Why I Believe Very Low Fat ("carbosis") May Be Superior For Lean Bulking

[Wagner83]

y knot?

Damn.

 

[Jem Oz]

Hey @tca300 I'm a fan of your weight loss advice and I've just embarked on a VLF, high carb experiment. What do you think about starch? Avoid whilst losing weight, or would 2 or 3 spuds a week be ok?

 

[tca300]

Hey @tca300 I'm a fan of your weight loss advice and I've just embarked on a VLF, high carb experiment. What do you think about starch? Avoid whilst losing weight, or would 2 or 3 spuds a week be ok?

I dont eat starch, but some seem to crave it badly.
If you aren't allergic, and dont notice bacteria issues, then it might be ok.

 

[Gadsie]

Hey @tca300 I'm a fan of your weight loss advice and I've just embarked on a VLF, high carb experiment. What do you think about starch? Avoid whilst losing weight, or would 2 or 3 spuds a week be ok?

In terms of weight loss/gain it doesn't matter. In theory too much fructose can lead to fatty liver, but I eat hundreds of grams of sugar a day and don't have any liver fat (DEXA confirmed), so in my experience it really doesn't matter whether you consume starch or sugar.

 

[Jem Oz]

Thanks for that fellas. @Gadsie you're a fan of the calories in/calories out 'approach' - I wonder what you make of people on these forums who say calories don't matter? There are stories of people losing weight eating well over 3000 cals a day (some even claiming they ate 6000 cals), who say simply eat to hunger, keep metabolism high and you'll naturally lose weight when your body knows it's 'safe' to do so.

There are people who swear the only way to lose weight is to avoid Niaciminide and Aspirin, or starch, there are people who swear they've only lost weight on VLF, others saying they lost weight eating 70-100g of fat a day, people only losing weight when they added in exercise, others saying they never exercised and still lost weight, people saying the whole 'maintenance calories' model is wrong, given that your body's needs change each day etc etc etc.

It's confusing stuff.

Maybe there is no single approach that works for everyone, and I've just answered my own question....

 

[Westside PUFAs]

or would 2 or 3 spuds a week be ok?

Per week? I do triple that amount in a day.

There are people who swear the only way to lose weight is to avoid Niaciminide and Aspirin, or starch, there are people who swear they've only lost weight on VLF, others saying they lost weight eating 70-100g of fat a day, people only losing weight when they added in exercise, others saying they never exercised and still lost weight, people saying the whole 'maintenance calories' model is wrong, given that your body's needs change each day etc etc etc.

Don't worry about what anyone swears by. Just do you. The fact will always remain though that no matter what someone did to lose body fat, they forced their body to use that stored fat for energy. That's the only way it happens. It doesn't just magically disappear because of a certain food or supplement. It gets used for energy. And it will only continue to sit there until you force your body to use it for energy. Then once you lose the amount you want, as long as you don't put it back on you never have to worry about it again.

 

[Gadsie]

I agree with Westside, it IS all about calories in/out. But there are a lot of factors which can influence the "out". And because of this people make up all kinds of weird theories about how calories don't matter. Supplements might increase body temperature for example (a tiny amount) so you could burn a few extra calories. De novo lipogenesis is also simply a process that increases the "out" etc.

 

[cyclops]

The fact will always remain though that no matter what someone did to lose body fat, they forced their body to use that stored fat for energy.

But what if the stored fat on your body is so toxic that your body doesn't want to use it as energy?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

But what if the stored fat on your body is so toxic that your body doesn't want to use it as energy?

The body doesn't have a choice. It's there and it will use it for energy if you make it. And if you want it to not be there then it has to be used. Aside from pufa, the chemicals you've ingested (food dyes, plastics, stabilizers, gums, additives, PCB's, pesticides, toxic amounts of fat soluble vitamins that people take etc.) have also been stored in those same fat droplets called adipocytes and when you decide to finally use that fat for energy and liberate it into the bloodstream, those chemicals will be right there alongside side the pufa, giving you a double whammy. Whether you do it slowly or quickly it doesn't matter because your body's reaction to the pufa and chemicals is up to it and you just have to hope for the best. People just assume that using that fat slowly is the best or better. Well, yes, it's better in the sense that it's more comfortable and easier to do socially. But not everyone wants to do it slowly and also even if you do it slowly that still doesn't guarantee that you won't feel crappy sometimes. You have to get it out of you and just get the process over with. I've witnessed people doing water-only fasts. Talk about pufa depletion. That's pufa depletion for that as*. In that state you're burning though at least a half a pound of your body fat every day. To my surprise, people do pretty well and often feel amazing around a week or so with extreme mental clarity. So that tells me that either they didn't have a lot of chemicals stored or their liver and kidneys and body elimination system and immune system are all efficient. Rumors about "slowed" BMR don't appear to be true to the people I've seen. That is the ultimate way and essentially the original purposeful way nature intended to use your stored body fat for energy. Conversely, some people go through what's called a healing crisis, where they get symptoms and they have to go for as long as they need to until the symptoms subside. But most people won't do that so the only other option is to find a way to use it for energy while still eating daily. And thats where all the the debate and arguing and products and marketing comes in.

 

[cyclops]

The body doesn't have a choice. It's there and it will use it for energy if you make it. And if you want it to not be there then it has to be used. Aside from pufa, the chemicals you've ingested (food dyes, plastics, stabilizers, gums, additives, PCB's, pesticides, toxic amounts of fat soluble vitamins that people take etc.) have also been stored in those same fat droplets called adipocytes and when you decide to finally use that fat for energy and liberate it into the bloodstream, those chemicals will be right there alongside side the pufa, giving you a double whammy. Whether you do it slowly or quickly, doesn't matter because your body's reaction to the pufa and chemicals is up to it and you just have to hope for the best. People just assume that using that fat slowly is the best or better. Well, yes, it's better in the sense that it's more comfortable and easier to do socially. But not everyone wants to do it slow and also even if you do it slowly that still doesn't guarantee that you won't feel crappy sometimes. You have to get it out of you and just get the process over with. I witnessed people doing water-only fasts. Talk about pufa depletion. That's pufa depletion for that as*. In that state you're burning though at least a half a pound of your body fat every day. To my surprise, people do pretty well and often feel amazing around a week or so with extreme mental clarity. So that tells me that either they didn't have a lot of chemicals stored or their liver and kidneys and body elimination system and immune system are all efficient. That is the ultimate way and essentially the original purposeful way nature intended to use your stored body fat for energy. But most people won't do that so the only other option is to find a way to use it for energy while still eating daily. And thats where all the the debate and arguing and products and marketing comes in.

This is great info. Thanks.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

This is great info. Thanks.

See here too:

"Remember, body fat is basically just a reserve source of energy and fat cells are the like the storage tanks. Unlike a gas tank in your car which is fixed in size, however, fat cells can expand or shrink in size depending on how "filled" they are.

Picture a balloon that is not inflated: It's tiny when not filled with air - maybe the size of your thumb. When you blow it up with air, it can expand 10 or 12 times it's normal size, because it simply fills up. That's what happens to fat cells: They start as nearly empty fat storage "tanks" (when you are lean), and when energy intake exceeds your needs, your fat cells "fill up" and "stretch out" like balloons filling up with jelly (not a pretty picture, is it?)

So you don't actually "lose" fat cells, you "shrink" or "empty out" fat cells."

.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

How to get the fat solubles vitamins on a low fat diet

Lets go through them. D is meant to be sourced from the sun, or a supplement. There is no food source that supplies enough D to maintain optimal levels, unless you drink a bottle of CLO daily but enjoy the pufa with it. E is not needed unless you eat pufa or have high history of pufa and even then Peat has said that E should be used "sparingly." Vitamin A can be converted from carotene which Peat has confirmed in the context of a healthy thyroid, enough B12, which is how one should be functioning optimally. But if you don't eat carotene then a supplement seems the only other way because most people don't eat enough liver and enough egg yolks to maintain optimal A levels not to mention all the stuff you wouldn't want even if you were willing to eat that much liver and yolks (pufa, amino acids And K is found abundantly in many foods. I talk about K2 here.

The mega dosing of ADEK is simply personal experimentation and maybe rightly so for individuals.

The fat in milk barely has any vitamins. It has tiny amounts of A naturally but it's mostly added, K2 if you're lucky, and D is also added. It's not a practical source of those vitamins. It's not the fat in milk that is valuable. It's the lactose, calcium, and casein that are valuable and those aren't in the fat.

 

[Lucas]

Is a retinol blood test enougth to see vitamin A status like we do with vitamin D because mine is normal and i eat liver and egg yolk

 

[Gadsie]

The body doesn't have a choice. It's there and it will use it for energy if you make it. And if you want it to not be there then it has to be used. Aside from pufa, the chemicals you've ingested (food dyes, plastics, stabilizers, gums, additives, PCB's, pesticides, toxic amounts of fat soluble vitamins that people take etc.) have also been stored in those same fat droplets called adipocytes and when you decide to finally use that fat for energy and liberate it into the bloodstream, those chemicals will be right there alongside side the pufa, giving you a double whammy. Whether you do it slowly or quickly it doesn't matter because your body's reaction to the pufa and chemicals is up to it and you just have to hope for the best. People just assume that using that fat slowly is the best or better. Well, yes, it's better in the sense that it's more comfortable and easier to do socially. But not everyone wants to do it slowly and also even if you do it slowly that still doesn't guarantee that you won't feel crappy sometimes. You have to get it out of you and just get the process over with. I've witnessed people doing water-only fasts. Talk about pufa depletion. That's pufa depletion for that as*. In that state you're burning though at least a half a pound of your body fat every day. To my surprise, people do pretty well and often feel amazing around a week or so with extreme mental clarity. So that tells me that either they didn't have a lot of chemicals stored or their liver and kidneys and body elimination system and immune system are all efficient. Rumors about "slowed" BMR don't appear to be true to the people I've seen. That is the ultimate way and essentially the original purposeful way nature intended to use your stored body fat for energy. Conversely, some people go through what's called a healing crisis, where they get symptoms and they have to go for as long as they need to until the symptoms subside. But most people won't do that so the only other option is to find a way to use it for energy while still eating daily. And thats where all the the debate and arguing and products and marketing comes in.

I also think that the "slow weight loss is less stressful" is a bit of a meme. It's less stressful but takes longer so the net amount of stress is still the same. I will say that water fasting causes muscle loss for a trained individual.

 

[Gadsie]

@Westside PUFAs, would you know if fat cells continue to aromatize when you lost the fat? You create fat cells when you get fat, and fat cells decrease in size when you lose it, but they never disappear.

 

[superhuman]

@Gadsie i know some Russian scientists says that dry fasting actually destroys the fat cells, but water fasting or other weight loss tools just empty/shrink them

 

[Jem Oz]

Good to get your insights @Gadsie and @Westside PUFAs. What you're saying does fly in the face of other stuff I've read round these parts, and on sites like Matt Stone's. The whole thing about eating to ensure high metabolism, well-functioning thyroid etc.

Are you guys under 30 years old by any chance? It sounds cliched when you're younger, but things really do start to change the other side of 30. I remember when I was in my 20s it was EXTREMELY easy for me to lose weight simply by cutting calories (I never gave a fat rat's about macro's back then).

Then in the last couple of years my weight seemed to rise and then get stuck, and the old measures became less effective. I cut calories in the exact same way I used to, and I started intense boxing classes 2-3 times a week, and I literally couldn't budge the spare tyre.

I dunno. I'm super keen to slim down right now, and I think I've read too many conflicting articles/accounts to know which path to go down.

 

[cyclops]

I also think that the "slow weight loss is less stressful" is a bit of a meme. It's less stressful but takes longer so the net amount of stress is still the same.

Don't tell that to @ecstatichamster

 

[cyclops]

@Westside PUFAs, would you know if fat cells continue to aromatize when you lost the fat? You create fat cells when you get fat, and fat cells decrease in size when you lose it, but they never disappear.

Is there really no way to ever get rid of fat cells. Say you lost allot of body fat and then kept yourself very lean for a very long time, for instance?

 

[dbh25]

Good to get your insights @Gadsie and @Westside PUFAs
Are you guys under 30 years old by any chance? It sounds cliched when you're younger, but things really do start to change the other side of 30.

I had my major weight loss starting at 38. I was steadily putting on weight since college.