Why Does Sleep Leave Me Feeling Exhausted?

Seeweed65

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The brain must use massive amounts of energy when in REM sleep, my dreams are that clear and detailed its uncanny. Even if I try to picture something in that much detail wile awake I couldn’t, my eye for detail whilst dreaming is so clear. I believe the problem with laying in is that the later it gets the stage 4 wave of deep sleep is reduced to stage 3,2,1 giving you no time to recover after using so much brain power and staying in this state for to long will make you feel even more tired when you finally decide to wake up. A bit like if somebody wakes you quickly whilst youre dreaming you will have a heavy head all day, or maybe thats just me.

I can also take on the world by the end of the day and have many good ideas that to fall apart by the time I wake up.
 

Prosper

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Not all meditation is about being part of the cosmic flow and all that. This particular type of meditation is actually about accepting who you are right now, no matter what the circumstances. Most of our wasted energy is in the form of wanting things to be different, but of course we don't actually even recognize that because we cloak it in the disguise of "problems." Does that mean you should just always sit there and not do anything? Not necessarily, but maybe it does. Who knows? Your mind is constantly berating you for not living up to what "should" be which compounds the issue. Can't hurt to try, can it?
I appreciate and acknowledge the insight in your sentiment, it is just not relevant to me.
 

Constatine

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I know blue light is kind of shunned here, but I've had great success with a "daylight therapy lamp" (10000 lux, 6500 k) for 15 min every morning while I eat breakfast.
It really brings down melatonin after waking up and resets your circadian rhythm. I have a lot more energy during the day and actually wake up in the morning feeling refreshed and not like I just got hit by a truck.

Here's a thread on the old forum: Bright light therapy vs. Red Light - Ray Peat Q&A
This is a good idea, you should get plenty of blue light during the day hours. Maybe even sun gaze a bit (responsibly of course).

Regarding your iron levels vitamin A and lactoferrin can raise your levels in a healthy way (by increasing iron transport and not allowing bacteria to use your iron stores and grow).

What is your diet like?
 

fradon

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My problem is a little unusual in that I CAN sleep relatively OK when a room is dark, quiet and comfortable, BUT I wake up feeling absolutely dreadful. This has been going on for decades now, and I am left feeling desperate since the chronic fatigue that gets worse year on year is affecting everything from quality of life, to job prospects, to general relationships with others. I found this wonderful forum due to Ray's brilliant articles on ferritin and iron (my ferritin is usually low, though haemoglobin normal, and the doctor's usual 'cure' in giving out iron pills like sweets has not helped at all). After years of trying everything, I am certain now that the fatigue has something to do with sleep quality and cycles.

I am really desperate to find out what on earth is happening when I sleep, to create the morning fatigue that I am experiencing. Everyone I know wakes up feeling refreshed (given that they've had a good night's sleep) yet in my case, it seems sleep is making me so tired. I've already had tests for sleep apnea and restless leg syndrome, both of which were negative. I cannot remember the last time I woke up feeling refreshed and I'm so tired of having to lie in bed until mid-morning just trying to find the energy to move when it feels as though the rest of the world is turning without me :-(

when you sleep your body usually switches over from sugar burning to fat burning by the use of cortisol and the use of ketones.

now what could be happening to you is that your body is either not producing enough cortisol to keep your blood sugar high enough so you wake up feeling like crap because you essentially have low blood sugar. or your body just can't break the stored fuel down...and that can be related to adrenal weakness...

normally in the morning people have a lot of energy because of cortisol and adreanaline but if you lack those then you will feel like ***t...or feel like hung over.
 

Prosper

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normally in the morning people have a lot of energy because of cortisol and adreanaline but if you lack those then you will feel like ***t...or feel like hung over.
If I wake up hungover I'm full of energy :D I feel unwell, but also productive.
 

haidut

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Acute sleep deprivation increases dopamine and lowers serotonin. Peat has mentioned slight sleep deprivation as being helpful in depression although I forgot exactly where I saw it.

Sleep deprivation also raises adenosine, and it is that mechanism which is thought to be the main antidepressant effect. Google for "adenosine depression sleep deprivation".
 
J

jb116

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Sleep deprivation also raises adenosine, and it is that mechanism which is thought to be the main antidepressant effect. Google for "adenosine depression sleep deprivation".
Right, so then I would think caffeine would be the better way to raise adenosine than sleep deprivation. Wouldn't you say?
 

haidut

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Right, so then I would think caffeine would be the better way to raise adenosine than sleep deprivation. Wouldn't you say?

Maybe. Caffeine is actually an adenosine antagonist and should produce effects as if your adenosine was low. But since antagonists usually raise the receptor density and also increase the levels of the ligand they antagonize, caffeine may raise adenosine levels and when you stop it then you'd have the effects of multiday sleep deprivation :): The adenosine would then quickly drop as the receptor density and sensitivity has been increased by caffeine but for a few days you'd have very pronounced adenosergic effects. Maybe this is why in clinical trials caffeine actually protects from depression instead of producing it. But in the short run, caffeine seems to drop mood and then elevate it in the long run. The change in adenosine receptor sensitivity is probably why this difference of short-term vs. long-term effects occurs.
 
J

jb116

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Maybe. Caffeine is actually an adenosine antagonist and should produce effects as if your adenosine was low. But since antagonists usually raise the receptor density and also increase the levels of the ligand they antagonize, caffeine may raise adenosine levels and when you stop it then you'd have the effects of multiday sleep deprivation :): The adenosine would then quickly drop as the receptor density and sensitivity has been increased by caffeine but for a few days you'd have very pronounced adenosergic effects. Maybe this is why in clinical trials caffeine actually protects from depression instead of producing it. But in the short run, caffeine seems to drop mood and then elevate it in the long run. The change in adenosine receptor sensitivity is probably why this difference of short-term vs. long-term effects occurs.
Great explanation. My personal experience mirrors that regarding the initial responses. Caffeine is an amazing thing for me now.
Ok so when adenosine combines with mono phosphate and caffeine can increase cAMP, is that a different mechanism than its relationship to strictly adenosine?
 

haidut

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Great explanation. My personal experience mirrors that regarding the initial responses. Caffeine is an amazing thing for me now.
Ok so when adenosine combines with mono phosphate and caffeine can increase cAMP, is that a different mechanism than its relationship to strictly adenosine?

I think the rise in cAMP is from PDE inhbition (which most xanthines are known to do) since PDE degrades cAMP into AMP.
 

Prosper

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But in the short run, caffeine seems to drop mood and then elevate it in the long run.
What would it signify when the opposite happens? For me caffeine is euphoric after a long break, but dissociating and lethargy-inducing after 2-3 weeks of use. I become more depressed the longer I use it. Eating more does not seem to help. Gbolduev talked about this happening to one oxidizer type and your situation to the other type. Is there any validity to this from your perspective?
 

haidut

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What would it signify when the opposite happens? For me caffeine is euphoric after a long break, but dissociating and lethargy-inducing after 2-3 weeks of use. I become more depressed the longer I use it. Eating more does not seem to help. Gbolduev talked about this happening to one oxidizer type and your situation to the other type. Is there any validity to this from your perspective?

Well, as I mentioned in the previous post, if your adenosine levels and receptor density increase while you take caffeine then when you stop it the effects would be a LOT of adenosine activity which has antidepressant effects. So, it could go either way depending on status of adenosine system and receptors before starting caffeine.
 
OP
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DemiDee

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The brain must use massive amounts of energy when in REM sleep, my dreams are that clear and detailed its uncanny. Even if I try to picture something in that much detail while awake I couldn’t, my eye for detail whilst dreaming is so clear. I believe the problem with laying in is that the later it gets the stage 4 wave of deep sleep is reduced to stage 3,2,1 giving you no time to recover after using so much brain power and staying in this state for to long will make you feel even more tired when you finally decide to wake up.

Seeweed65, I dream a LOT and, like you, most are very vivid dreams. They are also often related to searching for somewhere, losing something of importance, or something else relating to anxiety. I'm convinced the chronic fatigue in spite of sleeping - because of sleeping - is related to dreams and sleep cycles, though in my case, it's certainly not due to having a lie-in. I go to bed around 11-12pm and wake at 7am or before. Can't sleep later than that. Can't move for about an hour either due to the exhaustion that sleep has induced. Like you, I think that sleep cycles may be the problem and I'm literally desperate for answers since the fatigue has lessened my quality of life for so long.

Michael94, on sleep deprivation - I think you are right in that less sleep can sometimes equate to less lethargy. Like Prosper, I'm so alive in the evenings and by the time I wake up, it's all futile due to the chronic fatigue. If I have a restless night of little sleep, I feel so much better, which shows that it IS something that is happening - or not - while sleeping. The probelem (for me) with sleep deprivation is that if I have a night or two of going to bed after midnight, it induces a migraine in the following couple of days. So, I can't live with the sleep, or without it!

Fradon, I'm not sure about my cortisol and/or adrenalin levels. I will see if I can get those checked out. Thank you.

Prosper, I've never heard of Torpor but will certainly do some research now. Thank you.

After a decade or more of pleading with my doctor, I'm finally booked in for an overnight sleep study in mid-January. I'll come back here and let you all know the findings given that you guys have all been more than helpful in your unexpected - amazing - responses.
 

kaybb

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Seeweed65, I dream a LOT and, like you, most are very vivid dreams. They are also often related to searching for somewhere, losing something of importance, or something else relating to anxiety. I'm convinced the chronic fatigue in spite of sleeping - because of sleeping - is related to dreams and sleep cycles, though in my case, it's certainly not due to having a lie-in. I go to bed around 11-12pm and wake at 7am or before. Can't sleep later than that. Can't move for about an hour either due to the exhaustion that sleep has induced. Like you, I think that sleep cycles may be the problem and I'm literally desperate for answers since the fatigue has lessened my quality of life for so long.

Michael94, on sleep deprivation - I think you are right in that less sleep can sometimes equate to less lethargy. Like Prosper, I'm so alive in the evenings and by the time I wake up, it's all futile due to the chronic fatigue. If I have a restless night of little sleep, I feel so much better, which shows that it IS something that is happening - or not - while sleeping. The probelem (for me) with sleep deprivation is that if I have a night or two of going to bed after midnight, it induces a migraine in the following couple of days. So, I can't live with the sleep, or without it!

Fradon, I'm not sure about my cortisol and/or adrenalin levels. I will see if I can get those checked out. Thank you.

Prosper, I've never heard of Torpor but will certainly do some research now. Thank you.

After a decade or more of pleading with my doctor, I'm finally booked in for an overnight sleep study in mid-January. I'll come back here and let you all know the findings given that you guys have all been more than helpful in your unexpected - amazing - responses.
Please do report back. I am very interested. I have awful mornings also. I treat migraines and sometimes fibromyalgia pain with caffeine ...and mornings are even worse if I have a lot of caffine. To help w/the side effects, I cont. to take inosine, taurine and mag. on suggestion by Haidut. Lately, I am taking one drop of methelaine blue at night. I stopped for a week while fighting flu, & painful stomach. Now back on it. Before I quit I felt better than I have in a long time. Not only in the morning but it would last throughout the day. I'm wondering how methelaine blue plays into the adenosine, if anything .
 

kaybb

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Sleep deprivation also raises adenosine, and it is that mechanism which is thought to be the main antidepressant effect. Google for "adenosine depression sleep deprivation".
I have started methylene blue, 1 drop at night and morning fatigue, depression, pain is better. Does MB have anything to do the adenosine function?
 

haidut

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I have started methylene blue, 1 drop at night and morning fatigue, depression, pain is better. Does MB have anything to do the adenosine function?

Not that I know of. Its antidepressant effects are postulated to be due to increased brain metabolism.
 
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It sounds bad, bad enough to warrant a sleep study.

It sounds like you might have sleep apnea. Every morning, you might be waking up from hours of slight hypoxia, and during the day because you're breathing normally, you feel a lot better as the day goes on.

A sleep study will easily tell you whether this is the case or not. They will measure your blood oxygenation.

For treatment of sleep apnea, I've heard surgery is a hit or miss. I've also heard that the machines that force breathing are annoying and sometimes don't work.

You might want to look into keeping your mouth closed with tape or some headgear, a simple elastic cord covered in cloth could easily keep your jaw closed during the night, but won't cause nearly the amount of stress that taping your mouth closed might. You could do this and see if you feel better, no sleep study required. Mouthbreathing during sleep is necessary for sleep apnea as far as I know.

Do you wake up with a dry mouth in the morning? That is pretty indicative imo of sleep apnea.
 

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