Why Is This Forum Still So Obsessed With Studies

[Texon]

Peatarians are obsessed with a few specific data points, at the expense of everything else. They mock mainstream science fo being reductionistic but they are actually even more reductionistic themselves. Everything seems to come down to how anything affects one or two different hormones in the body. Does something appear to be unhealthy? Yes, but according to a couple of studies it actually lowers stress hormones, so thefore it's actually a good thing. There are many studies and anecdotes about its negative effects, but it lowers cortisol so that means it's good. Oh and if it actually makes you more stressed it's because you're deficient in nutrient X, based on this study on mongolian rats in the 1940s.

@ecstatichamster @DaveFoster I'd rather have hundreds or even thousands of years of anecdotal experience than a bunch of studies any day. As Mark Twain famously said, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics."

 

[postman]

@ecstatichamster @DaveFoster I'd rather have hundreds or even thousands of years of anecdotal experience than a bunch of studies any day. As Mark Twain famously said, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics."

Mechanistic evidence is not the same as anecdotal experiences and anectdotal experiences are often refused here if they don't fit into the dogma. Take for example the vitamin A issue. A ***t ton of anecdotes but none of the "professional" peatarians, or Ray himself, have taken a serious look at why or how so many people are getting all these symptoms from vitamin A foods and vitamin A supplements.

 

[Cirion]

Mechanistic evidence is not the same as anecdotal experiences and anectdotal experiences are often refused here if they don't fit into the dogma. Take for example the vitamin A issue. A ***t ton of anecdotes but none of the "professional" peatarians, or Ray himself, have taken a serious look at why or how so many people are getting all these symptoms from vitamin A foods and vitamin A supplements.

My theory is its that most people here have at least some level of fatty liver. I have to be honest, I know I likely do, and that's likely why I can't tolerate more than 5000 IU or so (basically Ray's recommended limit for people with hypothyroid). I'm starting to play w/ increased caffeine doses, which is my next experiment, to try to fix my liver once and for all. Anyone who can tolerate 600-1000 mg a day of caffeine with no symptoms probably would have no issue with VA in most foods. Anyway, just a theory, at least. The liver is already burdened with all the other fun things in our diets like pesticides, heavy metals, PUFA's, and other stuff, not to mention its responsible for handling a lot of glycogen, so if it's already overloaded, it's easy to see how throwing alot of VA in the mix could be a problem also. I mean people like Haidut , Peat, and others who have taken the time to actually heal their livers, they can handle high VA foods like liver just fine, and I think that's why.

If you're truly cured of hypothyroid, you should be able to eat ANY food (at least within reason) without any sort of symptoms. Yes even processed junk foods. This is now my opinion. If you can't, then, well to quite some funny guy I listened to, "If you ain't growin'...... you're slowin'". I think some restriction, like low VA, absolutely can be necessary in the healing process though.

Zachs was one guy here found this out (posted on the alternate RP forum) that at first he couldn't really handle much foods, then eventually he could eat whatever he wanted and stay lean and metabolically healthy, but only after he truly healed himself. That's my goal. I really don't wanna be super duper ultra orthorexic the rest of my life if I can avoid it lol.

 

[professor_sue]

The discourse is: are scientific studies overvalued on this forum? Do personal experiences not get enough attention? Lets stick to addressing these concerns. Communication on this forum has been unproductive of late.

I agree. And the ad hominem attacks (specifically, on Danny Roddy) are not appropriate and, to me, show that the OP has nothing, or, at best, very little meaningful substance to offer. But ad hominem attacks are how arguments and communications unfold these days. It's disappointing and disturbing to me because it reflects a devolution of human cognitive capacity, or intellectual capabilities to engage in critical discourse.

 

[postman]

I agree. And the ad hominem attacks (specifically, on Danny Roddy) are not appropriate and, to me, show that the OP has nothing, or, at best, very little meaningful substance to offer. But ad hominem attacks are how arguments and communications unfold these days. It's disappointing and disturbing to me because it reflects a devolution of human cognitive capacity, or intellectual capabilities to engage in critical discourse.

Or maybe it just reflects great frustration, personal emotional frustration.

 

[Texon]

My theory is its that most people here have at least some level of fatty liver. I have to be honest, I know I likely do, and that's likely why I can't tolerate more than 5000 IU or so (basically Ray's recommended limit for people with hypothyroid). I'm starting to play w/ increased caffeine doses, which is my next experiment, to try to fix my liver once and for all. Anyone who can tolerate 600-1000 mg a day of caffeine with no symptoms probably would have no issue with VA in most foods. Anyway, just a theory, at least. The liver is already burdened with all the other fun things in our diets like pesticides, heavy metals, PUFA's, and other stuff, not to mention its responsible for handling a lot of glycogen, so if it's already overloaded, it's easy to see how throwing alot of VA in the mix could be a problem also. I mean people like Haidut , Peat, and others who have taken the time to actually heal their livers, they can handle high VA foods like liver just fine, and I think that's why.

@postman Interesting points @Cirion. It may go deeper still to the cyp450 enzymes, etc. For example, I know I have one of them that operates at only 5% efficiency. I think it deals with xenoestrogens IIRC. Nevertheless, I am lean and have no outward signs of estrogen dominance. I have never been able to tolerate more than 2 cups of coffee, and even that is pushing it. Seems kind of counterproductive to be stressing detox systems like that. Everything in moderation right? Also, I think the aging process tends to increase sensitivities overall just as a matter of course. However, I have seen something somewhere that Trimethylglycine is helpful to address fatty liver and toxins. If anyone has any ideas about how to enhance cyp450, I would love to hear it.

 

[Cirion]

@postman Interesting points @Cirion. It may go deeper still to the cyp450 enzymes, etc. For example, I know I have one of them that operates at only 5% efficiency. I think it deals with xenoestrogens IIRC. Nevertheless, I am lean and have no outward signs of estrogen dominance. I have never been able to tolerate more than 2 cups of coffee, and even that is pushing it. Seems kind of counterproductive to be stressing detox systems like that. Everything in moderation right? However, I have seen something somewhere that Trimethylglycine is helpful to address fatty liver and toxins. If anyone has any ideas about how to enhance cyp450, I would love to hear it.

the cyp450 enzyme describes the ability to process caffeine right? Yeah, I've been wondering it also. But I am pretty sure Haidut posted a study some time back that basically concluded that even so called "Slow caffeine metabolizers" got virtually all the same benefits from high caffeine dosages that the so called "fast caffeine metabolizers" did.

I know where you're coming from, and historically I've rarely tolerated more than a cup or two either, but this time I'm gonna make a concerted effort to SLOWLY build up the tolerance (In the past I tried to jump from like 2 cups to 10 a day, so of course that won't end well haha). But I'll say when I DID do that crazy experiment, in just 2-3 days of that dosage I shed 3-4 lb of water weight / bloat despite eating 4500-5000 calories a day. So my other motivation is to shed off excess weight, but without depriving myself of calories. I'm fat, and really eager to get rid of it, but I can't tolerate calorie deficits anymore, not like I could when I was younger. Calorie deficits put me in extreme stress response mode now.

I'll also add that it helps to delay caffeine intake until your second meal / around noon.

Cortisol is highest when you wake up. It's a bad idea to take caffeine on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. Caffeine on an empty stomach makes the cortisol effect very potent (think drinking alcohol on an empty stomach). So amplifying the cortisol effect, when your cortisol is already at the highest point in the day, well, that's a bad idea to say the least. Yet, most people in the West start their day with coffee. I tolerate it better when I save it for a few hrs after waking up and having fed myself. If you drink it first thing in the morning, you'll spike cortisol higher than the stratosphere, and set yourself up for a very rough crash soon after. This is likely why most people in the West crash and want a nap after lunch. It's not until they have lunch (Most people skip breakfast, or at least skimp out on it) that their stress hormones FINALLY shut down, after having been sky high the whole morning, so its no surprise they crash hardcore.

.... aaand then they go for more caffeine, which because they haven't fueled their body or managed cortisol well, just sets themselves up for another cortisol crash cycle.

Another note, even if you do have ample calories with your caffeine in the morning it will STILL cause a cortisol spike. It takes an hr or two to digest and use the energy from breakfast. Caffeine, on the other hand, is pretty much instant acting, and without the fuel to support it (It's still basically on an empty stomach, even with breakfast, as the food hasn't been partitioned yet) is a problem. And anecdotally, I find this to be true. I could never get morning coffee to work for me. So its best intaken between meals. But it's probably OK to take it with meals also, as long as we're talking at least meal #2+.

 

[Goobz]

The problem with any forum dedicated to the work of one particularly thinker, such as RP, is that people will have his pre formed ideas in mind, and then go looking for evidence to back it up. The studies posted will be cherry picked to prove his point.

Threads such as "Study shows X. X isn't Peaty. Can people help me work out why this study is wrong?" This is actually the opposite of a good scientific attitude, which works on the null hypothesis.

A good scientific approach also involves being happy to change your mind when the results demand it, not having broad pre formed ideas about which substances and hormones are "good" and which are "bad", and never changing them. I believe RP himself does change his mind, its his "followers" that get dogmatic, almost like with a religion.

If people get frustrated with the gap between the studies posted here and their results, its not the fault of "science" - its the opposite. They need a more scientific approach, one that is happy to change from being "Peaty" when the evidence demands it.

 

[Satellite]

enjoy getting jerked around and never getting anywhere

Enjoy staying sick and tired

Enjoy hunting for those one or two supplements or that one special diet you think will cure you

I really hope you enjoy it because by placing your hope in these you will be sick till the day you die.

I get it. I've been there. Not anymore.

Wait, are you taking a leak m8? What do you mean?

Supplements and diet work, the fitness industry proves that without studies.

New healing compounds such as Epitalon and Bpc 157 have been healing plenty people.

Chinese medicine has been using herbs etc. for centuries.

Maybe you mean the way studies are used in this forum?

Studies are snapshots of situations.

It’s just data.

The proper way is really to gather all the raw data and sort through it for patterns etc., not just find a study that supports your idea.

 

[LLight]

@postman Interesting points @Cirion. It may go deeper still to the cyp450 enzymes, etc. For example, I know I have one of them that operates at only 5% efficiency. I think it deals with xenoestrogens IIRC. Nevertheless, I am lean and have no outward signs of estrogen dominance. I have never been able to tolerate more than 2 cups of coffee, and even that is pushing it. Seems kind of counterproductive to be stressing detox systems like that. Everything in moderation right? Also, I think the aging process tends to increase sensitivities overall just as a matter of course. However, I have seen something somewhere that Trimethylglycine is helpful to address fatty liver and toxins. If anyone has any ideas about how to enhance cyp450, I would love to hear it.

Dehydration seems to increase cyp450:
Hypertonicity Regulation of Cytochrome P450 CYP3A | TSpace Repository
Discovery of osmosensitive transcriptional regulation of human cytochrome P450 3As by the tonicity-responsive enhancer binding protein (nuclear fac... - PubMed - NCBI

Don't know if it has a positive net effect.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

The studies that haidut posts (not only about nutrition) are best part of this forum.

This.

 

[DaveFoster]

@ecstatichamster @DaveFoster I'd rather have hundreds or even thousands of years of anecdotal experience than a bunch of studies any day. As Mark Twain famously said, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics."

With a large enough sample, given good methodology, you'd have a study, peer review be damned.