Why Everything We Know About Salt May Be Wrong

[PeatThemAll]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/08/health/salt-health-effects.html

" Another puzzle: The crew complained that they were always hungry on the high-salt diet. Dr. Titze assured them that they were getting exactly enough food to maintain their weights, and were eating the same amount on the lower-salt diets, when hunger did not seem to be problem.

But urine tests suggested another explanation. The crew members were increasing production of glucocorticoid hormones, which influence both metabolism and immune function.

To get further insight, Dr. Titze began a study of mice in the laboratory. Sure enough, the more salt he added to the animals’ diet, the less water they drank. And he saw why.

The animals were getting water — but not by drinking it. The increased levels of glucocorticoid hormones broke down fat and muscle in their own bodies. This freed up water for the body to use.
But that process requires energy, Dr. Titze also found, which is why the mice ate 25 percent more food on a high-salt diet. The hormones also may be a cause of the strange long-term fluctuations in urine volume.

Scientists knew that a starving body will burn its own fat and muscle for sustenance. But the realization that something similar happens on a salty diet has come as a revelation.

People do what camels do, noted Dr. Mark Zeidel, a nephrologist at Harvard Medical School who wrote an editorial accompanying Dr. Titze’s studies. A camel traveling through the desert that has no water to drink gets water instead by breaking down the fat in its hump.

One of the many implications of this finding is that salt may be involved in weight loss. Generally, scientists have assumed that a high-salt diet encourages a greater intake of fluids, which increases weight.

But if balancing a higher salt intake requires the body to break down tissue, it may also increase energy expenditure."

 

[tankasnowgod]

The final line in the article is baffling- Dr. Hoenig said, “I suspect that when it comes to the adverse effects of high sodium intake, we are right for all the wrong reasons.”

WAT?

I have recently been increasing my salt intake. Haven't really noticed any effects on weight, thirst, or appetite yet, but have noticed big improvements in sleep quality.

 

[Tarmander]

Looking at the study, kind of confusing. Gotta love sentences like this: " A 6-g/d increase in salt intake decreased the level of rhythmical mineralocorticoid release and elevated rhythmical glucocorticoid release."

some other stuff:

"Rhythmical release of stored body Na+ was independent of salt intake and occurred when the subjects’ aldosterone excretory levels were low and glucocorticoid levels were high" Also the vice versa was true with salt storage.

"Rhythmical elevation of urinary cortisone excretory levels[...]was linked with increases in urine volumes" More cortisol means you pee more.

"A 6-g/d increase in salt intake reduced UAldoV excretion" More salt, less aldosterone.

"In summary, our ultra-long-term balance studies suggest that humans maintain water balance by endogenous rhythmical accrual and excretion of body water." I am not sure how people get away with sentences like this. In summary, water balance is maintained by the body balancing water.

"A 6-g/d increase in salt intake reduces rhythmical aldosterone and enhances rhythmical glucocorticoid action, increases endogenous osmolyte-free water accrual, and ultimately results in the excretion of surplus salt osmolytes, together with endogenously accrued surplus water." = More salt lowers aldosterone and increases cortisol activity (?) which increases water retention which then eventually gets excreted with salt.

"Thus, salt-driven changes in energy metabolism may link high salt intake with diabetes mellitus (41–43), osteoporosis (44–48), and increased cardiovascular and neurovascular disease risk (49–54), even in the absence of any salt-sensitive blood pressure responses." I have no idea how they got to this, maybe someone could explain the linkage.

From my amateur understanding, they are saying that with increased salt intake, your body up-regulates cortisol to break down your tissues, generating water, to maintain water balance. So instead of getting thirsty, we get hungry because the cortisol is upping our metabolism and breaking down our fat stores. Which is interesting if their assumption was that water intake was the main tool of balancing water in the body.

I can actually see this kind of making sense. Matt Stone's Eat for Heat book was all about how you should restrict water intake to make sure your pee was yellow, not clear. This made you hotter. I think Matt Stone and his diet were pretty much a failure in that they did not get people back to that youthful metabolism that could burn through 4k calories a day no prob no prob. He was a success in other ways, so don't think I am completely knocking him, but his yellow pee thing was a dud in my book.

I did not actually see anywhere in the study where they said that cortisol was upped by salt. Like not in a satisfying way. Maybe someone more study savvy could take a crack at it.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Looking at the study, kind of confusing. Gotta love sentences like this: " A 6-g/d increase in salt intake decreased the level of rhythmical mineralocorticoid release and elevated rhythmical glucocorticoid release."

some other stuff:

"Rhythmical release of stored body Na+ was independent of salt intake and occurred when the subjects’ aldosterone excretory levels were low and glucocorticoid levels were high" Also the vice versa was true with salt storage.

"Rhythmical elevation of urinary cortisone excretory levels[...]was linked with increases in urine volumes" More cortisol means you pee more.

"A 6-g/d increase in salt intake reduced UAldoV excretion" More salt, less aldosterone.

"In summary, our ultra-long-term balance studies suggest that humans maintain water balance by endogenous rhythmical accrual and excretion of body water." I am not sure how people get away with sentences like this. In summary, water balance is maintained by the body balancing water.

"A 6-g/d increase in salt intake reduces rhythmical aldosterone and enhances rhythmical glucocorticoid action, increases endogenous osmolyte-free water accrual, and ultimately results in the excretion of surplus salt osmolytes, together with endogenously accrued surplus water." = More salt lowers aldosterone and increases cortisol activity (?) which increases water retention which then eventually gets excreted with salt.

"Thus, salt-driven changes in energy metabolism may link high salt intake with diabetes mellitus (41–43), osteoporosis (44–48), and increased cardiovascular and neurovascular disease risk (49–54), even in the absence of any salt-sensitive blood pressure responses." I have no idea how they got to this, maybe someone could explain the linkage.

From my amateur understanding, they are saying that with increased salt intake, your body up-regulates cortisol to break down your tissues, generating water, to maintain water balance. So instead of getting thirsty, we get hungry because the cortisol is upping our metabolism and breaking down our fat stores. Which is interesting if their assumption was that water intake was the main tool of balancing water in the body.

I can actually see this kind of making sense. Matt Stone's Eat for Heat book was all about how you should restrict water intake to make sure your pee was yellow, not clear. This made you hotter. I think Matt Stone and his diet were pretty much a failure in that they did not get people back to that youthful metabolism that could burn through 4k calories a day no prob no prob. He was a success in other ways, so don't think I am completely knocking him, but his yellow pee thing was a dud in my book.

I did not actually see anywhere in the study where they said that cortisol was upped by salt. Like not in a satisfying way. Maybe someone more study savvy could take a crack at it.

This is the same study Haidut posted here- More Dietary Salt Increases Urea Synthesis And Energy Requirements

The most frustrating thing about the study is that it seems to indicate that more salt both increases metabolism and should lower bodyweight, but they never mention either in this particular study. In the mouse study in the same NYT article in the thread, the mouse that ate the most salt did weigh the least.

 

[Tarmander]

This is the same study Haidut posted here- More Dietary Salt Increases Urea Synthesis And Energy Requirements

The most frustrating thing about the study is that it seems to indicate that more salt both increases metabolism and should lower bodyweight, but they never mention either in this particular study. In the mouse study in the same NYT article in the thread, the mouse that ate the most salt did weigh the least.

I thought I had read that study somewhere...

Yeah it is a bit frustrating. They throw out "obesity epidemic" to try and be relevant, but I am not sure they even address that properly.

 

[sladerunner69]

The final line in the article is baffling- Dr. Hoenig said, “I suspect that when it comes to the adverse effects of high sodium intake, we are right for all the wrong reasons.”

WAT?

I have recently been increasing my salt intake. Haven't really noticed any effects on weight, thirst, or appetite yet, but have noticed big improvements in sleep quality.

Lowerred adrenaline, I presume!!

 

[thyrulian]

Weird, you'd think the body would signal for thirst before increasing cortisol to provide water... like how I crave sugar during/immediately after consuming a decent amount of protein.

 

[Note]

Looking at the study, kind of confusing. Gotta love sentences like this: " A 6-g/d increase in salt intake decreased the level of rhythmical mineralocorticoid release and elevated rhythmical glucocorticoid release."

some other stuff:

"Rhythmical release of stored body Na+ was independent of salt intake and occurred when the subjects’ aldosterone excretory levels were low and glucocorticoid levels were high" Also the vice versa was true with salt storage.

"Rhythmical elevation of urinary cortisone excretory levels[...]was linked with increases in urine volumes" More cortisol means you pee more.

"A 6-g/d increase in salt intake reduced UAldoV excretion" More salt, less aldosterone.

"In summary, our ultra-long-term balance studies suggest that humans maintain water balance by endogenous rhythmical accrual and excretion of body water." I am not sure how people get away with sentences like this. In summary, water balance is maintained by the body balancing water.

"A 6-g/d increase in salt intake reduces rhythmical aldosterone and enhances rhythmical glucocorticoid action, increases endogenous osmolyte-free water accrual, and ultimately results in the excretion of surplus salt osmolytes, together with endogenously accrued surplus water." = More salt lowers aldosterone and increases cortisol activity (?) which increases water retention which then eventually gets excreted with salt.

"Thus, salt-driven changes in energy metabolism may link high salt intake with diabetes mellitus (41–43), osteoporosis (44–48), and increased cardiovascular and neurovascular disease risk (49–54), even in the absence of any salt-sensitive blood pressure responses." I have no idea how they got to this, maybe someone could explain the linkage.

From my amateur understanding, they are saying that with increased salt intake, your body up-regulates cortisol to break down your tissues, generating water, to maintain water balance. So instead of getting thirsty, we get hungry because the cortisol is upping our metabolism and breaking down our fat stores. Which is interesting if their assumption was that water intake was the main tool of balancing water in the body.

I can actually see this kind of making sense. Matt Stone's Eat for Heat book was all about how you should restrict water intake to make sure your pee was yellow, not clear. This made you hotter. I think Matt Stone and his diet were pretty much a failure in that they did not get people back to that youthful metabolism that could burn through 4k calories a day no prob no prob. He was a success in other ways, so don't think I am completely knocking him, but his yellow pee thing was a dud in my book.

I did not actually see anywhere in the study where they said that cortisol was upped by salt. Like not in a satisfying way. Maybe someone more study savvy could take a crack at it.

I've found lots success stories.

 

[Birdie]

[ moderator edit: threads merged ]

Dr. Gabe Mirkin's Fitness and Health e-Zine
May 14, 2017

How Excess Salt Affects You

Two excellent recent studies from Germany and Vanderbilt University in Tennessee tell us that us excess salt:
* causes hunger, rather than thirst
* breaks down muscle and fat
* may be a primary dietary factor in the high rates of obesity, diabetes, heart attacks and strokes in North America because it raises blood levels of adrenal hormones (cortisol)
(Journal of Clinical Investigation, April 17, 2017).

The common belief is that increasing salt intake increases urination and the more you urinate, the more fluid you have to drink to replace the fluid that you have lost. However, in 2011, these researchers studied Russian cosmonauts in a human space flight simulation program in Moscow, and were astonished to find that the cosmonauts actually drank less water when their daily salt intake was doubled (from 6 to 12 grams per day). Their follow-up studies, published last month, show that:
* The reason that extra salt decreases thirst and causes you to drink less fluid is that extra salt breaks down the muscles and fat in your body and these calories are used to supply energy for your body.
* Converting muscles and fat in your body to energy produces tremendous amounts of water because the end products of the chemical reactions that produce energy for your body are calories, water and carbon dioxide. The more body muscle and fat you break down, the more water is produced by your body and the less fluid you need to drink.
* When you take more salt than your body needs, your body responds to the loss of muscle and fat by needing extra calories to replace those that are lost, so extra salt makes you hungry and you eat more food.
The researchers propose that the extra food you eat because of excess salt can cause you to gain weight and increase risk for diabetes, heart attacks and strokes. The breakdown of muscle caused by excess salt may also increase risk for sports injuries.

Explanation of the Mechanism
The authors showed that extra salt stimulates your adrenal glands to increase your body's production of glucocorticoids (cortisol, cortisone, etc.) that break down muscle protein that your liver uses to make and release urea into the bloodstream. Urea helps to retain the water that you lose through your kidneys from taking in extra salt. The glutocorticoids can also raise blood sugar, make you hungry, weaken bones and form plaques in arteries. This research was meticulously designed, published in a very prestigious medical research journal and done by 21 authors. However, further studies are needed to confirm their findings and the amounts of salt that may be associated with increased risk for obesity, diabetes, heart attacks and so forth.

My Recommendations
While we await further data, I recommend that you continue to follow the heart-healthy diet that I have recommended for many years. This way of eating is relatively low in salt because you eat lots of plants and fresh foods that have not been altered by food manufacturers. See Who Should Restrict Salt and Heart-Healthy Diet: New Studies
* Base your diet on fresh fruits, vegetables, whole (un-ground) grains, beans, nuts and other seeds.
* Restrict processed foods that often have added salt (and sugar).
* Don't add a lot of salt to your food unless your doctor has advised you that you need extra salt. Some medications or medical conditions can cause excessive loss of salt. See Salt Intake Can Be Too High or Too Low
* Sometimes you need to take extra salt, such as when you exercise for more than three hours in hot weather, drink too much water especially during exercise, are dehydrated or have severe vomiting or diarrhea. Symptoms of salt deficiency include weakness, fatigue, headache, nausea and vomiting, muscle cramps or spasms, confusion and irritability. Check with your doctor, who can draw blood tests for sodium, chloride and potassium.

 

[Birdie]

Two recent studies are referenced.

My husband's classmate writes this blog. Standard anti-sugar, eat plants and nuts and grains for health.
I grow weary...

Wasn't sure where to post it so feel free to switch it to a more appropriate place.

 

[DawN]

Great post! I'd like to tune in with mentioning of Louis Kervran, seems kind of fresh frenchmen. Some pretty peaty thinking there, I'm sure you people will be very interested in his writings. Maybe someone out of France (@Parcival???) who could do a bit translation work?

 

[ken]

At first reading it seems the conclusions are tacked on to conform to the current medical myth.

 

[DawN]

@ken: Are you able to read? Or I may ask the other way: Where do you live that such cold-fusion-conform "medical myths" are teached?

 

[Birdie]

@ken: Are you able to read? Or I may ask the other way: Where do you live that such cold-fusion-conform "medical myths" are teached?

Not sure I get this. Haha. Not too many areas to live where the myths aren't taught.

 

[Birdie]

At first reading it seems the conclusions are tacked on to conform to the current medical myth.

I like that terminology, Current Medical Myth. CMM.

 

[StephanF]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/08/health/salt-health-effects.html
" Another puzzle: ...
."

Here is my understanding:

If you eat salty foods, the salt is ultimately taken up into the bloodstream. The body tries to keep homeostasis regarding the blood salt level, it pushes the salt into the tissue where it binds water. This I noticed every time I eat salty foods, there is a sudden weight gain that can be 1-2 kg, which I would loose in 1-2 days of lower salt intake and drinking lots of water. I noticed the lack of thirst and increased appetite, thanks to your post this now is clear to me.

Dr. T.C. McDaniel had a severe health crisis when he was in his 50s. He had Meniere's disease, was overweight, had severe arrhythmia, etc. From his book, 'Disease Reprieve:'

"
Twenty-five years ago, with a history of 6 PVe's per minute,
Meniere's Syndrome, 40 pounds overweight, an aversion to high
altitudes, and 45,000 micromhos of Total Dissolved Solids in my
plasma and urine, I had reached a disturbing curtailment of my
physical activities.

A respiration rate in excess of 45 beats per minute, Tachycar-
dia and Precordial pain ... all were symptoms obvious to 15 other
Physicians during the Annual Meeting of the Society of Endocri-
nology & Nutrition in Breckenridge, Colorado. All agreed on a
diagnosis: Anoxia, secondary to altitude at 12,000 feet. All agreed
I would be okay when I returned to Cincinnati's 400 ft. elevation.

A mirror reflected myself 55 pounds overweight, with hemor-
rhoids, premature baldness, motion sickness so acute as to dis-
courage flying and deep sea fishing, or even riding in a car as a
passenger. All symptoms were screaming for my attention; send-
ing a call for help.

My then state-of-ability as a physician was incomplete. My
physical and mental health was in serious medical compromise. "

He goes on that he went on an Odyssey in trying to find answers to his health problems which the medical profession, to which he belonged, had no answer for. Dr. McDaniel celebrates his 103rd birthday this May! He stumbled upon the scientific discoveries of Thomas M. Riddick about the Zeta Potential, which is an electric measure of how stable a colloidal suspension (e.g., blood) is.

Dr. McDaniel shows that natural food are high in potassium and low in sodium. Food processing, through adding salt, reverses this salt/potassium ratio. He promotes a low salt or 'natural' diet and drinking distilled or reverse osmosis filtered water. He sells the 'Zeta Aid', which I am using now for several years, to strengthen the blood's colloidal system. It prevents any heart disease, prevents plugs from forming in the heart vessels. My mild arrhythmia is gone as long as I take this supplement.
Dr. TC McDaniel Zeta Aid Welcome

Stephan

 

[Dessert_All_Day]

Am I the only one who still gets thirsty when I eat salty foods?

 

[Milena]

Context is everything. Thanks to this thread, a recent bout of oedema caused, most probably, by a disruption in slat concentration control hormones (?high aldosterone), l took three heaped tsp of Maldon sea salt over 2 hours in milk. The congestion that was affecting my breathing has subsided and the pitting oedema in my legs has reduced almost to nil. hands and feet are still swollen but feeling so much better.

 

[Wagner83]

I would not say increased hunger to compensate for breaking down tissues through cortisol means higher metabolism.

 

[Constatine]

Definitely should keep salt balanced. In light of this I don't think anyone here should be taking tablespoons of salt. Though a very low salt intake should be avoided as well. I would love to see what Ray thinks about this subject or rather this study.