Why I Regret Giving Hair Loss Advice And A Major Breakthrough

[johnwester130]

This does not seem to me to be an adequate explanation,

" First, Polysorbate, a known cleanser, emulsifier, and surfactant, helps rid the hair follices of the hormone, dihydrotestosterone or DHT. DHT is the testosterone fraction that is believed to trigger male pattern baldness in men."

• This belief that DHT causes hair loss in men is highly questionable. If it were true all old men would have full heads of hair and young men would be bald as they have the highest level of DHT.
• There might be an argument to say that removing localised DHT in the scalp would help for hair loss but that argument is weak and with little evidence IMO. Also if it were the case that its properties as an emulsifier and surfactant are what help remove the DHT and prevent hair loss, than why wouldn't regular shampoo ingredients such as Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (SLS) do the same thing?

"Second, Polysorbate is known to trigger histamine release, which increases blood flow and nutrition to the hair follicles."

• There is evidence to suggest that excess histamine release is the LAST thing you want if you have a balding scalp. There are studies showing that histamine is elevated in scalps of balding men. Danny Roddy has a very well researched article on this, "Anti-Histamines for Pattern Hair Loss".
• Not saying you want zero histamine as it is part of the hair growth cycle however I think there is more evidence that those with balding scalps have too much histamine rather than not enough.

.

I agree.

The real explanation is that it removes sebum which clogs hair follicles on the microscopic level.

 

[Sheik]

If it were true all old men would have full heads of hair and young men would be bald as they have the highest level of DHT.

Miniaturization happens over time, it doesn't happen instantly. The high DHT could be affecting young men's hair. Many (most?) men have visible loss by their mid 20's.

That, and hair doesn't simply grow back if DHT is reduced. Certainly not for old men.

Hair does stop falling out if a man is castrated or given a 5ar inhibitor.

 

[Soren]

I agree.

The real explanation is that it removes sebum which clogs hair follicles on the microscopic level.

I definitely think that excess sebum is a problem but simply removing it does not get rid of the underlying cause of what is creating excess sebum and completely depriving the scalp of it constantly may cause the scalp to overproduce sebum to counter the fact that it has been completely removed.

Sebum does serve a purpose on the scalp so completely removing it might work to help remove the excess that exists but long term it is probably not healthy for the scalp or the hair follicle.

 

[sladerunner69]

polysorbate 80 is highly allergenic and impinges digestion when included as a stabilizer in foods...

 

[Soren]

Miniaturization happens over time, it doesn't happen instantly. The high DHT could be affecting young men's hair. Many (most?) men have visible loss by their mid 20's.

That, and hair doesn't simply grow back if DHT is reduced. Certainly not for old men.

Hair does stop falling out if a man is castrated or given a 5ar inhibitor.

If the high DHT is affecting young men's hair then why are there young men with high DHT and no hair loss and men with low DHT and hair loss. What accounts for this variance?

Apologies I'm somewhat confused by your point here. You said that hair does not grow back if DHT is reduced so you seem to be implying that DHT is not the cause of hair loss yet then you say that when men who are given a 5ar inhibitor which reduces DHT their hair stops falling out.

As for castrates there are some interesting ideas as to why they do not lose their hair and it is not necessarily because of the reduced circulating DHT. They also produce very low levels of estrogen and prolactin, two hormones which have been closely linked to baldness. They also produce a greater amount of progesterone then non-castrates which is known to be hair protective.

 

[tfcjesse]

Seems like the OP has proven his thread title's point?

Major breakthrough has been countered as something that likely causes hair loss..

 

[AretnaP]

Miniaturization happens over time, it doesn't happen instantly. The high DHT could be affecting young men's hair. Many (most?) men have visible loss by their mid 20's.

Most modern american white men, maybe.
Many asian and black men keep their hair pretty well, and many mexican/hispanic/native american men have excellent hairlines forever.

 

[Sheik]

If the high DHT is affecting young men's hair then why are there young men with high DHT and no hair loss and men with low DHT and hair loss. What accounts for this variance?

Apologies I'm somewhat confused by your point here. You said that hair does not grow back if DHT is reduced so you seem to be implying that DHT is not the cause of hair loss yet then you say that when men who are given a 5ar inhibitor which reduces DHT their hair stops falling out.

As for castrates there are some interesting ideas as to why they do not lose their hair and it is not necessarily because of the reduced circulating DHT. They also produce very low levels of estrogen and prolactin, two hormones which have been closely linked to baldness. They also produce a greater amount of progesterone then non-castrates which is known to be hair protective.

I'm not implying anything, except that your theory doesn't make sense.

It's best to let go of ego investment in one theory or another.

 

[BrianF]

no, because you have to remove the build up of dead skin and oil.

This is the only way I have found to do it.

Even clays cannot remove sebum from under the follicle

What I like about it is it gives you an instant effect , you will literally see sebum pour out your scalp within 30 seconds.

I agree that fundamentally changes need to take place to fix the undelying issues regards sebum production but i suspect you are completely right that unless dead skin is shed and sebum removed from deep within the follicle that any treatments will have a limited, if any effect.
I would like to use it for a limited time to remove sebum buildup but for as short a time as possible.

How long would i need to use it to get a tborough and beneficial effect from it?

 

[Travis]

This belief that DHT causes hair loss in men is highly questionable. If it were true all old men would have full heads of hair and young men would be bald as they have the highest level of DHT.

Teenagers would be the baldest.

My main problem with the DHT theory is that the hair on the crown of the head receives the least amount of blood. It should therefore receive the least amount of DHT.

And androgens actually stimulate hair growth; during male development and in females who have elevated androgens.

I think it could be an irrationality which ultimately stems from the overly simplistic, knee-jerk desire to explain all biological sex differences based on sex hormones. Males are different in other ways: they have higher stress hormones and wear hats more often. Calcitriol has been shown to promote hair growth, and mice born without the vitamin D receptor are usually bald (but it depends on where the mutation is in the gene.)

Even humans born without vitamin D receptors (VDRR) often have complete alopecia.

 

[johnwester130]

Teenagers would be the baldest.

My main problem with the DHT theory is that the hair on the crown of the head receives the least amount of blood. It should therefore receive the least amount of DHT.

And androgens actually stimulate hair growth; during male development and in females who have elevated androgens.

I think it could be an irrationality which ultimately stems from the overly simplistic, knee-jerk desire to explain all biological sex differences based on sex hormones. Males are different in other ways: they have higher stress hormones and wear hats more often. Calcitriol has been shown to promote hair growth, and mice born without the vitamin D receptor are usually bald (but it depends on where the mutation is in the gene.)

Even humans born without vitamin D receptors (VDRR) often have complete alopecia.

Yet dutasteride and propecia do work for hair loss , even though they are dangerous

 

[Soren]

I'm not implying anything, except that your theory doesn't make sense.

It's best to let go of ego investment in one theory or another.

Have zero ego investment in one theory over the other, i'm an empiricist in these regards. Also it is not my theory, many have cast aspersions on DHT being the cause of MPB and have made the same point I did that if DHT were the cause of MPB we would see more bald people with high levels of DHT. It is not a theory it as an observation that as to my current knowledge has not been accounted for.

If you have evidence you can point me to that shows that DHT exerts its damage on the hair follicle over time please let me know and I'll be glad to read it.

I think one of the biggest reasons that the medical industry hasn't made any progress in hair loss (along with many other diseases) is being a slave to genetic dogma. The idea that all diseases are caused by genetics and there is nothing anyone can do to change that. The DHT theory of hair loss follows a similar path in that there is a closed minded dogmatic approach that the beginning and end of every theory about hair loss comes down to DHT when there is ample evidence to suggest otherwise.

I'm also not a slave to the idea that hair loss CAN'T be caused by DHT. DHT might very well be the cause but to the best of my knowledge I have seen very little evidence that shows that DHT is the cause of hair loss. There is definitely evidence that shows a correlation between DHT and hair loss but correlation does not prove causation.

The purpose of Polysorbate 80 put forth here to remove sebum is appealing to me. I currently do scalp massages twice a day and part of the idea behind them is to free up trapped sebum under the scalp and it sounds like Polysorbate 80 might assist in that area. However some of the potential negative effects of Polysorbate 80 (particularly the increase of histamine) concern me. Maybe there is another substance out there that has a similar effect without the downsides.

 

[mistermr]

The purpose of Polysorbate 80 put forth here to remove sebum is appealing to me. I currently do scalp massages twice a day and part of the idea behind them is to free up trapped sebum under the scalp and it sounds like Polysorbate 80 might assist in that area. However some of the potential negative effects of Polysorbate 80 (particularly the increase of histamine) concern me. Maybe there is another substance out there that has a similar effect without the downsides.

This.
The potential histamine increase is a concern but if this can be used to free up all that sebum that's been accumulating over the years that damage was being done, it can be a real game changer. Hair loss happens over a long period of time and the damage accumulates so I'm going to give this a shot. I will use it intermittently and let you guys know how it goes.

This isn't the first time I have heard of polysorbate 80. It has been discussed on many hair loss forums. John, from OMG Laser Helmets says it is a big piece to making his laser helmets produce optimal results due to the breakdown of sebum. So the idea is to expedite the break down the accumulated scalp sebum and then have your diet and lifestyle balance it out eventually.

 

[AretnaP]

androgens actually stimulate hair growth; during male development and in females who have elevated androgens.

This is legit, you can't tell anything to people who believe DHT theory.

Spoiler

dude: DHT causes hairloss

RPFer: DHT stimulates the growth of hair on the chest, arms, legs, back and face, how could it cause it in one area but not the rest?

dude: the scalp hair is special, and extra sensitive to DHT

RPFer: There's not a significant difference in DHT between balding men and non-balding men.

dude: Balding men have more DHT receptors in the scalp.

RPFer: That's not legit either.

dude: Well it's all genetics, DHT increases hair growth in every part of the body but causes balding in one area for some men because genetics.

the inevitable end to any rational discussion on hair loss

 

[Peater Piper]

Teenagers would be the baldest.

My main problem with the DHT theory is that the hair on the crown of the head receives the least amount of blood. It should therefore receive the least amount of DHT.

And androgens actually stimulate hair growth; during male development and in females who have elevated androgens.

I think it could be an irrationality which ultimately stems from the overly simplistic, knee-jerk desire to explain all biological sex differences based on sex hormones. Males are different in other ways: they have higher stress hormones and wear hats more often. Calcitriol has been shown to promote hair growth, and mice born without the vitamin D receptor are usually bald (but it depends on where the mutation is in the gene.)

Even humans born without vitamin D receptors (VDRR) often have complete alopecia.

Shouldn't calcitriol be distributed systemically even if the scalp doesn't get UVB rays directly? Not to mention we all have hair in areas that rarely if ever see sunlight. I could see hats exacerbating the situation possibly, but more so from lack of red light and possibly the antimicrobial properties of UV rays.

 

[xetawaves]

This is legit, you can't tell anything to people who believe DHT theory.

Spoiler

dude: DHT causes hairloss

RPFer: DHT stimulates the growth of hair on the chest, arms, legs, back and face, how could it cause it in one area but not the rest?

dude: the scalp hair is special, and extra sensitive to DHT

RPFer: There's not a significant difference in DHT between balding men and non-balding men.

dude: Balding men have more DHT receptors in the scalp.

RPFer: That's not legit either.

dude: Well it's all genetics, DHT increases hair growth in every part of the body but causes balding in one area for some men because genetics.

the inevitable end to any rational discussion on hair loss

lol this is why I stopped visiting those hair loss forums. Those guys are completely hopeless. You'll see some kid join the forum, post about his hair loss, and the only advice they can offer is for him to get on fin asap.
They truly believe it's one of the safest drugs out there.

 

[Travis]

Shouldn't calcitriol be distributed systemically even if the scalp doesn't get UVB rays directly?

Most biochemists would probably say yes, since calcitriol is commonly thought to be produced in the kidneys only. However, Lehmann B. Rudolph convincingly proved that keratinocytes produce calcitriol from vitamin D. Cells on the skin can produce the entire series: cholesterol ⇒ vitamin D ⇒ caldidiol ⇒ calcitriol
Conversion of vitamin D₃ to 1α,25-dihydroxyvitamin D₃ in human skin equivalents
Experimental Dermatology
Lehmann B. Rudolph

Topical vitamin D analogues have reversed alopecia areata, but you won't find any data on it being used to treat androgenic alopecia. Merck basically owns that diagnosis now, and any American doctor who recommends anything besides a 5α-reductase inhibitor might find life becoming increasingly difficult.

Successful Treatment of Alopecia Areata with Topical Calcipotriol
Annals of Dermatology
Dong Ha Kim, M.D


Vitamin D is is steroid hormone too; technically, it's a secosteroid. Injected vitamin D analogues can do this to bald mice:
Click to embiggen
Vitamin D₃ Analogs Stimulate Hair Growth in Nude Mice
Endocrinology
Vijaya Vegesna

So it works both topically and systemically in certain forms of baldness, and has been shown to increase keratin mRNA in vitro. Vitamin D has a nuclear receptor so it acts on DNA⇒RNA transcription directly.

Finasteride doesn't work very well topically. In some studies, it doesn't work at all this way. Here are some quotes from an article called Androgens and the Hair Follicle, published in 1991. This one one year before FDA approval of Finasteride™.

If men lack the enzyme 5α-reductase, they produce only female patterns of axillary and pubic hair and little or no beard growth or temporal recession, even though plasma testosterone concentrations are normal or high. This means that 5α-dihydrotestosterone formation is essential for these types of androgen-dependent hair growth...

It's no secret that DHT stimulates hair growth in certain areas.

All the dermal papilla cell lines examined (n = 10) took up and retained testosterone intracellularly and also metabolized it to androstenedione, whether they were derived from beard (n = 4), scalp (n = 4), or pubis (n = 2). However, only beard cells produced 5α-dihydrotestosterone. Similarly, in the media 5α-dihydrotestosterone was found in beard cells (n = 5) in agreement with an earlier report but was not present in media from scalp (n = 6) or pubis (n = 2)

If the dermal cells transform testosterone to DHT, then why doesn't Finasteride™ work topically? And why doesn't the scalp seem to produce DHT in significant amounts?

...parallel experiments were carried out with the nonmetabolizable synthetic androgen mibolerone; again, there was no effect on beard or scalp cell growth. This inability to detect a growth response to androgens in vitro does not mean that dermal papilla cells are unable to respond to androgens in culture.

The effects of androgens in vitro often appear to be weak.

Androgens are clearly important regulators of human hair follicles, with varying effects depending on the specific site of the follicle and the inherited susceptibility to androgens. The paradoxical ability of androgens to gradually transform vellus follicles to terminal ones and vice versa on different parts of the same body is not understood...

Again the word "paradox". I have read two other studies that used this word to describe the effect of DHT on hair growth.

We have studied androgen action in cultured dermal papilla cells obtained from hair follicles with different responses to androgen in vivo, particularly beard and pubis as androgen-dependent follicles and nonbalding scalp, relatively androgen-independent follicles, as controls.

Yes, she did just say that cells from the scalp were "relatively androgen-independent."

Even more interestingly, there were several important differences between androgen-dependent cells and those from nonbalding scalp; beard cells contained higher levels of androgen receptors, produced much more 5α-dihydrotestosterone when incubated with testosterone, and responded more strongly to mitogenic substances secreted by other dermal papilla cells than nonbalding scalp cells.

Looks like the DHT controls male-specific hair. This should be no surprise. But what confuses me is how DHT can exist in higher amounts throughout most of the male's development only to paradoxically thin the hair follicles only in a "relatively androgen-independent" area (scalp) when DHT is at a lower concentration.
Longitudinal Effects of Aging on Serum Total and Free Testosterone Levels in Healthy Men: The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism

Overall, the intriguing problem of how androgens produce such different effects on the same tissue depending on its body site is certainly not solved, but our understanding should increase greatly in the next few years; further investigations into the mechanisms of androgen, and possibly retinoic acid, action in cultured dermal papilla cells should contribute meaningfully.

Well, I'm not the only person confused by the DHT explanation. Don't be afraid to be skeptical, since leading dermatologists are skeptical too.

This paper has 92 references, so we can probably safely assume that Dr. Randall did her homework.
Androgens and the Hair Follicle: Cultured Human Dermal Papilla Cells as a Model System
ANNALS NEW YORK ACADEMY OF SCIENCES
VALERIE A. RANDALL

 

[Travis]

Not to mention we all have hair in areas that rarely if ever see sunlight.

Some hair is controlled by sex hormones. Remember what happened when you were 12?

Perhaps much has to do with low systemic vitamin D levels, with the smaller and more distal capillaries of the scalp getting lower amounts.

There are high correlations between heart attack and balding. Could this be due to cortisol? or atherosclerosis?

Atheroscelrosis may restrict scalp capillaries further, reducing the blood supply.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

what brand have you used john? Any negative reactions to speak of so far?

 

[Peater Piper]

Some hair is controlled by sex hormones. Remember what happened when you were 12?

Perhaps much has to do with low systemic vitamin D levels, with the smaller and more distal capillaries of the scalp getting lower amounts.

There are high correlations between heart attack and balding. Could this be due to cortisol? or atherosclerosis?

Atheroscelrosis may restrict scalp capillaries further, reducing the blood supply.

So I found this, Assessment of vitamin D receptors in alopecia areata and androgenetic alopecia. - PubMed - NCBI

BACKGROUND:
Alopecia areata (AA) is a frequent autoimmune disease, the pathogenesis of which is still unknown. Androgenetic alopecia (AGA) is a noncicatricial type of patterned hair loss. Expression of vitamin D receptors (VDRs) on keratinocytes is essential for maintenance of normal hair cycle, especially anagen initiation.

OBJECTIVE:
To assess VDRs in the skin and blood of AA and AGA patients, in order to evaluate their possible role in these hair diseases.

METHODS:
This study recruited 20 patients with AA, 20 patients with AGA, and 20 healthy controls. Blood samples and lesional scalp biopsies were taken from all participants for detection of VDR levels.

RESULTS:
Serum and tissue VDR levels were lower in AA as well as AGA patients when compared to controls (P = 0.000). Serum and tissue VDR were positively correlated in each group. Tissue VDR was significantly lower in female patients with AA than males (P = 0.046) although serum and tissue VDR levels were significantly higher in female AGA patients than males (P = 0.004).

CONCLUSION:
This study suggests an important role for VDR in the pathogenesis of AA and AGA through documenting lower serum and tissue VDR levels in AA and AGA patients in comparison with controls.

Yes, calcification and inflammation also seem to play a role in MPB. As if being bald isn't bad enough, we get heart disease on top of it. Yippee.