Why I Believe Very Low Fat ("carbosis") May Be Superior For Lean Bulking

[Gadsie]

This is a post f0r the ones into fitness, which I understand is a controversial topic in the ray peat community, but I thought this was interesting enough to share. I'm not really explaining anything new here, because it's already been talked about a lot on this forum, but the link to bulking has just never been made. Bulking is essentially eating at a caloric surplus while lifting weights in order to gain weight (muscle). It is generally accepted that there will always be some fat gain accompanying this muscle gain. The goal of everybody trying to build a better body is obviously to limit fat gain as much as possible. This is where I believe eating extremely low fat can be beneficial. When you're eating at, say, a 300 calorie surplus a day, 200 of them will go to muscle, and 100 to fat (the numbers are made up for the sake of explanation). However, when all of your excess surplus calories come from protein and carbohydrates, there will be a lot less fat conversion because there is much more energy lost in the conversion from carbs and protein to bodyfat (20-30%), than fat to body fat (2-3%).

This means that a very low fat diet basically gives you a buffer. You still benefit from your caloric surplus in terms of muscle building, but it limits fat gain.

When cutting on the other hand, I don't think it matters. When you eat at a caloric deficit, there is not much fat accumulation going on in the first place, so at that point it really is just about the amount of absolute calories you eat.

Now many people might think that eating low fat lowers testosterone which hurts your ability to build muscle, but I don't think this is the case. It is true that eating higher fat increases your testosterone a little bit (although only 10-15%), but it has been shown that this does not lead to more muscle growth. I think this may be because of androgen sensitivity increasing when your testosterone drops and vice versa. Higher testosterone will only lead to more muscle growth when it's in extreme amounts (steroids). But I lack the medical knowledge to confirm this.

Personally, I have been lean bulking for about 2 months now at ~3800 calories with only 10% coming from fat, and it seems to be going pretty OK. On an bulk a few years ago I followed WAPF with lots of cream etc, and I gained a fair amount of fat, that seems to be drastically less now despite eating roughly the same amount of calories.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Now many people might think that eating low fat lowers testosterone which hurts your ability to build muscle, but I don't think this is the case.

Testosterone is made from cholesterol. Cholesterol is made from Acetyl-CoA. Acetyl-CoA is made from any of the three macronutrients, therefore, cholesterol is still made on a low fat diet, therefore, testosterone is still made on a low fat diet.

Rob Turner, the Peat inspired gym owner, told me when I asked him about my testosterone level "testosterone is downstream. I'm not concerned with it. Focus on upstream.." Meaning focus on the starting point, not the ending, meaning focus on my own pregnenolone production. My T has always felt fine. I can give myself a huge shot of T from muh own nutz just by looking at a hot pair of female legs in real life, as long as they are exactly how I like em.

On an bulk a few years ago I followed WAPF with lots of cream etc, and I gained a fair amount of fat,

Of course. "If you eat lots of butter or cream, it can make you fat.."

.

 

[tca300]

Great post! I will say though that keeping carbohydrates up while losing weight is important for maintaining thyroid function and avoiding metabolic slowdown that typically comes from weight loss.

Cutting weight in the past for me and most others that I know of has always led to low libido and or erectile dysfunction.

But in my experiance keeping sugars at, at least 60% of calories keeps me from experiancing any loss of libido or sexual function. This is my experience, as well as a few others I talk to who cut to really low body fat levels on a high carbohydrate, low fat diet.

I will attach pictures of another example of Alberto Nuñez using a low fat ~10% of kcals for his entire cut, during his natural drug tested bodybuilding contest.

A TRUE LOW FAT, high carbohydrate diet ( not dropping from 40% of fat to 30% - 20% fat, but under 10% kcals from fat ) is absolutely my favorite approach to eating, and has proved to be more sustainable, and health promoting than any other diet I have used over the years ( which are very numerous ).

I predict this is the type of diet I will be on until I die.

 

[Gadsie]

Testosterone is made from cholesterol. Cholesterol is made from Acetyl-CoA. Acetyl-CoA is made from any of the three macronutrients, therefore, cholesterol is still made on a low fat diet, therefore, testosterone is still made on a low fat diet.

Rob Turner, the Peat inspired gym owner, told me when I asked him about my testosterone level "testosterone is downstream. I'm not concerned with it. Focus on upstream.." Meaning focus on the starting point, not the ending, meaning focus on my own pregnenolone production. My T has always felt fine. I can give myself a huge shot of T from my own nutz just by looking at a hot pair of female legs in real life, as long as they are exactly how I like them. Any pair wouldn't do it.



Of course. "If you eat lots of butter or cream, it can make you fat.."

.

Yes testosterone is still made without dietary fat, but it is slightly less. But that doesn't seem to make any practical difference in real life, so it is indeed not something to worry about.

 

[Gadsie]

Great post! I will say though that keeping carbohydrates up while losing weight is important for maintaining thyroid function and avoiding metabolic slowdown that typically comes from weight loss.

Cutting weight in the past for me and most others that I know of has always led to low libido and or erectile dysfunction.

But in my experiance keeping sugars at, at least 60% of calories keeps me from experiancing any loss of libido or sexual function. This is my experience, as well as a few others I talk to who cut to really low body fat levels on a high carbohydrate, low fat diet.

I will attach pictures of another example of Alberto Nuñez using a low fat ~10% of kcals for his entire cut, during his natural drug tested bodybuilding contest.

A TRUE LOW FAT, high carbohydrate diet ( not dropping from 40% of fat to 30% - 20% fat, but under 10% kcals from fat ) is absolutely my favorite approach to eating, and has proved to be more sustainable, and health promoting than any other diet I have used over the years ( which are very numerous ).

I predict this is the type of diet I will be on until I die.

I've seen him on Instagram, ridiculously lean. I didn't know he was on a low fat diet, that's pretty awesome. I will say he looks a bit sickly in the face in my opinion, but that could be due to anything.

 

[squanch]

ersonally, I have been lean bulking for about 2 months now at ~3800 calories with only 10% coming from fat, and it seems to be going pretty OK.

What foods do you eat at the moment? I've always found it very hard to eat more than 3000 kcal on a low fat diet, it tends to be very bulky, especially if you eat a lot of starches.

 

[Gadsie]

What foods do you eat at the moment? I've always found it very hard to eat more than 3000 kcal on a low fat diet, it tends to be very bulky, especially if you eat a lot of starches.

I love rice and potatoes. I also consume large amounts of refined sugar in the form of chocolate milk. Not the most nutritious thing but it's delicious

I attached an example of a random day.

 

[Lucas]

How to get the fat solubles vitamins on a low fat diet

 

[Gadsie]

How to get the fat solubles vitamins on a low fat diet

Most fats don't have a lot of fat soluble vitamins either, except liver amd maybe aged cheese. I just supplement those with a little bit of coconut oil.

 

[Frankdee20]

Why do people choose to live ?

 

[cyclops]

Most fats don't have a lot of fat soluble vitamins either, except liver amd maybe aged cheese. I just supplement those with a little bit of coconut oil.

I wouldn't consider Liver a fat or high fat food. Eggs and oysters have more fat, and I think one can still include all of these on a very low fat diet.

 

[Gadsie]

I wouldn't consider Liver a fat or high fat food. Eggs and oysters have more fat, and I think one can still include all of these on a very low fat diet.

Liver is not very high fat, but if I eat it, I eat a very small amount purely for the micronutrients. I never eat eggs because of the high PUFA content. Anyways, the benefits of low fat I mentioned in the OP already disappear at small amounts of fat. When you eat a lot of carbs, all the dietary fat will be directly stored, and hardly any of it burned because you constantly have muscle and liver glucose available (given that you're in a surplus). Let's say your maintenance calories are 3000, and you are bulking, so you're eating 3300 calories a day. This means that you have a surplus of 300 calories, which is 33 grams of fat. If you are eating >33 grams of fat, the de novo lipogenesis energy expenditure benefit is already eliminated. It's not until >3000 of your 3300 (>90%) calories are from carbs and protein that you are benefiting from this effect, with of course the closer to 100% the more you benefit from it. What I do not know is, if for example you're eating at maintenance, if there perhaps is actually some fat burning going on even if almost all of your calories are coming from carbs and protein. Maybe somebody can fill me in on that.

 

[Ideonaut]

Why do people choose to live ?

If it comes down to choice, there's already a big problem. Urge to live is a biological force. Rudolf Steiner thought that action itself comes from the vigor of the cells. Why act? If you don't have an urge to act, something is wrong healthwise or constitution-wise.

Great post--pushes me over the edge to go low-fat. It's what Haidut thinks is correct, too, so here I go!

 

[cyclops]

Liver is not very high fat, but if I eat it, I eat a very small amount purely for the micronutrients. I never eat eggs because of the high PUFA content. Anyways, the benefits of low fat I mentioned in the OP already disappear at small amounts of fat. When you eat a lot of carbs, all the dietary fat will be directly stored, and hardly any of it burned because you constantly have muscle and liver glucose available (given that you're in a surplus). Let's say your maintenance calories are 3000, and you are bulking, so you're eating 3300 calories a day. This means that you have a surplus of 300 calories, which is 33 grams of fat. If you are eating >33 grams of fat, the de novo lipogenesis energy expenditure benefit is already eliminated. It's not until >3000 of your 3300 (>90%) calories are from carbs and protein that you are benefiting from this effect, with of course the closer to 100% the more you benefit from it. What I do not know is, if for example you're eating at maintenance, if there perhaps is actually some fat burning going on even if almost all of your calories are coming from carbs and protein. Maybe somebody can fill me in on that.

I think it is kind of arbitrary to count calories by 24 hours. Why not by week or by meal?

I bring this up because I think fat burning and storage is more complex then your macronutrient ratios by the end of the day.

I think there is a way of eating that can allow you do a recomp. It may involve bigger meals and smaller meals, the makeup of each meal, and the time between meals.

I think an egg here and there can be good on very low fat diet.

 

[Soundios]

I can confirm this myself. Went a week eating nothing but potatoes, lean meat, orange juice and sugar at over 1000-1500 calories above surplus and lost 3 pounds, looking more muscular and leaner. Fat intake was around 10% of calories. I wouldn't recommend that diet long term though.

 

[cyclops]

I wouldn't recommend that diet long term though.

y knot?

 

[Soundios]

y knot?

I was referring to such a limited choice of foods for a long period of time, however I think it may be beneficial to occasionally eat higher fat as I find that after long periods of going low fat, one or two cheat days of lots of fat leave me feeling rejuvenated after.

 

[cyclops]

I was referring to such a limited choice of foods for a long period of time, however I think it may be beneficial to occasionally eat higher fat as I find that after long periods of going low fat, one or two cheat days of lots of fat leave me feeling rejuvenated after.

I agree. Me too, especially if that fats are from nutritious foods like eggs or something.

 

[Soundios]

As a side note, whole grains cause me to retain water, particularly around my face, whereas refined grains don't and sugars have the complete opposite effect (dryer, leaner look).
Any one have any idea what may be the mechanism behind this?

 

[grenade]

How to get the fat solubles vitamins on a low fat diet

You supplement topically or you supplement orally with small amounts of fat.

Edit: Also, you can get vitamin A in the small amounts you convert from carotene, vitamin D from the sun, vitamin E is unnecessary when PUFAs are non-existent, and K from certain veggies (small amounts of K1 convert to K2) and gut bacteria.