Why does trt cause hairloss?

Jack Earth

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On several BB forums members are posting hair horror stories after trt and how topical and oral anti androgens were the only way to stop or reverse it.
How would the members here explain that?
And how can you prevent hairless from trt without using anti androgens?
 

tallglass13

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For one, most everyone that uses TRT uses huuuugggge amounts of product. People are literally using 250 mg /wk, per shot, even though the male body only make 4mg daily. Even using 20mg in one dose would be to much. Ray told me that the liver will shut down production if it senses to much of testosterone. In which, aromatase will increase and all that test will spill over to Estrogens. Using a Anti-androgen will reduce estrogen, by lowering aromatase, since an Anti-androgen will lower androgens, thus lowering the amount of spill over to estrogen.
 
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Jack Earth

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For one, most everyone that uses TRT uses huuuugggge amounts of product. People are literally using 250 mg /wk, per shot, even though the male body only make 4mg daily. Even using 20mg in one dose would be to much. Ray told me that the liver will shut down production if it senses to much of testosterone. In which, aromatase will increase and all that test will spill over to Estrogens. Using a Anti-androgen will reduce estrogen, by lowering aromatase, since an Anti-androgen will lower androgens, thus lowering the amount of spill over to estrogen.

Makes sense. That's probably why guys on deca dont lose hair it crushes your estrogen
 
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Let's drop the "estrogen causes hair loss" angle. It's not supported by anything observed in the real world.
 

BrianF

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Let's not. My body is part of the real world and my scalp responds badly to higher estrogen and much better to lower estrogen.
 
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Let's not. My body is part of the real world and my scalp responds badly to higher estrogen and much better to lower estrogen.

Nice to meet you, Mr. n=1, or should I call you Biological Anomaly?

Little did all the balding men know, all they had to do was take some Exemestane or Letrozole to get rid of the evil estrogen, and their baldness would stop. Silly bald men.
 

BrianF

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Nice to meet you too. And admittedly its not as simple as A = good and B = Bad, estrogen is a major player in mpb for most people.

Its actually Mr Norwod Between 2 and 3.

Mr N1 - jeezo, do I wish that was true!
 
T

TheBeard

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Nice to meet you, Mr. n=1, or should I call you Biological Anomaly?

Little did all the balding men know, all they had to do was take some Exemestane or Letrozole to get rid of the evil estrogen, and their baldness would stop. Silly bald men.

Exemestane made me shed hair like it was my job.
 
T

TheBeard

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On several BB forums members are posting hair horror stories after trt and how topical and oral anti androgens were the only way to stop or reverse it.
How would the members here explain that?
And how can you prevent hairless from trt without using anti androgens?

Where's that blank statement coming from?
Oh yes, from forums, you already said it.

So I'm going to answer anecdotal evidence by another anecdotal evidence: I've been using high doses testosterone for the past 2 years, and my hair look fuller than ever.
Jeff Seid and Mike O'Hearn are other anecdotal evidence that steroids don't necessarily shed your hair.

The only time I ever shedded hair was when I tried Exemestane.

You want my guess? Those forum bbers are losing hair because of the massive amounts of PUFA and toxins they are injecting along with the testosterone.
They don't understand the only way to go about TRT is through scrotal application of a cream.
 

rr1

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Nice to meet you, Mr. n=1, or should I call you Biological Anomaly?

Little did all the balding men know, all they had to do was take some Exemestane or Letrozole to get rid of the evil estrogen, and their baldness would stop. Silly bald men.
I also strongly believe that estrogen is a major cause of hair loss, and again, its from personal experience. And do you really think that Exemestane or Letrozole block only estrogen?
Your statement also implies that estrogen is the only cause of hair loss, which we know isn't true. So, of course it isn't as simple as only taking Exemestane or Letrozole. I try to appreciate your input, but please don't try so hard to derail the thread.
 
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And do you really think that Exemestane or Letrozole block only estrogen?

What else do they block? Let's take Exemestane for simplicity's sake. It is an androgen-analogue and aromatase inhibitor.

I try to appreciate your input, but please don't try so hard to derail the thread.

OP is asking through what mechanism TRT causes hair loss. Someone argues that it is through an increase in estrogen - I'm here to argue the opposite. I believe we're still on topic.

My experience is that all substances that antagonize or reduce estrogen some way (Vitamin E, K2, D, androsterone, progesterone, and many others) increase hair loss and speed up male pattern baldness, and in fact that seems to be the majority experience on most hair loss forums.

If you believe that estrogen is a major cause of hair loss (for everyone, I presume?) then we should be able to greatly stop or reduce the progression of our baldness with anti-estrogenic substances, I have yet to see someone succeed with that.
 

Hans

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My experience is that all substances that antagonize or reduce estrogen some way (Vitamin E, K2, D, androsterone, progesterone, and many others) increase hair loss and speed up male pattern baldness, and in fact that seems to
That is too broad a statement. Many vitamins and minerals are aromatase inhibitors and doesn't cause hair loss. Extremely few people get hair loss from the sun unless they are already inflamed and the UV makes it worse.
Serotonin, PTH, cortisol, inflammation, etc all increase aromatase and also promote hair loss.
 

PaRa

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Makes sense. That's probably why guys on deca dont lose hair it crushes your estrogen
more so bc it lowers prolactin
deca solo, it's a progestin and nukes prolactin but it raises estrogen efficiency
deca + test = estrogen sensivity + estrogen and prolactin from T = deca ****

natural : estrogen is very needed, as long as you keep T in a good ratio with it and keep prolactin low
ideally you have highish T, medium E, low prolactin and highish SHBG (what would be the result of a high thyroid)
 
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tallglass13

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Let's drop the "estrogen causes hair loss" angle. It's not supported by anything observed in the real world.
So you don't think old guys, fat, bald, etc. don't have high estrogen?
I work with plenty of women that are losing hair and are very thin. You don't think they have a lot of estrogen, that is not opposed by enough Progesterone?
Women lose so much hair after birth of a baby, due to Estrogen and Prolactin rises high to make milk.
Special Androgens that easily go to Estrone, like Androstendione, are implicated strongly in balding.

I don't think Estrogen by itself causes balding, that would be silly. Ray talks about mostly, but even Cortisol is linked to high estrone.
 
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That is too broad a statement. Many vitamins and minerals are aromatase inhibitors and doesn't cause hair loss. Extremely few people get hair loss from the sun unless they are already inflamed and the UV makes it worse.
Serotonin, PTH, cortisol, inflammation, etc all increase aromatase and also promote hair loss.

Well, it's a broad statement because it's a broad observation. I don't know what else is in common to all those compounds other than they all downregulate aromatase.
 

DhtAssassin

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Nice to meet you too. And admittedly its not as simple as A = good and B = Bad, estrogen is a major player in mpb for most people.

Its actually Mr Norwod Between 2 and 3.

Mr N1 - jeezo, do I wish that was true!


Yeah, that's why people jumping on estrogen regrows ton of hair quite often and people who take AI lose hair.
 
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So you don't think old guys, fat, bald, etc. don't have high estrogen?
I work with plenty of women that are losing hair and are very thin. You don't think they have a lot of estrogen, that is not opposed by enough Progesterone?
Women lose so much hair after birth of a baby, due to Estrogen and Prolactin rises high to make milk.
Special Androgens that easily go to Estrone, like Androstendione, are implicated strongly in balding.

I don't think Estrogen by itself causes balding, that would be silly. Ray talks about mostly, but even Cortisol is linked to high estrone.

Estrogen is secondary in the whole story. It is protective against hair loss but the primary problem lies in the androgen cascade. Guys who have normal steroid metabolism in the follicle can run letrozole and roids like no man's business and their hair won't be affected. However for someone with MPB, losing their estrogen expression will add further insult to injury and make the whole thing progress even faster, because estrogen stimulates dermal papilla proliferation and upregulates a whole host of hair growth genes which are typically downregulated in the balding scalp.

A large factor in MPB is the epitestosterone (endogenous antiandrogen) being low in balding people and in their children (this seems to be genetic). So you have too much androgenic activity in the hair follicle, and this ratio gets worse with age. That defeats the "teenagers would lose their hair because they have the highest androgens" argument - they also have the highest antiandrogens as well.

Your testosterone & DHT also go down with age, but less. That contributes to the gut, manboobs and fat.

I think what is helpful here is to understand that the hair follicle has its own steroid metabolism, and that this is not necessarily reflective of what happens in the rest of the body.
 

tallglass13

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What else do they block? Let's take Exemestane for simplicity's sake. It is an androgen-analogue and aromatase inhibitor.



OP is asking through what mechanism TRT causes hair loss. Someone argues that it is through an increase in estrogen - I'm here to argue the opposite. I believe we're still on topic.

My experience is that all substances that antagonize or reduce estrogen some way (Vitamin E, K2, D, androsterone, progesterone, and many others) increase hair loss and speed up male pattern baldness, and in fact that seems to be the majority experience on most hair loss forums.

If you believe that estrogen is a major cause of hair loss (for everyone, I presume?) then we should be able to greatly stop or reduce the progression of our baldness with anti-estrogenic substances, I have yet to see someone succeed with that.
TRT is dangerous, very dangerous, if you take the normal prescribed dosages. Imagine all that extra spill over from using 250 mg., A young male makes 4- 7 mgs, so just imagine the outrageous amounts usually prescribed. I work with many doctors, and NONE of them know how much a male makes naturally daily. I do not know about Estrogens, but Ray Peat seems to know. And apparently to much Estrogens, Estrone , Estradiol, can be pretty toxic, and Estrogens lower thyroid. Which would then lower the persons total Energy production. Lowered energy production then causes Cholesterol to go more towards Cortisol, instead of Progesterone. Ray Peats words mostly.
 

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