Why does trt cause hairloss?

[tallglass13]

Estrogen is secondary in the whole story. It is protective against hair loss but the primary problem lies in the androgen cascade. Guys who have normal steroid metabolism in the follicle can run letrozole and roids like no man's business and their hair won't be affected. However for someone with MPB, losing their estrogen expression will add further insult to injury and make the whole thing progress even faster, because estrogen stimulates dermal papilla proliferation and upregulates a whole host of hair growth genes which are typically downregulated in the balding scalp.

A large factor in MPB is the epitestosterone (endogenous antiandrogen) being low in balding people and in their children (this seems to be genetic). So you have too much androgenic activity in the hair follicle, and this ratio gets worse with age. That defeats the "teenagers would lose their hair because they have the highest androgens" argument - they also have the highest antiandrogens as well.

Your testosterone & DHT also go down with age, but less. That contributes to the gut, manboobs and fat.

I think what is helpful here is to understand that the hair follicle has its own steroid metabolism, and that this is not necessarily reflective of what happens in the rest of the body.

Pretty decent . I actually would not argue this. Good Job. How do we get Epi up? And I definitely agree that low testosterone is implicated in balding, and even DHT> I have been taking 1-3mg DHT and feel very good.

 

[tallglass13]

So , we need to keep questioning Ray on this, because he did say something like, "estrogens activate the Adrenals to make more of the Androgens". Which means, it IS the Androgens that ultimately over virilize the tissues and balding. So high estrogen may start the problem, but Androgens finish the job.

 

[Jack Earth]

Estrogen is secondary in the whole story. It is protective against hair loss but the primary problem lies in the androgen cascade. Guys who have normal steroid metabolism in the follicle can run letrozole and roids like no man's business and their hair won't be affected. However for someone with MPB, losing their estrogen expression will add further insult to injury and make the whole thing progress even faster, because estrogen stimulates dermal papilla proliferation and upregulates a whole host of hair growth genes which are typically downregulated in the balding scalp.

A large factor in MPB is the epitestosterone (endogenous antiandrogen) being low in balding people and in their children (this seems to be genetic). So you have too much androgenic activity in the hair follicle, and this ratio gets worse with age. That defeats the "teenagers would lose their hair because they have the highest androgens" argument - they also have the highest antiandrogens as well.

Your testosterone & DHT also go down with age, but less. That contributes to the gut, manboobs and fat.

I think what is helpful here is to understand that the hair follicle has its own steroid metabolism, and that this is not necessarily reflective of what happens in the rest of the body.

That would explain the genetic factor that a lot of people here dont validate. Is there a way to raise your epitestosterone?

 

[MyUsernameHere]

That would explain the genetic factor that a lot of people here dont validate. Is there a way to raise your epitestosterone?

I don't know tbh, that's a million dollar question. There is some evidence suggesting 7-keto DHEA can do it, but I'm not sure if that's a good approach, esp. long term.

 

[Dr. B]

Let's drop the "estrogen causes hair loss" angle. It's not supported by anything observed in the real world.

it has to be both estrogen and cortisol, since testosterone should lower cortisol, yet causes hair loss, likely due to its turning to estrogen.

TRT is dangerous, very dangerous, if you take the normal prescribed dosages. Imagine all that extra spill over from using 250 mg., A young male makes 4- 7 mgs, so just imagine the outrageous amounts usually prescribed. I work with many doctors, and NONE of them know how much a male makes naturally daily. I do not know about Estrogens, but Ray Peat seems to know. And apparently to much Estrogens, Estrone , Estradiol, can be pretty toxic, and Estrogens lower thyroid. Which would then lower the persons total Energy production. Lowered energy production then causes Cholesterol to go more towards Cortisol, instead of Progesterone. Ray Peats words mostly.

im curious if lowered energy production causes cholesterol to go to cortisol, wouldnt it do the same with pregnenolone?

 

[Dr. B]

I don't know tbh, that's a million dollar question. There is some evidence suggesting 7-keto DHEA can do it, but I'm not sure if that's a good approach, esp. long term.

i got some serious hair shedding and even weight gain from pregnenolone.
months later, 7 keto dhea caused similar symptoms, but not as severe as pregnenolone.

 

[iso1]

I don't know tbh, that's a million dollar question. There is some evidence suggesting 7-keto DHEA can do it, but I'm not sure if that's a good approach, esp. long term.

Also this

It is hypothesized that the T/EpiT ratio is increased by COX-2 inhibitors and opiod analgesics, and decreased by antimycotics that do not impair testosterone biosynthesis. Given the devastating personal and career consequences that may result from false positive drug tests, substantive research on the effects of PGE2 manipulations on EpiT is warranted.

Sex, drugs and sports: Prostaglandins, epitestosterone and sexual development

Amateau and McCarthy’s findings published in Nature Neuroscience (June 2004) are noteworthy for suggesting a role for prostaglandins in sexual develop…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[BetterCallSaul]

TRT -> More T available to convert to E and ultimately higher amounts of DHT (hair loss)

Blocking one pathway of conversion will increase the other:

AIs -> less aromatisation, more 5AR activity

Finasteride -> less 5AR activity, more aromatisation

I will let you guess which scenario results in better hair

 

[Dr. B]

Also this

Sex, drugs and sports: Prostaglandins, epitestosterone and sexual development

Amateau and McCarthy’s findings published in Nature Neuroscience (June 2004) are noteworthy for suggesting a role for prostaglandins in sexual develop…

www.sciencedirect.com

how does the 7 keto dhea improve hair loss? ive heard its an anti cortisol, non hormonal substance with no estrogenic/androgenic activity like regular dhea, but also heard it can convert to cortisol. i used it for around a month at 100mg a day, and it seemed to improve energy levels, but did also cause scalp tingling and some hair thinning, as well as some weight gain. the effects weren't as severe as from pregnenolone or other things

 

[golder]

how does the 7 keto dhea improve hair loss? ive heard its an anti cortisol, non hormonal substance with no estrogenic/androgenic activity like regular dhea, but also heard it can convert to cortisol. i used it for around a month at 100mg a day, and it seemed to improve energy levels, but did also cause scalp tingling and some hair thinning, as well as some weight gain. the effects weren't as severe as from pregnenolone or other things

Severe pregnenolone reaction? What happens when you take it?

 

[Dr. B]

Severe pregnenolone reaction? What happens when you take it?

i used pure encapsulations brand pregnenolone (no fillers, much pricier than other brands) and put on 12 pounds in 10 days of using it... also got massive hair loss from it and my eyes dried up, got some puffier breasts too. going off symptoms seemed like it was turning purely to cortisol or estrogen somehow.

 

[golder]

i used pure encapsulations brand pregnenolone (no fillers, much pricier than other brands) and put on 12 pounds in 10 days of using it... also got massive hair loss from it and my eyes dried up, got some puffier breasts too. going off symptoms seemed like it was turning purely to cortisol or estrogen somehow.

Sounds more like a dodgy source than it does the compound?
Pest used to take 3000mg back in the day and never got anything like these reactions. In fact, one of the main reasons he doesn’t use it anymore is because he doesn’t trust the sources anymore. Did you think about trying a different vendor?

 

[Dr. B]

Sounds more like a dodgy source than it does the compound?
Pest used to take 3000mg back in the day and never got anything like these reactions. In fact, one of the main reasons he doesn’t use it anymore is because he doesn’t trust the sources anymore. Did you think about trying a different vendor?

ive tried others, like life extension
Ray said every source he tried since the 80s iirc had effects that shouldnt be pregnenolone so he no longer uses or recommends it
but it makes sense logically, the pregnenolone, could convert to cortisol/estrogen if under stress?
there's been other online reviews of people using the same brands pregnenolone and getting good effects. i think it could be the current state of the metabolism

 

[BestSinceDAYONE]

TRT is dangerous, very dangerous, if you take the normal prescribed dosages. Imagine all that extra spill over from using 250 mg., A young male makes 4- 7 mgs, so just imagine the outrageous amounts usually prescribed. I work with many doctors, and NONE of them know how much a male makes naturally daily. I do not know about Estrogens, but Ray Peat seems to know. And apparently to much Estrogens, Estrone , Estradiol, can be pretty toxic, and Estrogens lower thyroid. Which would then lower the persons total Energy production. Lowered energy production then causes Cholesterol to go more towards Cortisol, instead of Progesterone. Ray Peats words mostly.

Is that how he feels about TRT? I thought he was very pro androgen

 

[BestSinceDAYONE]

how does the 7 keto dhea improve hair loss? ive heard its an anti cortisol, non hormonal substance with no estrogenic/androgenic activity like regular dhea, but also heard it can convert to cortisol. i used it for around a month at 100mg a day, and it seemed to improve energy levels, but did also cause scalp tingling and some hair thinning, as well as some weight gain. the effects weren't as severe as from pregnenolone or other things

it doesnt do ***t

 

[Dr. B]

Is that how he feels about TRT? I thought he was very pro androgen

i think Ray said both androgens and estrogens shrink the thymus

 

[TheBeard]

Do what you need to do to make you feel better without overthinking the consequences.
Androgens make you feel better?
Take them.
The risk is small.

 

[golder]

Do what you need to do to make you feel better without overthinking the consequences.
Androgens make you feel better?
Take them.
The risk is small.

Where that line in fact is and risk mitigation separates the smart use of these things.

 

[tallglass13]

Is that how he feels about TRT? I thought he was very pro androgen

Yes, but only at about 1-3 mg. It seems Ray its safe and less chance of aromatizaiton at that amount. He stated a young male only makes 7 mgs at most naturally.

 

[Dr. B]

Yes, but only at about 1-3 mg. It seems Ray its safe and less chance of aromatizaiton at that amount. He stated a young male only makes 7 mgs at most naturally.

is that dht or testosterone at 1-3mg?