Why Is Phenibut So Amazing?

sprinter

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I have pretty bad anxiety and have been Peating for over 3 years. I've tried many Peat supplements. While DHEA and a few other things have worked ok, nothing compares to Phenibut for anxiety. Why is this? I wish I could take this stuff everyday, but it is addictive and I don't think it is Peat recommended.

Does anyone have any idea how you could mimic this stuff, while being Peaty? I mean really mimic it. Theanine, for example is sometimes recommended as a substitute, but it does absolutely nothing. Androsterone, although it is a GABA agonist, does not have a similar effect. Does anyone have personal experience with this or understand why Phenibut works so well?
 

TubZy

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Phenibut affects both GABA and dopamine, that is why at least in my experience. Hence why you feel energetic, euphoric but relaxed at the same time as compared to taking something like xanax which only affects GABA and not dopamine which makes the outcome makes you tired and sluggish
 
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sprinter

sprinter

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Do you know of Peat approved substances that will affect GABA & dopamine in the same way to the same degree then? I'd like to feel this way without Phenibut. I have no experience with Xanax or other benzos and would not consider taking them. Based on my research Phenibut is different and has many more pros without the cons of benzos.
 

RPDiciple

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niacinamide and taurine is suppose to effect it at least I think ? I know haidut has written somewhat about it
 

TubZy

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Yes, I would say the closest things would be high dose niacinimide, glycine (my personal favorite) and taurine.

In terms of herbs, you could try ashwaganda and bacopa.
 
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sprinter

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I take Niacinamide, Glycine, and Taurine regularly. I never felt anything close to Phenibut from these substances (or anything at all actually), but maybe I am not taking the correct dose for the effects I'm looking for. Could you recommend a dosing plan for these?
 

TubZy

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I take Niacinamide, Glycine, and Taurine regularly. I never felt anything close to Phenibut from these substances (or anything at all actually), but maybe I am not taking the correct dose for the effects I'm looking for. Could you recommend a dosing plan for these?

Honestly, if you are looking to identical effects of phenibut there is really nothing. Phenibut is pretty strong stuff and very easy get withdrawals from if not limited to once a week or so.

I take 3 grams of niacinimide a day along with 5 grams taurine and 5-10 grams of glycine.
 

Tarmander

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The best thing really to ask yourself is what kind of environment would produce effects like phenibut. Supplements and drugs can only fight so much against a stressful environment. Have you ever had a similar experience in life to phenibut, but without the phenibut? Being deeply in love? Enjoying your work? Anything like that?
 
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If it has the same effects, it has the same side effects...
 

Dopamine

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Phenibut works largely through being a calcium channel blocker which I believe is the main mechanism of its anti-excitation effects- not GABA so much. From what I understand endotoxin is a large cause of calcium influx into cells and excitation. Indeed phenibut has been shown in studies to protect against endotoxin and immunosuppression.

"Subsequent research has found that phenibut also binds to and potently blocks α2δ subunit-containing voltage-gated calcium channels (VGCCs), similarly to gabapentin andpregabalin.[9][10] Both enantiomers of phenibut show this action with similar efficacy.[9] Moreover, the R-enantiomer possesses five-fold greater affinity for this site relative to the GABAB receptor, while the S-enantiomer does not bind to the GABAB receptor at all.[9] As such, phenibut is likely to have much greater effect on α2δ subunit-containing VGCCs than on the GABAB receptor.[9] Notably, the antinociceptive effects of phenibut in rodents are mediated not by the GABAB receptor but by blockade of α2δ subunit-containing VGCCs."

[Immune-regulating effect of phenibut under lipopolysaccharide-induced immune stress conditions]. - PubMed - NCBI
"It is found that phenibut (under intraabdominal injection of 25 mg/kg within 5 days) removes the manifestations of hyperreactivity of the cellular link of immunity, and also restores the amount of phagocytic cells, which is evidence of the immunomodulating properties of the drug under conditions of hyperimmunization."

Comparative study of immunocorrective activity of phenibut and its organic salts in experimental immunodeficiency. - PubMed - NCBI
"Phenibut and its derivatives normalized cellular (index of delayed-type hypersensitivity reaction) and humoral (antierythrocyte antibody titer) immunity and the lymphoproliferative processes in immunocompetent organs of animals with cyclophosphamide-induced immunosuppression. This indicates pronounced immunocorrective effects of these substances."

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I think glycine has some similarities to phenibut and it also blocks endotoxic calcium influx and excitation in a dose dependent manner. Furthermore anything that lowers endotoxin and TNF will be of great value. For this I think avoiding carageenan and other foods that irritate the gut is most important. Also Rays carrot salad recipe is crucial- 1x per day at least but maybe more. Well cooked mushrooms are also beneficial for gut health.

Production of superoxide and TNF-alpha from alveolar macrophages is blunted by glycine. - PubMed - NCBI
The ability of glycine to prevent endotoxin [lipopolysaccharide (LPS)]-induced increases in [Ca(2+)](i) and subsequent production of superoxide and TNF-alpha in alveolar macrophages was examined. LPS caused a transient increase in intracellular calcium to nearly 200 nM, with EC(50) values slightly greater than 25 ng/ml. Glycine, in a dose-dependent manner, blunted the increase in [Ca(2+)](i), with an IC(50) less than 100 microM.

“TNF is produced by endotoxin, and estrogen increases the amount of endotoxin in the blood. Even without endotoxin, though, estrogen can stimulate the production of TNF. Lactic acid and unsaturated fats and hypoxia can stimulate increased formation of TNF. Estrogen increases production of nitric oxide systemically, and nitric oxide can stimulate TNF formation. How does TNF work, to produce tissue damage and wasting? It causes cells to take up too much calcium, which makes them hypermetabolic before it kills them. It increases formation of nitric oxide and carbon monoxide, blocking respiration. TNF can cause a 19.5 fold increased in the enzyme which produces carbon monoxide (Rizzardini, et al., 1993), which blocks respiration.” -Ray Peat

The varied antiinflammatory and protective effects of glycine can be thought of as an antiserotonin action. For example, serotonin increases the formation of TNF (tumor necrosis factor, also called cachectin), glycine inhibits it. In some situations, glycine is known to suppress the formation of serotonin. Antagonists of serotonin can potentiate glycine's effects (Chesnoy-Marchais, et al., 2000). People who ate traditional diets, besides getting a lower concentration of tryptophan, were getting a large amount of glycine in their gelatin-rich diet.
Gelatin, besides being a good source of glycine, also contains a large amount of proline, which has some antiexcitatory properties similar to glycine. -Ray Peat

I have experimented extensively with phenibut by the way. It's great for once in a while but not a long term solution.

So maybe try:

More carrot salad
More cooked mushrooms
More gelatin or glycine or gelatinous cuts of meat
More liver (fat soluble vitamins lower estrogen which lowers TNF)
 
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It's literally GABA with a phenyl group...
 

Dopamine

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Very intersting @Dopamine. I need to get some more glycine!
The first few times I took glycine it was very relaxing but the effect wore off fast, it didn't feel much like phenibut.

HOW DOES ESTROGEN ENHANCE ENDOTOXIN TOXICITY? LET ME COUNT THE WAYS
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/stor...vg&s=6dfa858ee497bebf0965532545118655a5ccf96d

Ya phenibut raises dopamine in a way glycine doesn't. Large doses of phenibut kind of feel like MDMA- really euphoric and even hypomanic. Not sustainable though as tolerance builds fast and you need more and more to chase that high. That's how people end up in dark places.
 

bawild

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Here's a list of supps I've tested for anxiety in various combinations; Minerals - Zn, Mg, Li, Aminos - theanine, taurine, glycine, gelatin Vitamins - Bs, K, D, E, A Neurosteroids - DHEA, progesterone, pregnenalone, androsterone, 11-keto DHT, TyroMix GABA/NDMA agents - tianeptine, phenibut (once per week or less), etifoxine, Metabolism boosters - Thiamine, Niacinamide, methylene blue, red light, aspirin.

The combination of tianeptine and androsterone/DHEA/pregnenalone works well at the moment. Tianeptine sulfate has activity at the mu and delta opioid receptors and has been shown by McEwen and others to reverse stress related neuro-atrophy in certain areas of the brain. The neurosteroids have shown a similar protective effect. My plan is to cycle 3 weeks on, 1 week off with this combination while I work on lifestyle elements in parallel (relationships, exercise, diet, sleep, meditation, etc).
 

Pointless

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Lowering cortisol helps a lot with anxiety. I would try Lapodin or cascara Sagrada if you don't do DMSO.
 

milk

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Well, I have taken xanax two times. Very effective for anxiety.

Lexapro as well, big Peat no-no but good for anxiety. Took it for a week.

It seems like the dirty drugs have a more "decisive" effect for anxiety, no?

I never tried Phenibut.


As for peaty supps that I have tried and have quite a strong, noticeable effect on anxiety and social performance (I mean, I do fine with taurine and gelatin but they're not powerful anxiety killers in my case at all... very soft effect in that regard):

Cynomel used to be pretty good for anxiety when I took it. I'm taking haidut's Tyronene now, which is pretty effective in that regard too but not quite as much, I think. Not a criticism of the product at all, I guess each T3 supp works a little differently. But anyway: anxious thoughts become very subdued, I feel more in control.

Tianeptine is great for social anxiety. I act more confidently, even too confidently, when I take it. It definitely gives me a boost in mood and energy, too. The energy boost is great for productivity.

Cyproheptadine makes me quite relaxed and outgoing when I take it.
 

TubZy

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The closest thing I get to it is 8 grams glycine plus a giant black cup of coffee.

Yeah I know phenibut is weird. It says it doesn't affect dopamine, but it's metabolite?

[Effect of phenibut on the content of monoamines, their metabolites, and neurotransmitter amino acids in rat brain structures]. - PubMed - NCBI

Effects of the nootropic drug phenibut, which is a structural analog of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), on the content of monoamines, their metabolites, and neurotransmitter amino acids in brain structures have been studied on Wistar rats. It is established that a single administration of phenibut in a dose of 25 mg/kg (i.p.) produces a statistically significant increase in the content of dopamine metabolite (3,4-dioxyphenylacetic acid) and the retarding amino acid taurine in striatum. At the same time, phenibut did not significantly influence the levels of GABA, serotonin, and dopamine in various brain structures and produce a moderate decrease in the level of norepinephrine in the hippocampus.
 
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sprinter

sprinter

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The combination of tianeptine and androsterone/DHEA/pregnenalone works well at the moment. Tianeptine sulfate has activity at the mu and delta opioid receptors and has been shown by McEwen and others to reverse stress related neuro-atrophy in certain areas of the brain. The neurosteroids have shown a similar protective effect. My plan is to cycle 3 weeks on, 1 week off with this combination while I work on lifestyle elements in parallel (relationships, exercise, diet, sleep, meditation, etc).

So you're doing 3 weeks on, one week off with the Tianeptine Sulfate? How much are you taking and what is your dosing schedule?
 

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