Why I Am Done With Peating Per Se

[danielbb]

This observation by Peat is one of the strangest he's made. It's akin to Ancel Keys cherry-picking data to suit his lipid hypothesis. One wouldn't walk into an Asian where the average BMI is much lower than the US and say that their leanness must be from all the rice they eat, and the low amount of dairy in their diets. And if one does make this observation, it's probably because he has some kind of pro-vegan confirmation bias. In both cases, how do we know that the leanness observed is not due to other confounders from diet, lifestyle choices, environment, etc?

Great questions that I don't know the answers to. I am not sure I have quoted Ray's views accurately either.

I look at food as a drug like any other drug. There are positive and negative reactions that are possible and in some cases, the combinations of substances can contribute to the reaction. I've found that in order to figure things out for myself, I've had to simplify things greatly so I could see what the effects were, and possible negative effects. Trying to change one variable at a time if you will and see what happens. I found by accident that sugar had a beneficial effect on me and I was confused by that. If you read just about any mainstream source on the Internet, almost all talk about the evils of sugar. I am not talking about eating bowlfuls of it all day long. I am talking about strategic doses in moderation such as by consuming fruit, OJ, and drinking a Coke now and then. I started researching and that is how I found Ray because he does talk about the benefits of sugar and that at least fit my anecdotal model. I never knew about the importance our liver had on thyroid function and how sugar plays a role in that, for example.

I started reading him and especially in regard to PUFA, he made lots of sense to me. Started listening to his youtube snippets. Things he suggested I would try one thing at a time so I could observe the effects. If it seemed beneficial, I would keep it. If not, I let it go. I started using milk and OJ, for example, and rapidly gained weight. I saw where he said that he uses 1% milk so I switched to that and it seemed to help. I wanted to increase my natural vitamin C consumption so I increased the amount of OJ I was drinking and that forced me to back off the milk. I was at 8 glasses of 1% milk per day and 1 glass of OJ and was gaining weight at approximately 1600-1800 calories per day along with regular exercise.

When I switched from 8 cups milk/1 cup OJ to 4 cups milk and 4 cups OJ, the weight came off immediately. Both systems were exactly the same calorically and protein was held constant at about 95 grams per day from meat, gelatin (upped this also when backing off milk), and the milk. The raw carrot suggestion seems to improve my digestion but they are inexpensive and seem harmless enough. Coconut oil caused my runny nose to return so I backed off that (Ray said runny nose is from a gut reaction and I believe him about that as I no longer have a runny nose).

My diet per day, is breakfast: Milk/gelatin, OJ, and an apple with some brown sugar. Lunch is usually one raw carrot. Dinner is milk/gelatin with a burger, sometimes white mashed potato, raw onion, and organic ketchup. Before bed, a Mexican Coke always works but lately, I've found that an apple with brown sugar works exceedingly well for sleep quality and hormonal output during the night. I know that sounds ridiculously simple and restrictive but those things have been found to work 100% for me and I enjoy them. My wife thinks I am a crackpot. Ray has a low opinion of apples due to pectin but I have found they work exceedingly well for me. I don't eat things because Ray says to or someone here says one ought to. I've listened to the suggestions, tried them, and kept the ones that work.

 

[Blossom]

Great questions that I don't know the answers to. I am not sure I have quoted Ray's views accurately either.

I look at food as a drug like any other drug. There are positive and negative reactions that are possible and in some cases, the combinations of substances can contribute to the reaction. I've found that in order to figure things out for myself, I've had to simplify things greatly so I could see what the effects were, and possible negative effects. Trying to change one variable at a time if you will and see what happens. I found by accident that sugar had a beneficial effect on me and I was confused by that. If you read just about any mainstream source on the Internet, almost all talk about the evils of sugar. I am not talking about eating bowlfuls of it all day long. I am talking about strategic doses in moderation such as by consuming fruit, OJ, and drinking a Coke now and then. I started researching and that is how I found Ray because he does talk about the benefits of sugar and that at least fit my anecdotal model. I never knew about the importance our liver had on thyroid function and how sugar plays a role in that, for example.

I started reading him and especially in regard to PUFA, he made lots of sense to me. Started listening to his youtube snippets. Things he suggested I would try one thing at a time so I could observe the effects. If it seemed beneficial, I would keep it. If not, I let it go. I started using milk and OJ, for example, and rapidly gained weight. I saw where he said that he uses 1% milk so I switched to that and it seemed to help. I wanted to increase my natural vitamin C consumption so I increased the amount of OJ I was drinking and that forced me to back off the milk. I was at 8 glasses of 1% milk per day and 1 glass of OJ and was gaining weight at approximately 1600-1800 calories per day along with regular exercise.

When I switched from 8 cups milk/1 cup OJ to 4 cups milk and 4 cups OJ, the weight came off immediately. Both systems were exactly the same calorically and protein was held constant at about 95 grams per day from meat, gelatin (upped this also when backing off milk), and the milk. The raw carrot suggestion seems to improve my digestion but they are inexpensive and seem harmless enough. Coconut oil caused my runny nose to return so I backed off that (Ray said runny nose is from a gut reaction and I believe him about that as I no longer have a runny nose).

My diet per day, is breakfast: Milk/gelatin, OJ, and an apple with some brown sugar. Lunch is usually one raw carrot. Dinner is milk/gelatin with a burger, sometimes white mashed potato, raw onion, and organic ketchup. Before bed, a Mexican Coke always works but lately, I've found that an apple with brown sugar works exceedingly well for sleep quality and hormonal output during the night. I know that sounds ridiculously simple and restrictive but those things have been found to work 100% for me and I enjoy them. My wife thinks I am a crackpot. Ray has a low opinion of apples due to pectin but I have found they work exceedingly well for me. I don't eat things because Ray says to or someone here says one ought to. I've listened to the suggestions, tried them, and kept the ones that work.

I've noticed over time there are periods where I need to reevaluate and adjust accordingly. Your example of switching from Mexican coke to an apple with brown sugar before bed reminded me of that process. At times it's seems mostly subconscious but other times the idea might come from reading about another person's experience and it resonates with me as something to consider.

 

[rei]

I could have myself written what you did in the OP.

And i don't consider it to be to quit peating. There are approximately as many views on what peating is as there are forum members. Many completely misinterpret what he has said.


People need to realize that usually in science he (and everyone) is talking about the hypothetical average person. This is only what science can give you. It is a completely different thing how to apply it to you, personally. Everyone's body reacts differently to different things, at different times, etc. And ONLY by learning to listen to your body can you integrate the science with what actually is best for you, personally, right now.

 

[stevrd]

Great questions that I don't know the answers to. I am not sure I have quoted Ray's views accurately either.

I've listened to the suggestions, tried them, and kept the ones that work.

You have quoted Ray accurately. What you wrote is pretty much exactly what he said in the interview. I do think dairy has it's merits, is very anabolic, and provide ample calcium and potassium. Calcium stimulates cAMP, and does play a role in metabolism. But as the author of the link below states, it will only cause weight loss in a calorie deficit. Any metabolic advantage in isocaloric settings is just speculation because the research hasn't been done.
Calcium Intake and Weight Loss

So I truly believe that dairy does provide a boost in metabolism, but I think it's misleading to claim that it's the sole reason for the difference between one country's leanness vs another's. There are plenty of examples that show just the opposite effect. Just playing devil's advocate.

It's great that you are trying his suggestions and only keeping what works. That's how you truly find out what works for you. I still drink plenty of soda per what I read from Peat because it just makes me feel a lot better. I tried carbonated water, thinking it was simply the carbon dioxide, and it didn't produce the same effect. There's something about sugar + CO2 that does it for me. Immediately lowers stress in a profound way.

 

[danielbb]

I still drink plenty of soda per what I read from Peat because it just makes me feel a lot better. I tried carbonated water, thinking it was simply the carbon dioxide, and it didn't produce the same effect. There's something about sugar + CO2 that does it for me. Immediately lowers stress in a profound way.

I found by accident that Coke was a miracle drug for me. It was that discovery that led me to the works of Ray Peat and eventually here. It works especially well for me just before bed. Full disclosure - I've made that suggestion to others and they have had trouble sleeping due to the caffeine. It works like a knockout drug for me and produces an anabolic response every time I do it. Lately, I've been getting just as good of a response, if not better from apples and brown sugar before bed as I noted above. Since they are less expensive than bottled Coke imported from Mexico, I've been relying on them more lately and using the Coke when the feeling hits me. I totally agree with your sugar + CO2 claim.

 

[Cirion]

I'm starting to think now that environment matters far more than diet. It seems no matter how OCD I get on diet, health doesn't improve the way I want it to.

In particular sunlight affects metabolism in a profound way, and no amount of fixing diet can replace sunlight I now believe.

 

[Runenight201]

Personally I think good digestion and gut health > diet.

Agreed, and is probably why some people can eat whatever the hell they want and be healthy. By eating whatever the hell they want, what they are actually doing is listening to their body's cravings and eating highly digestible foods that don't upset them and energize and nourish, even if it's junk food.

I've been thinking lately that poor health may be a sign of the individual having impaired self-awareness/regulation. I've come across this line of thinking because the more and more I've grown in paying attention to my cravings and how different foods affect me, I'm able to instantly cut off when I've had enough of a certain food, or recognize that it's going to cause more harm than good. Also paying attention to how food shifts my moods and energy levels also helps make correct decisions on what to eat based on my current physiological state. This has greatly improved digestion, as well as fatigue. Prior to my current state, I would force feed, ignoring physiological signals to obtain calories and finish my meal, which I believe to be a great error.

Just some musings, it's probably unfair to think unhealthy people have poor self-awareness. I did dabble for about a year in meditative practices, so perhaps that strengthened my self-awareness, and may be something every person should undertake. I no longer conventionally meditate, although I do consider my introspective analysis of where my current physiological state is and what foods (if any) are necessary to nourish myself a form of meditation.

 

[Motif]

I really think weak digestion (maybe from stress, depression etc) is the biggest issue and this feeds bacteria.

Or digestion in general is too weak for the way the average person eats.

 

[stevrd]

I found by accident that Coke was a miracle drug for me. It was that discovery that led me to the works of Ray Peat and eventually here. It works especially well for me just before bed. Full disclosure - I've made that suggestion to others and they have had trouble sleeping due to the caffeine. It works like a knockout drug for me and produces an anabolic response every time I do it. Lately, I've been getting just as good of a response, if not better from apples and brown sugar before bed as I noted above. Since they are less expensive than bottled Coke imported from Mexico, I've been relying on them more lately and using the Coke when the feeling hits me. I totally agree with your sugar + CO2 claim.

IS there any reason you prefer mexican cokes? I have found that I can drink the cheaper HFCS cokes and still have the same great response. Also, what about other sugar sodas before bed? I can drink coke before bed and it doesn't affect my sleep, but also root beer has a pretty good effect on me with no caffeine.

 

[danielbb]

IS there any reason you prefer mexican cokes? I have found that I can drink the cheaper HFCS cokes and still have the same great response. Also, what about other sugar sodas before bed? I can drink coke before bed and it doesn't affect my sleep, but also root beer has a pretty good effect on me with no caffeine.

Great questions. I am just being conservative with my aversion toward Coke bottled in Mexico. Never even heard of the stuff until I started lurking around here. HFCS works for me as well but I prefer sugar if I can get it. I love root beer and it works as well. Do you know of any that are made with sugar that can be purchased here in the US? Ginger Ale is another that I like.

 

[stevrd]

Agreed, and is probably why some people can eat whatever the hell they want and be healthy. By eating whatever the hell they want, what they are actually doing is listening to their body's cravings and eating highly digestible foods that don't upset them and energize and nourish, even if it's junk food.

I've been thinking lately that poor health may be a sign of the individual having impaired self-awareness/regulation. I've come across this line of thinking because the more and more I've grown in paying attention to my cravings and how different foods affect me, I'm able to instantly cut off when I've had enough of a certain food, or recognize that it's going to cause more harm than good. Also paying attention to how food shifts my moods and energy levels also helps make correct decisions on what to eat based on my current physiological state. This has greatly improved digestion, as well as fatigue. Prior to my current state, I would force feed, ignoring physiological signals to obtain calories and finish my meal, which I believe to be a great error.

Just some musings, it's probably unfair to think unhealthy people have poor self-awareness. I did dabble for about a year in meditative practices, so perhaps that strengthened my self-awareness, and may be something every person should undertake. I no longer conventionally meditate, although I do consider my introspective analysis of where my current physiological state is and what foods (if any) are necessary to nourish myself a form of meditation.

What a great comment. I couldn't agree more. I especially think that this is another reason fasting can be so damaging. I've had a lot of trouble in the past when if I didn't have my orthorexic foods with me, I would fast until dinner. This always made my mood worse than if I just grabbed whatever my co-workers were eating or get a bite from the cafeteria.

I think your comment describes me to a tee. Nearly every issue I've had with health has had to do with poor self-care and poor discipline. I think these go hand in hand. We have to be able to "give in" to our cravings, but we also have to be aware of when "giving in" is bad for us. I always crave staying up late and watching youtube videos but I know that in the morning it will be hell getting out of bed and it will ruin my whole day. We are all probably overstimulated, which is why as you said the need for meditation comes in. Believe it or not I find watching TV meditative. But it has to be a mindless show or movie, nothing too stimulating. After about an hour of watching mindless TV I feel very relaxed and oftentimes ready for bed. It's difficult to go to bed after working on the computer because it makes my mind race.

I sometimes wonder if the amount of hours per week worked correlates with illness. I'm pretty convinced that doing a job you hate is bad for your health, and it doesn't have to be anything high pressure either. I find that when I work in an environment that is not mentally stimulating, it makes me more anxious, not less. So very boring jobs seem to be just as bad, or worse than high pressure jobs.

 

[stevrd]

Great questions. I am just being conservative with my aversion toward Coke bottled in Mexico. Never even heard of the stuff until I started lurking around here. HFCS works for me as well but I prefer sugar if I can get it. I love root beer and it works as well. Do you know of any that are made with sugar that can be purchased here in the US? Ginger Ale is another that I like.

I'm not sure. I used to get a local brand called "smoky mountain" or something like that. I'm sure most conventional supermarkets have root beer made with sugar. I still am not convinced that HFCS is detrimental. Ray has already retracted his stance on it being fattening as the original UCLA study that showed it had 4x higher the calorie activity (once the oligosaccharides are broken down by digestion) has since been debunked. As it turns out, the researchers used the wrong acid to hydrolyze the HFCS in vitro, which is not a good model for HCL or normal human digestion. Furthermore, studies comparing sugar vs HFCS show no difference when compared isocalorically. If anything, I'm surprised ray doesn't promote HFCS since he is so pro-fructose.

 

[danielbb]

I really think weak digestion (maybe from stress, depression etc) is the biggest issue and this feeds bacteria.

Or digestion in general is too weak for the way the average person eats.

Interesting observation. I would argue, based on anecdotal evidence of one (myself) that weak digestion causes stress and depression and not the other way around. Of course, we could be talking semantics here.

I caught one of Ray's interviews where he linked a runny nose to an inflammatory reaction to what is going on in our digestive system and induced from our diet. I found that very interesting as I never would have made that connection as I always assumed that if your nose ran it was due to something like a cold, or cold weather, or pollen in the air, or what not. So... I started trouble-shooting my diet and started removing things and patiently tested my nasal conditions. When I removed starch, as in flour, about a week or so later my runny nose went away and it has never returned. Based on some member feedback here, I've since experimented with Italian flours (e.g., Pivetti) and they seem to be fine. I've found a US flour - King Arthur Brand All-Purpose - that is organic and only contains wheat and barley. It also seems to work ok. The inflammatory reaction I was getting may have been related to cheaper US flours that are enriched with iron and other perhaps low-grade B-vitamins. Whatever the case, there was a reaction to flour in my case. I don't eat a lot of flour anymore but sometimes have a taste for it nonetheless.

Here is the main reason I am posting this. After my runny nose left me, about a week or two or so after that, life-long depression left me. Even negative thoughts have left me. I am not suggesting I don't still have to deal with negative events, but I no longer react to them like I once did. My current working theory, based on anecdotal evidence of one, is that depression is an inflammatory reaction to something going on inside our bowels. I am not suggesting what worked for me will work for someone else but it is something to consider. I mentioned the depression issue to my Doctor and he suggested there were studies linking gluten to depression so to be honest, I am not sure exactly where the connection is. I know my depression has been cured. If this post helps one person out there, I am happy for that.

 

[Runenight201]

My current working theory, based on anecdotal evidence of one, is that depression is an inflammatory reaction to something going on inside our bowels. I am not suggesting what worked for me will work for someone else but it is something to consider. I mentioned the depression issue to my Doctor and he suggested there were studies linking gluten to depression so to be honest, I am not sure exactly where the connection is. I know my depression has been cured. If this post helps one person out there, I am happy for that.

I believe depression to be a result of either 2 things:

1) Serious life tragedy
2) Poor metabolic state/insufficient energy generation

Perhaps depression is not possible in those that have sufficient energy generation and a robust metabolic state, even if they encounter serious life tragedy.

I think an appropriate "cure" for depression would be a pro-metabolic diet in conjunction with positive psychological mindset therapy (take your pick of the lot) to permanently be instilled.

This way, even when the corpus experiences isolation, struggle, fatigue, inflammation, etc... the psychological resolve doesn't break down because its been properly developed, and the will to persevere remains strong.

 

[stevrd]

Depression can be looked at in many ways. I'm not depressed, but in my case if I were to define it in the context of my life and how I've observed others, it would be "frustration without resolve." Peat often talks of "learned helplessness," which I think is very similar. To elaborate, I've seen several people who work menial jobs even though they are extremely intelligent. Why do they continue to do this? I work closely with people at the bottom of the food chain in corporate america and many people continue to work at the bottom because they don't feel like they can get any better. They feel that they've been beaten down by the system and that they can't provide anything more valuable that what they're currently doing so they settle. Fear also plays a role here.

I've had the privilege of being able to overcome adversity and also have seen others do the same. What I notice in others is that when they are given an opportunity to do something more mentally stimulating, or are given more responsibility they tend to flourish. I would say by observing them, they seem healthier and have more energy after this. A good movie example is the pursuit of happiness with Will Smith. He became a different person entirely after somebody just gave him a chance and he started believing in himself.

To tie this all together and add to the conversation, I feel that a lot of people are sick psychologically and it's affecting their physiology. How you feel about yourself and your accomplishments (or lack thereof) seems to correlate with how you feel physically. There are countless animal studies to show this. Animals who are on the low end of heirarchies tend to be more withdrawn and depressed. One could call this a darwinesque scenario whereby creatures on low heirarchies have less chances to reproduce. Who knows. But there is something to be said about overcoming and climbing to higher echelons of life that is intrinsically built into all of us. It's that little voice in our head telling us that we want more. And this is OK as long as it's directed at things that fit within our values and is not unethical.

 

[Blossom]

I believe depression to be a result of either 2 things:

1) Serious life tragedy
2) Poor metabolic state/insufficient energy generation

Perhaps depression is not possible in those that have sufficient energy generation and a robust metabolic state, even if they encounter serious life tragedy.

I think an appropriate "cure" for depression would be a pro-metabolic diet in conjunction with positive psychological mindset therapy (take your pick of the lot) to permanently be instilled.

This way, even when the corpus experiences isolation, struggle, fatigue, inflammation, etc... the psychological resolve doesn't break down because its been properly developed, and the will to persevere remains strong.

Excellent points. Well said.

 

[Mauritio]

Ray is a very eccentric man. One who's advice or suggestions should be taken with a grain of salt. As the OP stated, his contrarian stance has opened up many minds. Perceive, think, act, is a mantra that we should all strive to follow. I will also forever be grateful for Peat's work. I think people run into trouble when they take what he says literally. For example, they'll see a quote by him and then follow that quote 100% to a tee. Most of these people have not read enough of his articles to see that he does contradict himself, especially over the course of time. His views have changed over the years, which is a good thing, as should every person's views should change. It signifies intelligence and growth.

My advice to anyone who wants to follow Peat's work is to first read as much of his work as you can. Think very carefully about some of the things he is writing, for if not taking time to sleep on it, you'll wind up taking quotes of his out of context doing ridiculously restrictive things. I would advise people to stick to reading primarily his articles and avoid other websites and bloggers who try to "dumb down" his work. It's noble to try to make things more easily understood for the layman, however in the case of Peat's work this often does more harm than good, because if you read a quote from him without reading the whole article, you can completely lose the message he is getting at.

Funny thing is ray said once that the more hypothyroid somone is the more eccentric he gets.... And he is probaly one of the lesser hypo ones

 

[InChristAlone]

Funny thing is ray said once that the more hypothyroid somone is the more eccentric he gets.... And he is probaly one of the lesser hypo ones

Do you have a quote for that? I've not heard him talk about that.

 

[somuch4food]

@stevrd I understand your point. That was also how I saw it before. I thought I had to will myself into the stuff I wanted to accomplish, but it always led me to crashing and having to give up.

I have found that it works the other way around too. Motivation can be born from a healthy energetic body supported by the right diet.

 

[stevrd]

@stevrd I understand your point. That was also how I saw it before. I thought I had to will myself into the stuff I wanted to accomplish, but it always led me to crashing and having to give up.

I have found that it works the other way around too. Motivation can be born from a healthy energetic body supported by the right diet.

Very true. It's funny, I find myself using strength training for analogies often, but here goes.... To relate to your point, people who over train actually end up plateauing or even regressing in strength. Why is this? It's because they are pushing their bodies at a faster rate than they are able to adapt to stress and supercompensate so they can come back stronger. Overtraining leads to a phenomenon whereby training motivation decreases, along with feelings of depression, and general malaise. Stress adaptation takes rest and good nutrition.

I think the same can be said for pretty much anything else. If we force things when our bodies are not ready to adapt, or if our body is telling us "no" and we do things anyway, we end up taking one step forward and two steps back. With most things, the wisest thing to do is go in easy, coax the body so that has the capacity to adapt to stress. Ray talks about the balance between excitation and inhibition a lot and I think this is very important and often overlooked. In modern society, there is way too much excitation, and not enough inhibition. We're overstimulated, overworked, undernourished, and underslept.