—fathers—die prematurely, in their 40s and 50s, who were morbidly obese, ate nonstop and did no exercise. Heart attack, diabetes/weird pulmonary infection, and pancreatic cancer (worst way to go).

Everyone I know who is overweight is miserable and addicted to food.

Fasting clean is one fairly simply way to avoid overeating. Fasting clean + good nutrition + strength training is a fairly simply way to look good naked.

 

[RWilly]

Fasting clean is one fairly simply way to avoid overeating. Fasting clean + good nutrition + strength training is a fairly simply way to look good naked.

I can say that I've done that, and my weight increased.

 

[YamnayaMommy]

I can say that I've done that, and my weight increased.

Fat free mass increased or you got fatter?

I’ve stayed lean all my adult life, except during pregnancies, by watching nutrition and exercising. Everyone I know who is not fat also eats well and is active. All the fat people I know eat too much, or do weird binge/diet cycles, and/or have sedentary lifestyle. Maybe it’s genetics that make some people able to diet and exercise effectively, I dunno. Stephan Guyenet thinks it’s all about the brain, and has noted that SNPs that correlate with obesity are connected to genes that also regulate self-control, time preference, etc.

 

[lampofred]

Fat free mass increased or you got fatter?

I’ve stayed lean all my adult life, except during pregnancies, by watching nutrition and exercising. Everyone I know who is not fat also eats well and is active. All the fat people I know eat too much, or do weird binge/diet cycles, and/or have sedentary lifestyle. Maybe it’s genetics that make some people able to diet and exercise effectively, I dunno. Stephan Guyenet thinks it’s all about the brain, and has noted that SNPs that correlate with obesity are connected to genes that also regulate self-control, time preference, etc.

I notice that the previous generation is far more metabolically healthy than the current one. Working out, caloric restriction, etc. worked fine for the people who are now in their late 30s and older, but today's 20 somethings were born highly toxic and malnutritioned, and fasting, working out, etc. is depleting already depleted bodies. I think unhealthy people in previous generations had too little self control, in current generations it's too much self control that is doing the damage by overriding bodily signals to slow down, rest, replenish, restore.

 

[RWilly]

Fat free mass increased or you got fatter?

I got fatter. And the weight came on quickly too. I used to eat low calorie... about 1200 calories a day, and I did that for years. Also went low carb and keto for a while. Used to work out a lot. Everything put on weight.

 

[YamnayaMommy]

I notice that the previous generation is far more metabolically healthy than the current one. Working out, caloric restriction, etc. worked fine for the people who are now in their late 30s and older, but today's 20 somethings were born highly toxic and malnutritioned, and fasting, working out, etc. is depleting already depleted bodies. I think unhealthy people in previous generations had too little self control, in current generations it's too much self control that is doing the damage by overriding bodily signals to slow down, rest, replenish, restore.

Is there any evidence that people born after 1990 eat less than those born before?

I wonder also how differences in knowledge of cooking and eating at home versus eating prepared food account for variation in health/fatness. I have always cooked for myself and my family, eating out maybe once a week. My mom was a stay at home mom who cooked at home. I think fewer young people are set up so they can cook for themselves. And many young women simply have no clue how to cook.

 

[gaze]

basically eat when your hungry and cook every meal yourself. trying to hit calorie amount is BS unless one has anorexia and has 0 hunger cues. eat whatever you want (as long as you make it yourself) and you can indulge in smoking and drinking. never go to sleep hungry. EVER. the people who live to 100 are eating fresh food, but every centenarian population eats differently, meaning that as long as the human body isn’t hungry or stressed, then your good. (doesn’t mean you can eat fast food, cause the amount of food junk will completely wreck your system over the long run). when you feel “unhealthy” instead of chugging milk or sugar, just rest, take a few days off, read a book, and eat what you feel like and you’ll feel better. there is no trick being played. it’s simply low stress (and that means avoiding the stress about having to eat a certain food cause you think you have to be healthy)

 

[Kelj]

Dear Doctor: Your patient has an eating disorder. — The Eating Disorder Institute

Here’s all the stuff they never told you about this patient:

Your patient will likely be average to well-above-average weight.

The well-above average weight patient doesn’t have a problem with binges and the worst thing you could do is tell them to lay off the donuts and get to gym. That’s because all eating disorders are about not eating enough to support energy needs. A binge happens because of unending attempts to return to under eating relative to energy needs. 1

Advising any patient to diet and exercise to ameliorate morbidity or mortality outcomes is not evidence-based medicine, 2 but to suggest these things to a patient with an eating disorder precipitates increased severity of the eating disorder. 3

The upshot is that you cannot identify the eating disorder on sight. Worse still, the complaint(s) for which they are coming to see you will not even hint at the underlying cause: a system-wide energy deficit from years of not meeting the body’s energy needs.

But beyond the SMR and a reduced life expectancy of around 12 years, the patient sitting across from you will likely be fully disabled and unable to work, thanks to the eating disorder, by their mid to late 40s. And prevalence? Somewhere between 14-33% of the population at large. 5, 6, 7

Know that average energy requirements for adult females and males are not 2000 and 2500 kcal/day respectively. Average intake for sedentary adult females is 2500 kcal/day and 3000 kcal/day for sedentary adult males. Between the ages of approximately 12-25 females require on average 3000 kcal/day and males 3500 kcal/day. Don’t hold back, and ask your patient to tell you what they eat on average each day and have in your mind a sense of what a 2500 or 3000 kcal/day meal plan would look like so you can compare and contrast. And don’t forget that net energy matters: if they are eating 3000 kcal/day but also work out an hour or two each day, then there will be a net energy deficit. 8

Be gentle with your patient if you have fallen victim to the cultural and unscientific norms of fattism and healthism.

 

[mbachiu]

Dear Doctor: Your patient has an eating disorder. — The Eating Disorder Institute

Here’s all the stuff they never told you about this patient:

Your patient will likely be average to well-above-average weight.

The well-above average weight patient doesn’t have a problem with binges and the worst thing you could do is tell them to lay off the donuts and get to gym. That’s because all eating disorders are about not eating enough to support energy needs. A binge happens because of unending attempts to return to under eating relative to energy needs. 1

Advising any patient to diet and exercise to ameliorate morbidity or mortality outcomes is not evidence-based medicine, 2 but to suggest these things to a patient with an eating disorder precipitates increased severity of the eating disorder. 3

The upshot is that you cannot identify the eating disorder on sight. Worse still, the complaint(s) for which they are coming to see you will not even hint at the underlying cause: a system-wide energy deficit from years of not meeting the body’s energy needs.

But beyond the SMR and a reduced life expectancy of around 12 years, the patient sitting across from you will likely be fully disabled and unable to work, thanks to the eating disorder, by their mid to late 40s. And prevalence? Somewhere between 14-33% of the population at large. 5, 6, 7

Know that average energy requirements for adult females and males are not 2000 and 2500 kcal/day respectively. Average intake for sedentary adult females is 2500 kcal/day and 3000 kcal/day for sedentary adult males. Between the ages of approximately 12-25 females require on average 3000 kcal/day and males 3500 kcal/day. Don’t hold back, and ask your patient to tell you what they eat on average each day and have in your mind a sense of what a 2500 or 3000 kcal/day meal plan would look like so you can compare and contrast. And don’t forget that net energy matters: if they are eating 3000 kcal/day but also work out an hour or two each day, then there will be a net energy deficit. 8

Be gentle with your patient if you have fallen victim to the cultural and unscientific norms of fattism and healthism.

I could not agree more with this, Kelj. I would not classify myself as having an eating disorder, but I was severely restricting how much I was eating for years, & counting down every single morsel of food I put into my mouth, down to the gram. I was also crossfitting & weightlifting too much. Last year, I started to have strange menstrual issues. Massive amounts of pain in my joints & in my back, migraine headaches (I’ve always had headaches, but never a migraine), & extremes hunger. If I had continued on the way I was going, by my mid-40s, I would’ve been bedridden.

 

[ExCarniv]

basically eat when your hungry and cook every meal yourself. trying to hit calorie amount is BS unless one has anorexia and has 0 hunger cues. eat whatever you want (as long as you make it yourself) and you can indulge in smoking and drinking. never go to sleep hungry. EVER. the people who live to 100 are eating fresh food, but every centenarian population eats differently, meaning that as long as the human body isn’t hungry or stressed, then your good. (doesn’t mean you can eat fast food, cause the amount of food junk will completely wreck your system over the long run). when you feel “unhealthy” instead of chugging milk or sugar, just rest, take a few days off, read a book, and eat what you feel like and you’ll feel better. there is no trick being played. it’s simply low stress (and that means avoiding the stress about having to eat a certain food cause you think you have to be healthy)

True and I think is almost impossible to gain fat eating whole nutrient dense foods that you tolerate and digest well while avoiding pufas (the main culprit of obesity imo, look paste generations without using PUFAs and most people were lean)

 

[ExCarniv]

In the last 18 months, I have seen three men—fathers—die prematurely, in their 40s and 50s, who were morbidly obese, ate nonstop and did no exercise. Heart attack, diabetes/weird pulmonary infection, and pancreatic cancer (worst way to go).

I saw my two uncles died from pancreatic cancer and heart disease, my father got colon cancer but glad he went thru and still alive.

All of them, ate lots of bread and deep fried foods on a daily basis, all were overweight.
I used to eat like that too, and was 40lbs overweight.

I put my dad on a low pufa and zero gluten diet and he lost 15lbs already without counting calories.

And think you overeat and gain fat when you eat the wrong foods, I believe is almost impossible to gain weight if you cook yourself and eat whole nutrient dense foods most of the time, while avoiding PUFAs and foods that you don't digest well.

 

[Andy316]

Im realizing now that high starch, high sugar and fructose are problem foods for my weight. But at the same time these are are the type of foods (Rice, Potatoes, concentrated fruit juice once in a while) which make me feel happy after eating and about life in general.

 

[CrystalClear]

Thanks for the OP Kelj. It sparked my interest with the mention of the Minnesota starvation experiment. I watched this video of a first hand account. He was only 23 at the time. He said he gained a lot weight after the experiment and it took 3 years to go back to his normal weight.

 

[Vinny]

Thanks for the OP Kelj. It sparked my interest with the mention of the Minnesota starvation experiment. I watched this video of a first hand account. He was only 23 at the time. He said he gained a lot weight after the experiment and it took 3 years to go back to his normal weight.

MINDBLOWING!

 

[Hildy]

Is this refeeding thing a joke? Aside from anorexics, virtually all adults and probably most children need to eat fewer calories. Americans eat like 300-600 calories more on average than they did 50 years ago. The relationship—probably causal—between increased calorie intake and increased BMI has been established in the medical literature for a long time.

Also, everyone here has probably experienced personally gaining fat when increasing calories as losing fat when decreasing calories. I have bounced back to my lean, pre-pregnancy size three times now through intermittent fasting. in the last pregnancy, I gained almost 70lbs through “refeeding” with calorie-dense foods all day long for 9 months. Lol.

I believe people are not intentionally lying when they claim they or someone they know is obese even though they eat 700 calories a day, but I assume they have massively underestimated their intake and/or overestimated their TDEE. studies have shown that this distortion is normal and skews a lot of diet research based on self reporting.

I tend to agree with you. I just don't think eating enormous amounts of extra food is going to help someone lose weight. Has anyone used the weight maintenance calculators on the web? They go by your present height, weight and activity level. I've read on here that some say you need to eat 3,000 calories a day doing a more peaty way. And maybe it's 2,500 for woman. That's still too high for me. I certainly don't want to starve myself but to intentionally overeat doesn't seem right to me either.

 

[Hildy]

More that I think about it, I really do think that nutrients in food- the nutrion of it, is wayyyy more important that amounts. I know when I focus on getting as many nutrients as I can, from what I am eating, I am definitely more satisfied and less hungry. Just by upping my milk intake- something I hardly ever drank, I feel more satisfied which is a surprise to me. Quality over quantity seems to be an important focus.

For that reason, even if it's not considered "peaty" I'm not giving up my green smoothies. I feel better when I regularly include them in my diet.