Why Does Sleep Leave Me Feeling Exhausted?

[DemiDee]

My problem is a little unusual in that I CAN sleep relatively OK when a room is dark, quiet and comfortable, BUT I wake up feeling absolutely dreadful. This has been going on for decades now, and I am left feeling desperate since the chronic fatigue that gets worse year on year is affecting everything from quality of life, to job prospects, to general relationships with others. I found this wonderful forum due to Ray's brilliant articles on ferritin and iron (my ferritin is usually low, though haemoglobin normal, and the doctor's usual 'cure' in giving out iron pills like sweets has not helped at all). After years of trying everything, I am certain now that the fatigue has something to do with sleep quality and cycles.

I am really desperate to find out what on earth is happening when I sleep, to create the morning fatigue that I am experiencing. Everyone I know wakes up feeling refreshed (given that they've had a good night's sleep) yet in my case, it seems sleep is making me so tired. I've already had tests for sleep apnea and restless leg syndrome, both of which were negative. I cannot remember the last time I woke up feeling refreshed and I'm so tired of having to lie in bed until mid-morning just trying to find the energy to move when it feels as though the rest of the world is turning without me :-(

 

[lampofred]

I would wake up feeling like hell when I had symptoms of high estrogen. Progest-E has allowed me to sleep very deeply. I used to feel bad after even 10 hours of sleep but after using progesterone, I'm well rested after only 5 hours daily.

 

[cyclops]

I would wake up feeling like hell when I had symptoms of high estrogen. Progest-E has allowed me to sleep very deeply. I used to feel bad after even 10 hours of sleep but after using progesterone, I'm well rested after only 5 hours daily.

How much are you taking to achieve such beautifully efficient sleep?

 

[lampofred]

How much are you taking to achieve such beautifully efficient sleep?

I'm a guy so I probably shouldn't be using this much but I've always had severe estrogen dominance symptoms throughout my life and I haven't experienced any anti-androgenic symptoms as of yet. I use 15 drops a day which I think is 45 mg. I'm also practicing breath retention (Buteyko) and my CP shot up from 20 where it was stuck at for weeks to 30-35 after using progesterone, so I don't know if the result is directly due to progesterone or due to the fact I am better able to retain CO2 due to progesterone.

 

[DemiDee]

Thank you, Lampofred. I guess I should get my estrogen levels checked out then? Although I fear that after so many tests over the years, that may have already been checked. Will go back through my records. I know they definitely checked - a multitude of times - for thyroid issues, to no avail.

 

[theLaw]

@DemiDee

Here's a test you can try:

Drink a small glass of warm milk w/3Tbsp of sugar before bed.

Now if you wake up, then you have to go microwave another small glass of milk w/sugar.

After you do this a few times, then your glycogen will not run out overnight, and you'll sleep much better.

If you have some digestive issue with milk, try having a carrot with each glass.

Ray Peat claims to have helped those with sleep issues using even crackers as a carb source when they woke up frequently.

The key to this is to understand that you might not actually feel hungry, but need to eat anyway.

One final note: if you're still waking up, then try adding aspirin (1G) before bed to block the release of pufa, but make sure to take some vitamin k with it as needed (search the forum for more info).

Cheers!

 

[squanch]

I know blue light is kind of shunned here, but I've had great success with a "daylight therapy lamp" (10000 lux, 6500 k) for 15 min every morning while I eat breakfast.
It really brings down melatonin after waking up and resets your circadian rhythm. I have a lot more energy during the day and actually wake up in the morning feeling refreshed and not like I just got hit by a truck.

Here's a thread on the old forum: Bright light therapy vs. Red Light - Ray Peat Q&A

 

[lampofred]

Thank you, Lampofred. I guess I should get my estrogen levels checked out then? Although I fear that after so many tests over the years, that may have already been checked. Will go back through my records. I know they definitely checked - a multitude of times - for thyroid issues, to no avail.

Peat says estrogen blood tests often aren't accurate because in many cases estrogen accumulated in tissues even though blood levels are low. He also says that progesterone is probably the only hormone with no negative side effects so it could be something to just try without getting a blood test to see if you're actually low in it or not.

 

[Seeweed65]

@DemiDee Do you dream much? All i know is that when i dream to much i will wake up exhausted with brain fog all day, to much REM sleep. The only thing that helps me is to get out of bed early to reduce the amount of time i can be in that state.

 

[cyclops]

@DemiDee Do you dream much? All i know is that when i dream to much i will wake up exhausted with brain fog all day, to much REM sleep. The only thing that helps me is to get out of bed early to reduce the amount of time i can be in that state.

Same for me; more dreams, less rested.

 

[michael94]

I remember someone posted a few days ago ( here I think ) that sleep deprivation helped their chronic fatigue/depression. Just this morning I had to get up and run errands on very little sleep and I am in a great mood now. Come to think of its always been like that, since I was a child...

Before anyone screams stress hormones, I think theres more to it than that. Actually I know there is.

 

[lampofred]

I remember someone posted a few days ago ( here I think ) that sleep deprivation helped their chronic fatigue/depression. Just this morning I had to get up and run errands on very little sleep and I am in a great mood now. Come to think of its always been like that, since I was a child...

Before anyone screams stress hormones, I think theres more to it than that. Actually I know there is.

Acute sleep deprivation increases dopamine and lowers serotonin. Peat has mentioned slight sleep deprivation as being helpful in depression although I forgot exactly where I saw it.

 

[Prosper]

I remember someone posted a few days ago ( here I think ) that sleep deprivation helped their chronic fatigue/depression. Just this morning I had to get up and run errands on very little sleep and I am in a great mood now. Come to think of its always been like that, since I was a child...

Before anyone screams stress hormones, I think theres more to it than that. Actually I know there is.

Same. Every time I stay up the whole night and finally go to bed the next evening, I make all kinds of plans about what I would like to do in the following day. I may decide to start writing a book, plan to go see a friend I haven't seen in a while, start conceptualizing an idea for an album, feel motivated to pursue better health and so on. All these things excite me at that moment. I can barely wait for the next day to come. Then I wake up in the morning with all enthusiasm gone. If every day was like the last 15 minutes before going to sleep, I would be unstoppable. Living could even feel worthwhile.

What more is there to it than hormones in your opinion?

 

[alywest]

Look into torpor; it's basically like hibernation and it's not very restful. It's basically like your body shuts down as opposed to actually actively sleeping which is truly restful. I used to sleep 12-13 hours at a time and was still always exhausted. Hormones are part of it, but look into what Peat says about it.

 

[raypeatclips]

Same. Every time I stay up the whole night and finally go to bed the next evening, I make all kinds of plans about what I would like to do in the following day. I may decide to start writing a book, plan to go see a friend I haven't seen in a while, start conceptualizing an idea for an album, feel motivated to pursue better health and so on. All these things excite me at that moment. I can barely wait for the next day to come. Then I wake up in the morning with all enthusiasm gone. If every day was like the last 15 minutes before going to sleep, I would be unstoppable. Living could even feel worthwhile.

What more is there to it than hormones in your opinion?

I am identical to this. Any ideas why? Have you considered asking Ray his opinion?

 

[Prosper]

I am identical to this. Any ideas why? Have you considered asking Ray his opinion?

I would of course be interested in his general perspective on the matter, but in spite of his insightfulness I doubt he could be of much help. This seems like a very fundamental and complex issue that can't be solved over the net. I would like to eventually get extensive lab testing for thyroid, hormones, mineral balance, gut flora etc to get a better impression of the unique system within which I exist, but that is not cheap.

 

[alywest]

I would of course be interested in his general perspective on the matter, but in spite of his insightfulness I doubt he could be of much help. This seems like a very fundamental and complex issue that can't be solved over the net. I would like to eventually get extensive lab testing for thyroid, hormones, mineral balance, gut flora etc to get a better impression of the unique system within which I exist, but that is not cheap.

Then, don't beat yourself up for not being motivated to do anything. On a day when you have nothing to do tell yourself "I'm going to do nothing today." And just be ok with that. Just sit there if need be. If you're not hungry, don't eat. Try some mindfulness meditation with John Kabat Zinn where they help you just be in the moment without feeling the need to do or be anything else.

 

[Vanced]

I would suggest get a comprehensive blood test including thyroid, assess the results then go from there.

 

[Prosper]

Then, don't beat yourself up for not being motivated to do anything. On a day when you have nothing to do tell yourself "I'm going to do nothing today." And just be ok with that. Just sit there if need be. If you're not hungry, don't eat. Try some mindfulness meditation with John Kabat Zinn where they help you just be in the moment without feeling the need to do or be anything else.

Well of course, individual existence is futile and I should surrender myself to the cosmic flow. Nothing is as easy as being.

I am not beating myself up. Life is as it is. Yet, I feel compelled to guide it towards a more sustainable direction. The infinite present moment is enamoring when you are well, but a mere distraction when you are not.

 

[alywest]

Well of course, individual existence is futile and I should surrender myself to the cosmic flow. Nothing is as easy as being.

I am not beating myself up. Life is as it is. Yet, I feel compelled to guide it towards a more sustainable direction. The infinite present moment is enamoring when you are well, but a mere distraction when you are not.

Not all meditation is about being part of the cosmic flow and all that. This particular type of meditation is actually about accepting who you are right now, no matter what the circumstances. Most of our wasted energy is in the form of wanting things to be different, but of course we don't actually even recognize that because we cloak it in the disguise of "problems." Does that mean you should just always sit there and not do anything? Not necessarily, but maybe it does. Who knows? Your mind is constantly berating you for not living up to what "should" be which compounds the issue. Can't hurt to try, can it?