Why Is High Protein A Good Thing?

[tca300]

I'm not Oriental, but my brother's wife is, and I see her family frequently, including her 90+ year old grandparents who still eat basically the same diet they consumed before moving here. I also have access to plenty of studies showing the Japanese seem to age pretty well compared to many 1st world countries. I never said high protein can't be advantageous, and I myself eat meat, eggs, and dairy on a daily basis so I'm not espousing Veganism either, but the idea that a diet centered around vegetarian protein causes premature aging because a few individuals look "old" seems like faulty logic. In fact, I've seen people state Peat looks bad for his age, and I've questioned their opinion as well, because I think that's a really poor way to judge the merits of a diet. Unless you have a large group of people that have eaten a particular diet for their entire lives, appearances can be deceiving.


So because I disagreed with your opinion about vegetarians aging faster, you're telling me to get out?

No it's NOT my forum its a forum dedicated to the ideas of Ray Peat, and I posed what Ray Peat thinks of low protein diets. Your disagreeing with him. You can't accuse me of only using a few examples when you yourself do the same.

 

[Peater Piper]

I wasn't basing my opinion on my brother's in-laws, I'm basing it on the numerous Asian countries that have relatively low protein and animal product consumption yet continue to do well in terms of health. Besides that, I'm not claiming their diets are ideal (and I absolutely believe that some animal products in the diet are necessary for certain nutrients), just that using the appearance of a few Vegan gurus as a judgment of a diet is probably not a great tool for valuing their worth. As I said, Peat doesn't look great imo, but am I going to hold his genetic makeup and understanding of diet late in life against him because of that? He hasn't been "Peating" since he was in the womb, and most people have changed their diets many times throughout life. Plus the quality of a person's appearance is open to interpretation. Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread any further, so I'll bow out.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

...Since we want less serotonin in us? Does not make sense but I hope one of you can clear it up. Thanks / love.

There is always some amount of serotonin but Peat’s view is that you need enough protein and enough quality protein mainly to help the liver function at it's best and do the jobs of producing and converting enough thyroid hormone and detoxing and inactivating estrogen. He said that potato protein is an even higher quality than egg yolk protein so that's why I eat potatoes as my main protein source and I think that would explain why people like the Okinawans who ate mostly sweet potatoes lived long as well as these folks: Yuzurihara Japan's longevity tied to potatoes/root plants

From tca300:

"Me: "I'm going to be moving to an area that doesn't have any good animal proteins, do you think replacing animal protein with potatoes would work because of their keto acid content? Thank you very much!"

Ray: "Yes, people in New Guinea who eat nothing but potatoes for 51 weeks of the year (and pork the other week) have been studied and found to be healthy with no signs of protein deficiency."

Papua New Guinea - Sweet Potato Diet

But as with many things, protein hasn’t been studied enough:

“The amino acids in proteins have been defined as “essential” on the basis of their contribution to growth, ignoring their role in producing long life, good brain development, and good health. The amino acid and protein requirements during aging have hardly been studied, except in rats, whose short life-span makes such studies fairly easy. The few studies that have been done indicate that the requirements for tryptophan and cysteine become very low in adulthood.” - RP

More “hardly studied” quotes below.

Some tryptophan is converted into niacin and some into serotonin. Peat also mentioned that serotonin is released into the bloodstream from the intestine by anything that rubs against, or scratches and pulls the inner lining of the tubes. And he’s also mentioned how low thyroid slows down the whole digestive system. So optimally you want to have everything optimized. When it comes to Peat and protein, it’s really an amino acid issue as it relates to liver function. See my post here where I asked him about a Peat-inspired vegan with blood labs for liver function:

Peat's Surprising Response To My Email. A "Ray Peat Vegan" Is Possible.

As you can see, his answer was "Yes, I think those goods can provide enough protein in a good balance of amino acids."

I did not include beans in that RP vegan scenario but I did include potato and mushroom both of which he has mentioned as good proteins. Peat has talked about the low quality protein content of beans. He just doesn’t see a need for beans when you can use other foods. But I think it’s important to look at Peat’s view on mushrooms. Peat used to think that mushrooms were toxic but recently came out with a whole newsletter praising them, which shows his willingness to change his mind when he comes across convincing evidence. Peat said in a recent Roddy interview that he changed his mind on mushrooms because the guy he was reading in the 70’s didn’t mention that the toxins were destroyed by heat, at 50:18 Talking with Ray Peat [Generative Energy #19]'

Something so simple changed his view.

Just found this Peat quote by HDD:

"The cooked greens, if you eat it by the cups and the quarts, it’s an adequate source of protein. But if you aren’t eating it as your main food for protein, then a 1/2 cup to a cup a day will provide your vitamin K, and a generous amount of magnesium and calcium. Those are the nutrients that quickly cook out of it into the broth. And so, if you drink only the water that you cooked a cup or so of leaves in, then you get a little supplement of magnesium and calcium."

Boiling Kale

Other “hardly” quotes:

"Nutrition is one of the most important sciences, and should certainly be as prestigious and well financed as astrophysics and nuclear physics, but while people say “it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure that out,” no one says “it doesn’t take a nutritionist to understand that.” Partly, that’s because medicine treated scientific nutrition as an illegitimate step-child, and refused throughout the 20th century to recognize that it is a central part of scientific health care." - RP

“Nutritional research has hardly begun to investigate the optimal ratios of minerals, fats, amino acids, and other things in foods, and how they interact with the natural toxicants, anti-nutrients, and hormone disrupters in many organisms used for food.” - RP

“For fifty years, the mass media have been making the public think about the fats in their diet, filling the culture with clichés about bad saturated animal fats that raise cholesterol, or lately the trans-fats in margarine, and images of arteries clogged by bad fats. The public instruction about the fats we should eat resembles the owner's manual for a car, that tells you what kind of motor oil and fuel and coolant to use; they are telling us that they know how our body works, and that they know what it needs. But now, even after the human genome has supposedly been partly "decoded," the biological functions of the fats have hardly begun to be investigated.” - RP

So it’s important to keep an open mind but do what you feel is best for you and know that "knowledge is tentative."

Beans aren't fat free at all, most are higher in PUFA than fruits and lowfat dairy. Beans have a protein bioavailability so low you should take whatever amount of protein they have for a given amount and cut it in half, that would give you a much more accurate number of what you are actually getting from them. They also have a garbage calcium to phosphorus ratio, difficult to digest, wreck your thyroid, and are very high in iron and potential allergens and antinutrients. If you want to get enough quality protein to sustain lean body mass, and most importantly fuel your liver with the proteins it needs your inevitability going to consume animal protein. People who eat mostly pants and get most of their protein from plants age rapidly. McDougall, klaper, etc.. They look like they are at least a decade older than they truly are, especially when you compare them to people like kummerow, my grandparents and great grandparents, Ray, etc. Just my opinion, I was high calorie vegan getting my protein from beans, lentals, rice, potatoes, wheat etc.. For over a year, it messed me up so bad, it dropped my temperature down to the 95's and I tried to kill myself. Ray has saved my life and my health, I will never eat a bean, lental, or a "high protein plant food " or even any starch ever again. Sorry for the rant. That's just my experience and my opinion, it doesn't mean anything.

These photos of Peat were taken on October 8th, 2014, just 4 days before his 78th birthday:

PTA: Production Blog

I think he looks great for 78. But more importantly, his cognitive function is amazing, as heard in interviews. Peat turns 80 this October. I think all of the this person/that person looks good/old gets silly after a while. T Colin Campbell and Caldwell Esselstyn are bean/plant eaters and they are both 82 years old. Alan Goldhamer is almost 60 and looks 20 years younger for a bean eater. It all varies.

But whenever I see people criticizing the "plant" eaters who are all healthy, I always want to say let me see you make it to 70, or even 60, cancer free, and hypertension, Rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes, and heart disease free. And medication free.

“A few years ago, most of the nutritional problems that I saw were caused by physicians, by refined convenience foods, and by poverty. Recently, most of the problems seem to be caused by badly designed vegetarian diets, or by acceptance of the idea that 40 grams of protein per day is sufficient. The liver and other organs deteriorate rapidly on low-protein diets. Observe the faces of the wheat-grass promoters, the millet-eaters, and the ‘anti-mucus’ dieters, and other low-protein people. Do they look old for their age?”

Conversely, see here for Peat saying the same thing about meat based diets: Ray Peat on the stress of ketogenic diets

 

[tca300]

Ahhhhh.. I was wondering when you were going to show up @Westside PUFAs

My argument is Ray has stated high protein diets are best for health. Why do you say high protein low carb diets are bad for estrogen???? Did I once ever say sugar is bad??? Or am I stating the importance of protein, simply because Ray has repeatedly talked about the importance of it. I have NEVER EVER said to cut carbs... EVER. I garentee I eat more carbs than both of you. If you asked Ray if the diet YOU promote is in his opinion optimal he would say NO. Because he doesn't eat starch, and eats relatively high protein. Just because people can be healthy on a particular diet doesn't mean it's optimal. I don't want to argue with you guys at all. I might be the only person on the entire forum who actually sticks to what Ray recommends optimally, milk, fruit, shellfish, liver, coconut etc... For a long time with zero cheat, or splurge days. I have to respond with my cell phone so this is getting annoying and difficult to say what I want to. When I state the opinion of a man whose this forum is dedicated to and get attacked, its time for me to go, so I'm done posting on this forum. None of my quotes are "hardly" quotes OR taken out of context like most of yours typically are.. You made no argument against anything I said. You changed gears and quoted things like macronutrient ratio garbage that has nothing to do with what were talking about. Good job!! Also im not going to continue a conversation with someone who accuses me of photoshopping an email exchange with peat, simply because YOU dont want to believe he would say that. You guys win!!! Yay!!! Eat loads of starch, and cut your protein back!!

 

[Jayfish]

Well, not milk, it's quite high in tryptophan. But he seems to like milk due to its high calcium, which he says, will take care of the tryptophan. But then why drink it in the first place if its AAs cancel each other out.

And I do want to see the whole picture, that's why I made this thread Can't help but see a good side to a low-protein diet THUS far, though!

How is milk high in tryptophan? Per half gallon is has less than 1 gram. I believe all the other pro metabolic qualities of milk will cancel out the small amounts of tryptophan.

 

[Peater Piper]

When I state the opinion of a man whose this forum is dedicated to and get attacked, its time for me to go, so I'm done posting on this forum.

I'm sorry that what I posted to you came off as an attack, because it wasn't intended to be. I was giving my opinion, as you were yours (and Peat's), and was caught off guard by you basically saying that I shouldn't be posting on here because I may diverge from Peat's opinion in one area despite agreeing with him on the majority of topics. We're all individuals with our own ideas and own health issues, and some of us are unable to follow the optimal Peat diet (I can't do excessive dairy, cooked fruit treats me better than juice, and coconut oil causes bloating), so we have to make the best of the situation.

 

[tara]

He keeps pointing to a lack of tryptophan (which I'm told is in almost all protein) as a GOOD thing.

He suggests eating gelatine/connective tissue as part of our protein because it has little or no tryptophan (unlike muscle meats., which have lots).

 

[Peatish Ninja]

There is always some amount of serotonin but Peat’s view is that you need enough protein and enough quality protein mainly to help the liver function at it's best and do the jobs of producing and converting enough thyroid hormone and detoxing and inactivating estrogen. He said that potato protein is an even higher quality than egg yolk protein so that's why I eat potatoes as my main protein source and I think that would explain why people like the Okinawans who ate mostly sweet potatoes lived long as well as these folks: Yuzurihara Japan's longevity tied to potatoes/root plants

Hate to break it to ya, but the Okinawans lived longer before World War II. This is because collagen (pork) was a big part of their diet.

 

[lexis]

Low protein can elevate adrenaline and this may be a cause of water retention

 

[Luann]

Even though this thread got de-railed in the later posts, looking back I'd like to thank the people who helped me understand the importance of a high protein diet. I was pretty stubborn about not wanting to eat protein! Thank you all for being patient with the younger me. Hope that everyone is still discovering and progressing today.

 

[dbh25]

What % calories is considered high protein?

 

[marcar72]

What % calories is considered high protein?

25% Would be adequate protein from a Peat perspective.

Protein - Why It Is So Important

Below is a paragraph from Dr. Ray Peat, private consultation:
Four ounces of meat contains about 25 grams of protein, so having that three times a day would meet the basic (low) requirement. A quart of milk contains 33 grams of protein, so 3 quarts a day would be close to the optimal amount of protein. A dozen eggs per day would do it, but this would provide too much PUFA (omega-3 and -6 fats).
For the average slightly hypothyroid person, I've seen very sick people suddenly get well when they increased their protein to 70 grams, but it isn't the amount I recommend for good sustained health.

Muscle meats and liver contain too much tryptophan for an adult if those are the main protein source, and will contribute to hypothyroidism, etc., but when the metabolic rate is optimal, most adults who aren't completely sedentary probably should have around 130 to 150 grams. If their calorie consumption is around 3000 kcal per day, that's about 25% of the calories as protein. Great Lakes Gelatin (cooked collagen), a prothyroid protein is recommended to balance the anti-thyroid amino acids in muscle meats.

 

[dbh25]

25% Would be adequate protein from a Peat perspective.

Protein - Why It Is So Important

Below is a paragraph from Dr. Ray Peat, private consultation:
Four ounces of meat contains about 25 grams of protein, so having that three times a day would meet the basic (low) requirement. A quart of milk contains 33 grams of protein, so 3 quarts a day would be close to the optimal amount of protein. A dozen eggs per day would do it, but this would provide too much PUFA (omega-3 and -6 fats).
For the average slightly hypothyroid person, I've seen very sick people suddenly get well when they increased their protein to 70 grams, but it isn't the amount I recommend for good sustained health.

Muscle meats and liver contain too much tryptophan for an adult if those are the main protein source, and will contribute to hypothyroidism, etc., but when the metabolic rate is optimal, most adults who aren't completely sedentary probably should have around 130 to 150 grams. If their calorie consumption is around 3000 kcal per day, that's about 25% of the calories as protein. Great Lakes Gelatin (cooked collagen), a prothyroid protein is recommended to balance the anti-thyroid amino acids in muscle meats.

Thanks, when I hear high carb, high fat, high protein, I always want to know the %

 

[Amazoniac]

Error encountered - PubMed - NCBI
@Amazoniac

 

[LegendeLic]

great vid! eye opener for sure!

 

[Elephanto]

I have yet to see any health benefit from increasing protein intake that isn't entirely due to increasing sulfur intake (for which protein is one of the main sources in average diets). As a general detoxifier, organ protector and potent antiseptic, it would easily explain what some like Peat have called "serotonin" or "estrogen" issues from low protein intake. By combining a frequent source of sulfur (either pure, from Taurine, MSM, onions or broccoli for instance) and a relatively low protein intake (getting the incredibly wide range of benefits from the restriction of several Amino Acids and of phosphate), I have achieved my best looks and mental state yet. In more alternative views, sulfur is considered both purifying and of the essence of masculinity, and I find the latter verifiably true. I would add the nuance that correcting an actual protein deficiency would indeed bring some benefits independently of sulfur intake (for instance Histidine playing a role in gastric acid secretion, or maintaining a sufficient muscle mass) but in my experience and according to my size, it requires very little protein to achieve this.

Anyway that seems like a best of both worlds type of solution, since the usual 100g+ daily recommendation is incompatible with AA restriction. Even gelatin isn't a real solution to this since it is also one (or the?) highest sources of Arginine per g of any protein sources. I remember haidut mentioning that historically people developed sickness from eating a lot of gelatin as a staple, and I think it could mainly be from the Arginine fraction (although Glycine having an MTOR-promoting effect should be investigated).

 

[Wagner83]

I have yet to see any health benefit from increasing protein intake that isn't entirely due to increasing sulfur intake (for which protein is one of the main sources in average diets). As a general detoxifier, organ protector and potent antiseptic, it would easily explain what some like Peat have called "serotonin" or "estrogen" issues from low protein intake. By combining a frequent source of sulfur (either pure, from Taurine, MSM, onions or broccoli for instance) and a relatively low protein intake (getting the incredibly wide range of benefits from the restriction of several Amino Acids and of phosphate), I have achieved my best looks and mental state yet. In more alternative views, sulfur is considered both purifying and of the essence of masculinity, and I find the latter verifiably true. I would add the nuance that correcting an actual protein deficiency would indeed bring some benefits independently of sulfur intake (for instance Histidine playing a role in gastric acid secretion, or maintaining a sufficient muscle mass) but in my experience and according to my size, it requires very little protein to achieve this.

Anyway that seems like a best of both worlds type of solution, since the usual 100g+ daily recommendation is incompatible with AA restriction. Even gelatin isn't a real solution to this since it is also one (or the?) highest sources of Arginine per g of any protein sources. I remember haidut mentioning that historically people developed sickness from eating a lot of gelatin as a staple, and I think it could mainly be from the Arginine fraction (although Glycine having an MTOR-promoting effect should be investigated).

Do you work out and if so, are you able to increase your strength? I guess the IF could be helping regarding growth hormones.

Gelatin Can Exarcerbate A Protein Insufficiency

 

[Elephanto]

Do you work out and if so, are you able to increase your strength? I guess the IF could be helping regarding growth hormones.

Gelatin Can Exarcerbate A Protein Insufficiency

Yes and yes. I'm not in an "ambitious" period for muscle growth but I remember achieving impressively fast results with about 50-60g (and most from vegetal protein) this past summer. IF would also help with endotoxins reduction, which has a major impact on testosterone and the hormonal profile in general. Otherwise I keep an overall muscular (although not much size) and very lean body at about 30g on average. And I don't think I've been working out consistently enough to even see the limitations that 30g puts. I'm more interested in achieving a masculine look rather than increasing mass, and I think if one has the latter as a main goal there is definitely some compromises that have to be made with lifespan, metabolic/thyroid and mental benefits. Would probably add a bit of BCAA, Phenylalanine, Glycine, Lysine and Calcium to every protein meals to lessen such compromises.

Good reminder about gelatin exarcebating insufficiency. On the other hand, low-dose Taurine significantly improves protein utilization. BCAA tends to promote muscle synthesis, and according to its effect on MTOR and DHT, Glycine would also do this. Taking care of all the other factors (avoidance of anti-androgenic substances, minerals, vitamins, stress, serotonin, endotoxins, androgenic habits and supps, carbs intake and glycemic response etc) has a major impact on strength, muscle size and masculine looks in my experience; so if you assume you're not getting enough protein for decent muscle synthesis it might not be the case. I've achieved significantly better results wether at 30 or 50-60g than a few years ago when I used to eat 100g of protein daily (a decent chunk from lean chicken and dairy) but didn't address all the other factors.

Taurine Dramatically Improves Protein Utilization From Food

 

[Blossom]

Thank you @Amazoniac for posting that informative video. It explained for me why I felt like I had acid running through my veins when eating very low carb.

 

[Wagner83]

Yes and yes. I'm not in an "ambitious" period for muscle growth but I remember achieving impressively fast results with about 50-60g (and most from vegetal protein) this past summer. IF would also help with endotoxins reduction, which has a major impact on testosterone and the hormonal profile in general. Otherwise I keep an overall muscular (although not much size) and very lean body at about 30g on average. And I don't think I've been working out consistently enough to even see the limitations that 30g puts. I'm more interested in achieving a masculine look rather than increasing mass, and I think if one has the latter as a main goal there is definitely some compromises that have to be made with lifespan, metabolic/thyroid and mental benefits. Would probably add a bit of BCAA, Phenylalanine, Glycine, Lysine and Calcium to every protein meals to lessen such compromises.

Good reminder about gelatin exarcebating insufficiency. On the other hand, low-dose Taurine significantly improves protein utilization. BCAA tends to promote muscle synthesis, and according to its effect on MTOR and DHT, Glycine would also do this. Taking care of all the other factors (avoidance of anti-androgenic substances, minerals, vitamins, stress, serotonin, endotoxins, androgenic habits and supps, carbs intake and glycemic response etc) has a major impact on strength, muscle size and masculine looks in my experience; so if you assume you're not getting enough protein for decent muscle synthesis it might not be the case. I've achieved significantly better results wether at 30 or 50-60g than a few years ago when I used to eat 100g of protein daily (a decent chunk from lean chicken and dairy) but didn't address all the other factors.

Taurine Dramatically Improves Protein Utilization From Food

The problem I see with IF is the same as ketogenic diets, some people here felt great at first and then completely crashed.

What do you mean by glycemic response? That a high carb/ high glucose meal temporarily lowers T? I remember there was a study on this but it used pure glucose on its own. I don't know yet if there's anything inherently wrong with eating three high-carbs / high starch meals a day and the subsequent release of insulin three times a day. For some reason tyw avoided this and was convinced by it. Proteins (dairy..) also stimulate insulin release quite a bit. Potassium and fibers should help, but fibers can be problematic.