Why I Believe Very Low Fat ("carbosis") May Be Superior For Lean Bulking

D

Deleted member 5487

Guest
Yep. I was laughing and pissed at myself at the same time when I realized this because I though to myself, "what a joke, all that stuff people say is BS."



Yea and people are so confused. "And that’s because cholesterol, next to glucose, is probably our single most important protective all-purpose molecule."-RP (HD sugar II)



Thanks. When did you first read me? I'm just curious.
I just remember reading over your posts/and "tyw" and thinking these two are on to something, and then realized that haidut "sharpness" and expertise sure made him sound credible and authoritative on dannys podcasts, and found you posted somthing about that somehweres"he doesn't know what hes talking about when it comes to starch" or somthing along those lines.
I don't who linked this this website, I think it was you.

McCarbthyism.

But it lays it out and completes the puzzle. And literally fixed my energy/libido/exercise capacity back to what it was when I was 17. I can eat even oats without any gas or bloating now, and literally crave potatos/oats just with some salt, as I get leaner and put on more muscle at the same time.
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2015
Messages
1,972
and found you posted somthing about that somehweres"he doesn't know what hes talking about when it comes to starch" or somthing along those lines.

Yea that was a comment under the first comment here.

I don't who linked this this website, I think it was you.

Yea it was this post.

But it lays it out and completes the puzzle. And literally fixed my energy/libido/exercise capacity back to what it was when I was 17. I can eat even oats without any gas or bloating now, and literally crave potatos/oats just with some salt, as I get leaner and put on more muscle at the same time.

That's great. Natalie and Mark, the founders of that site, did a great job. I've sent it to the various well known starch people to tell them they need to start talking about the difference between boiled and baked and the history of how humans and pre-humans used clay pots to cook it with water and how this is a uniquely human thing. Every species has a diet. It's easy to see how humans did this not to mention our physiology. I hope someone makes a PDF of the whole site and all of the blog posts under the blog section in case it shuts down.
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
Pure Dextrose spills over into fat stores and creates large insulin spikes.

Boiled/Pressure cooked in water of Oats/Potato/White rice for long periods of time are superior for muscle glycogen. This has to do with gelatinization of the starch molecules and adequate chewing allows for Salivary Amylase to "cleave" off glucose molecules and directly increase muscle glycogen storage and insulin sensitivity leaving you full and satisfied.

Baked/fried starch= Bad as it breaks the chains of glucose down at such high heats in the 300-600 degree ovens and dehydrates the molecules rather than hydrate and gelatinize. This dry starch is just pure energy and leads to fat gain/edema/bloating/gas common in starch consumption.

I am no extremist, and still drink/eat alot of orange juice/fruit. But the boiled starch has it's place for those looking to increase insulin sensitivity and athletes/workout.

People who have troubles going low fat, should try boiled starchs as fat free is incredibly easy since the muscles will be adequately fueled and are not screaming for fat.

Anyone trying to lose weight should simple eat boiled starchs+sugar+lean protein and do sprints at 90% max speed 2x a week. I got shredded in like 2 months following this. Eating three pressure cooked salted potatos aft

Read this it will change your view: Boiled-vs-Baked-Starch
Interesting feedback. Out of curiosity, would you mind describing a typical day of eating (and supplementing if you do)? Are you dairy-free?
How would boiled pasta compared to the boiled starch you mention? I know westside isn't a fan of wheat and refined flour in general.
@Westside PUFAs Did you try buckwheat? From what I saw it has good proteins.
 

Glassy

Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
243
Location
Queensland Australia
Pure Dextrose spills over into fat stores and creates large insulin spikes.

I don’t believe that de novo lipogenesis (creating new fat from glucose) is something that occurs to any significant degree except in extreme circumstances (chronically low fat diets for example). Glucose doesn’t just spill over to fat like it’s the easiest thing in the world for your body to do.

I read the info on boiled starches and I found this very interesting. It’s not something I’ve come across before but it makes a lot of sense and explains a hell of a lot. Thank you for sharing it.

It’s funny but I had already drawn a distinction in my mind (essentially creating a 4th macro) between starches and sugars. What I hadn’t done was classify baked/fried starches as being more like sugars than starches (or rather boiled starches). I’d started intuitively to incorporate boiled rice later in the day because I was craving that full/satisfied feeling at night. I still hadn’t noticed that it was the boiled starch I was craving not necessarily the boiled rice. For some reason I’ve been thinking that the boiling would reduce the food’s nutrient value when it was probably having the opposite effect with starch.

I’d previously experimented with trying to consume the vast proportion of my calories from starches alone and found it was an arduous task due to their bulky nature. I was just in the process of trying to find a good balance between sugars and starches and when to eat them (in the day and around workouts). What I probably need to do is find myself a good balance of boiled starches and fruits/sugars.

I don’t think I fully understand how the boiled starches promote glycogen storage though. That site seems to suggest it was because they were slow releasing (ie behaved more like a theoretical complex carb should) from their Pac-Man analogy. A glucose molecule from pop tart is theoretically no different to a glucose molecule from a Boiled potato except that it is released over a longer duration.
 

andrewdcjr

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
16
Interesting feedback. Out of curiosity, would you mind describing a typical day of eating (and supplementing if you do)? Are you dairy-free?
How would boiled pasta compared to the boiled starch you mention? I know westside isn't a fan of wheat and refined flour in general.
@Westside PUFAs Did you try buckwheat? From what I saw it has good proteins.
I agree, what does a full day look like for you? I have tried boiled potatoes and found it difficult to get satiated. How many do you eat on a typical day?
 

Israelibacon

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
35
@Westside PUFAs could you briefly outline some of your trial and error experiments? All of a sudden I have weird reactions to potatoes and dairy and would greatly appreciate your input
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2015
Messages
1,972
@Westside PUFAs could you briefly outline some of your trial and error experiments? All of a sudden I have weird reactions to potatoes and dairy and would greatly appreciate your input

Fill out my form:

Age:

Biological gender of birth, i.e., were you born with testicles or ovaries (please indicate if you take "trans" hormones):

Height:

Weight (in pounds or kilograms, no "stones"):

All pharmaceutical medications you currently take including any birth control, include the duration:

All pharmaceutical medications you have taken in the past including any birth control, include the duration:

All dietary supplements including "natural" hormones you currently take, include the duration:

All dietary supplements including "natural" hormones you have taken in the past, include the duration:

All recreational drugs you currently take (marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamine, etc.), include the duration:

All recreational drugs you've taken in the past (marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamine, etc.), include the duration:

Any kind of nicotine products, include the duration:

Do you have any specific medical conditions (osteoporosis, type one diabetes, HIV, etc.):

Recent and current bowel movement frequency:

Recent and current general diet, be specific as possible:

List any any medical surgeries you've had:

List any cosmetic surgeries you've had:

List any vaccinations you've had:

Activity/movement/exercise on a weekly basis:

What kind of water you drink, if any, and how much:

Do you drink "energy drinks?" (Red Bull, Monster, etc.):

How much non-decaf coffee do you drink?

If female, do you have painful, harsh menstrual cycles?

If female, have you had a hysterectomy or had your ovaries removed?

If male, do you have erectile dysfunction?

Level of sexual satisfaction:

How many hours you sleep per night:

How many times you wake up during sleep:

What hours you sleep from and to, as in "normal" or late like 3am-noon:

What products you put on your skin like make up, soap, and other chemicals:

Approximate location in the world:

How much sunlight you receive directly on your skin and on which parts of the body:

Quality of the air you breathe/environmental exposure to chemicals such as living near a power plant, a freeway, or working in a mine:

How much seafood you eat, how often, and what kind:

If available, recent blood labs taken from you when fasted for at least 12 hours:

What are your health goals?
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 5487

Guest
I don’t believe that de novo lipogenesis (creating new fat from glucose) is something that occurs to any significant degree except in extreme circumstances (chronically low fat diets for example). Glucose doesn’t just spill over to fat like it’s the easiest thing in the world for your body to do.

I read the info on boiled starches and I found this very interesting. It’s not something I’ve come across before but it makes a lot of sense and explains a hell of a lot. Thank you for sharing it.

It’s funny but I had already drawn a distinction in my mind (essentially creating a 4th macro) between starches and sugars. What I hadn’t done was classify baked/fried starches as being more like sugars than starches (or rather boiled starches). I’d started intuitively to incorporate boiled rice later in the day because I was craving that full/satisfied feeling at night. I still hadn’t noticed that it was the boiled starch I was craving not necessarily the boiled rice. For some reason I’ve been thinking that the boiling would reduce the food’s nutrient value when it was probably having the opposite effect with starch.

I’d previously experimented with trying to consume the vast proportion of my calories from starches alone and found it was an arduous task due to their bulky nature. I was just in the process of trying to find a good balance between sugars and starches and when to eat them (in the day and around workouts). What I probably need to do is find myself a good balance of boiled starches and fruits/sugars.

I don’t think I fully understand how the boiled starches promote glycogen storage though. That site seems to suggest it was because they were slow releasing (ie behaved more like a theoretical complex carb should) from their Pac-Man analogy. A glucose molecule from pop tart is theoretically no different to a glucose molecule from a Boiled potato except that it is released over a longer duration.

The seperation between boiled and baked/fried starch is Huge.

One can Shredd weight off the body eating them, simply becuase the fuel the cells so well, max glycogen storage, and are bulky.

My meals are Pressure water cooked starchs, lean meat or milk, no added fat, plenty of salt and some fructose souce.= Dropping fat and gaining muscle
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
Not yet. There are a few grains I still need to start cooking. Teff, sorghum, spelt, triticale etc.
I tried sorghum with good effects but also bad ones (increased hair loss’ allergies and asthma), it can get infested with kernels if stored for some time at room temperature. I think there could be issues regarding toxicity (was it nitrates ?).
 

signalguy

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
40
The seperation between boiled and baked/fried starch is Huge.

One can Shredd weight off the body eating them, simply becuase the fuel the cells so well, max glycogen storage, and are bulky.

My meals are Pressure water cooked starchs, lean meat or milk, no added fat, plenty of salt and some fructose souce.= Dropping fat and gaining muscle
How do you season your boiled starches. For cream of rice, I need some cream and sugar. And I can't imagine eating a potato without butter and sour cream.
 
D

Deleted member 5487

Guest
How do you season your boiled starches. For cream of rice, I need some cream and sugar. And I can't imagine eating a potato without butter and sour cream.

If it's potatos proporally boiled in salt and garlic/pressured cooked you will quickly learn to like it.

I do not prefer rice it lacks the potassium and nutrients like white sugar it gives me adrenaline and hypoglycemia.

Organic, non steamed oats( not quick minute) are a great breakfast staple. If cooked long enough there will be no gas or endotoxin. Honey and cinnamon are good.

Just takes a little time. When starch are cooked the way there suppose to be, seriously boiled, u will find true energy and fullness eith them and not need mounds of butter/cream to make them palatable and energy dense.
 

signalguy

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
40
If it's potatos proporally boiled in salt and garlic/pressured cooked you will quickly learn to like it.

I do not prefer rice it lacks the potassium and nutrients like white sugar it gives me adrenaline and hypoglycemia.

Organic, non steamed oats( not quick minute) are a great breakfast staple. If cooked long enough there will be no gas or endotoxin. Honey and cinnamon are good.

Just takes a little time. When starch are cooked the way there suppose to be, seriously boiled, u will find true energy and fullness eith them and not need mounds of butter/cream to make them palatable and energy dense.

I have the Instant Pot pressure cooker. Will it work in this?
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2015
Messages
1,972
ust takes a little time. When starch are cooked the way there suppose to be, seriously boiled, u will find true energy and fullness eith them and not need mounds of butter/cream to make them palatable and energy dense.

For some, it can take a long time to adapt to low fat if they come from eating high fat. Very few have the dedication to get past the adaptation phase. I've been low fat since mid-2014 but I will soon go on the ultimate low fat experiment where I will consume no overt fats for 90 days. I'm putting the idea of no overt fat satiation after 3 months to the test. I will eat only rice, potatoes, other starches, cooked greens, lentils and beans, fruit and other fibrous foods like raw carrot/celery etc. To make it even harder, I'll be doing no added salt. It takes about 30 days to adapt to no salt. It's the natural hygiene philosophy of "hygienists" though some of them were raw foodists others included cooked foods. And some ate fat. I will lose a ton of water weight from no salt. There is some salt in cooked greens and other foods. Distilled water when thirsty and for cooking. Small amounts of fresh fruit juice but I'm limiting all fructose but should get enough vitamin C. It's the ultimate test to see if it's true that there will be no craving for coconut sorbet or peanut butter after a filling meal. There's that special hunger people have after they're full. More carrots and potatoes or fruit won't do it. It's something else. They want fat. Ice cream, nut butter, peanut brittle etc. Sweet fat but still fat. Fat proponents will exclaim "well that must mean that fat is healthy if they crave it. listen to your body.." and to that I say hogwash. It's that people are adapted to it but they can change that. I will put it to the test. And I predict that I'll find that after the adaptation phase, a coconut sorbet will make me vomit or at least very nauseous.

"why would you wanna do that?"

To prove to myself that fat is the least important macornutirent and more importantly that I can feel even more amazing than I already do without it. Same for salt. There is a small amount of fat naturally in the foods I'll be eating but I will consume nothing on this list and no animal fats, not even "lean" protein which often isn't even lean. Peat thinks there is no such thing as an essential fatty acid and that we make our own fats from sugar, starch and amino acids. So my body will use the small amount of fat in the foods I'll eat and make the amount of fat it needs. No need to ingest overt fats.

https://www.healthscience.org/heritage/natural-hygiene-movement
 
Last edited:

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
I just tried oats, not rolled, it was a nice mix of rubber and stinky toes sweat.
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
How do you season your boiled starches. For cream of rice, I need some cream and sugar. And I can't imagine eating a potato without butter and sour cream.
Ketchup, herbs, maybe spices. Without cheese things like pasta lose all their interest.
 

Israelibacon

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
35
@Westside PUFAs

Fill out my form:

Age:
28

Biological gender of birth, i.e., were you born with testicles or ovaries (please indicate if you take "trans" hormones):
Male

Height:
5'8''

Weight (in pounds or kilograms, no "stones"):
169lbs (14-15% body fat)

All pharmaceutical medications you currently take including any birth control, include the duration:
None

All pharmaceutical medications you have taken in the past including any birth control, include the duration:
Brief stints of the following: Testosterone (3x2 weeks separated by 8 weeks each), Exemestane (2-3 weeks), Letrozole (during cycle, plus post: 2-3 weeks), Clomifene (3x2 weeks [PCT]), Nebivolol (on and off during low impact cardio), Metoprolol (same as nebivolol); previous cycle of DNP (~4 weeks of 250-500mg/day)

All dietary supplements including "natural" hormones you currently take, include the duration:
on/off 5mg sublingual DHEA, 25mg Pregnenolone; previous usage of T3 - 6-12.5mcg, Duration = 1-3 months on/off

All dietary supplements including "natural" hormones you have taken in the past, include the duration:
on/off 5000iu Vitamin D, 25k-40k Retinyl Palmitate, 400-800mg Magnesium Glycinate, 50mg Zinc Gluconate, 5-10g Glutamine, 600mg KSM-66 (aswahgandha), 700mg Mucuna (15% L-Dopa), 3-5g Taurine; 1.5-2.0g Niacin 2-3x/week (for cholesterol); 1.5g Niacinamide (1x/week)

A few days ago, I tried a "Vitamin C Flush" experiment. Went up to 10g of Ascorbic Acid and stopped, but did not receive any ill-effects (as the point of the flush is to induce an "enema-like" effect). If anything, I felt calm and collected. Current dosage is around 3g/day.


All recreational drugs you currently take (marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamine, etc.), include the duration:
None

All recreational drugs you've taken in the past (marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamine, etc.), include the duration:
Once/month Marijuana usage

Any kind of nicotine products, include the duration:
Previous smoker (1-2 cigarettes/day) - haven't smoked cigarettes in 3 months; sublingual nicotine before workout (5-9mg) - duration = 1-2 months (this was Feb 2017- March 2017)

Do you have any specific medical conditions (osteoporosis, type one diabetes, HIV, etc.):
None diagnosed yet

Recent and current bowel movement frequency:
Only in the mornings upon waking. Bowel movements stop mid-day and constipated in the evening

Recent and current general diet, be specific as possible:
Tried High Fat/Low Carb a few weeks past; current macros: (155p, 155c, 75f) for 3 days (trying to lose weight), once a week high cal days = (145p, 320c, 65f). Beforehand, diet was out of place due to frustration

List any any medical surgeries you've had:
None

List any cosmetic surgeries you've had:
None

List any vaccinations you've had:
Only two injections of HPV vaccination (missed the third one). Hep B. All vaccinations were conducted in early 2016.

Activity/movement/exercise on a weekly basis:
Weight training 4-5x/week

What kind of water you drink, if any, and how much:
Water 3-4L/Day

Do you drink "energy drinks?" (Red Bull, Monster, etc.):
Nope

How much non-decaf coffee do you drink?
Turkish Coffee: 9-20g/day (2-3 cups coffee)

If male, do you have erectile dysfunction?
Slight

Level of sexual satisfaction:
On 1-10: 3-4

How many hours you sleep per night:
Try for 8, sometimes get 6, but I try to make it up for it over the weekend

How many times you wake up during sleep:
Now? I sleep through. Until a few weeks ago, I would wake up at least once; few months ago, I would wake up 2-3 times.

What hours you sleep from and to, as in "normal" or late like 3am-noon:
From 10-11pm to 6am (sometimes 8am)

What products you put on your skin like make up, soap, and other chemicals:
Some soap

Approximate location in the world:
Israel -relocated from New Jersey (might be moving to North Carolina in 2018)

How much sunlight you receive directly on your skin and on which parts of the body:
Try for at least 10-20 min/day on face and arms.

Quality of the air you breathe/environmental exposure to chemicals such as living near a power plant, a freeway, or working in a mine:
Construction on my street (moving next week). I live in an old building, so there might be mold? No power plant, freeway or mines.

How much seafood you eat, how often, and what kind:
Sardines: 3-4x/week. Shrimp 1-2x/week

If available, recent blood labs taken from you when fasted for at least 12 hours:
Available and uploaded.

What are your health goals?
Regain my health; lower bloat and gut inflammation; increase nutrient absorption from food; lose weight (I used to be 160lbs at 10% body fat up until 6 months ago)
 

Attachments

  • d8c03_myTests.pdf
    203.9 KB · Views: 17
  • fe431_myTests.pdf
    329.2 KB · Views: 9
  • afe84_myTests.pdf
    645.3 KB · Views: 7
  • 71c79_myTests.pdf
    281.3 KB · Views: 6
  • 1a2dc_myTests.pdf
    499.6 KB · Views: 5
  • 636d3_myTests.pdf
    645.9 KB · Views: 9
  • 88c7f_myTests.pdf
    187.8 KB · Views: 5
  • 1fc08_myTests.pdf
    294.3 KB · Views: 7
  • b5882_myTests.pdf
    294.2 KB · Views: 10
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 5487

Guest
For some, it can take a long time to adapt to low fat if they come from eating high fat. Very few have the dedication to get past the adaptation phase. I've been low fat since mid-2014 but I will soon go on the ultimate low fat experiment where I will consume no overt fats for 90 days. I'm putting the idea of no overt fat satiation after 3 months to the test. I will eat only rice, potatoes, other starches, cooked greens, lentils and beans, fruit and other fibrous foods like raw carrot/celery etc. To make it even harder, I'll be doing no added salt. It takes about 30 days to adapt to no salt. It's the natural hygiene philosophy of "hygienists" though some of them were raw foodists others included cooked foods. And some ate fat. I will lose a ton of water weight from no salt. There is some salt in cooked greens and other foods. Distilled water when thirsty and for cooking. Small amounts of fresh fruit juice but I'm limiting all fructose but should get enough vitamin C. It's the ultimate test to see if it's true that there will be no craving for coconut sorbet or peanut butter after a filling meal. There's that special hunger people have after they're full. More carrots and potatoes or fruit won't do it. It's something else. They want fat. Ice cream, nut butter, peanut brittle etc. Sweet fat but still fat. Fat proponents will exclaim "well that must mean that fat is healthy if they crave it. listen to your body.." and to that I say hogwash. It's that people are adapted to it but they can change that. I will put it to the test. And I predict that I'll find that after the adaptation phase, a coconut sorbet will make me vomit or at least very nauseous.

"why would you wanna do that?"

To prove to myself that fat is the least important macornutirent and more importantly that I can feel even more amazing than I already do without it. Same for salt. There is a small amount of fat naturally in the foods I'll be eating but I will consume nothing on this list and no animal fats, not even "lean" protein which often isn't even lean. Peat thinks there is no such thing as an essential fatty acid and that we make our own fats from sugar, starch and amino acids. So my body will use the small amount of fat in the foods I'll eat and make the amount of fat it needs. No need to ingest overt fats.

https://www.healthscience.org/heritage/natural-hygiene-movement

That's intense.
I have drifted away from fat, orginally on a all fruit/juice diet for carbs I had strong needs for fat just to get some heat. Starch has eliminated this.

I have a few questions @Westside PUFAs

1) Does pressure cooked/boiled starch stay "good" in the refrigerator? For what length of time?

I see to do much better on freshly cooked, but it is marginal.

I would love to do massive pots of oats and potatoes for like 2-3 days of prep then add in some eggs/milk/OJ and have my diet covered.

Doing like 2 hours of pressure cooking a day is a little hard, so is cleaning the pot
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom