Why does Prozac work?

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I have friends and family members that have been taking Prozac and Lexapro for years for their depression. They are happy and are pursuing their passions. They have great relationships and lots of energy. If serotonin is such a bad thing wouldn't they be depressed and suicidal?
 
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I think the guy from Penny Arcade takes the latter one, apparently he gets "electric shocks" in his brain when he tries to quit.
 

tara

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I think there is some question about whether all the so-called SSRIs really do increase serotonin, and if so, whether this is their main mechanism of action?
 

you

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The mechanisms of SSRIs effects are not fully understood. You can't attribute their happiness entirely to the drugs they take and there are many documented negative effects of SSRI usage.
 
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answersfound

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Such_Saturation said:
I think the guy from Penny Arcade takes the latter one, apparently he gets "electric shocks" in his brain when he tries to quit.

Who is the guy from Penny Arcarde? I'm not sure what you are referring to.
 

squanch

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Can't find the source now, but one theory is that SSRIs only increase serotonin in the first two weeks of taking them. After that the receptors and brainchemistry adapt and you actually end up with less serotonin.
This would explain the infamous spike in suicides during the first couple weeks of starting SSRIs.
But who knows, they do a whole bunch of things in your body.

Using a proper micro dose regimen of LSD, psilocybin, mescalin or other indole psychedelics would have the same (if not better) antidepressing effect without a lot of SSRIs side effects.
One of the more famous researchers on the subject recommended a micro dose every third day with two days off in between.
There is some literature on the subject from studies they did in the 60s.
 
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lookingforanswers said:
Such_Saturation said:
I think the guy from Penny Arcade takes the latter one, apparently he gets "electric shocks" in his brain when he tries to quit.

Who is the guy from Penny Arcarde? I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Just a comic strip maker.
 

haidut

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lookingforanswers said:
I have friends and family members that have been taking Prozac and Lexapro for years for their depression. They are happy and are pursuing their passions. They have great relationships and lots of energy. If serotonin is such a bad thing wouldn't they be depressed and suicidal?

The drug fluoxetine (Prozac) is actually partially anti-serotonergic. Once again, Peat is right when he says that the pharma industry probably misunderstands how these drugs work (when they do). Prozac is an antagonist at the serotonin "receptor" 5-HT2C. Virtually all drugs that are antagonists on that "receptor" will have anti-depressant properties. Here is the study on Prozac.

Blockage of 5HT2C serotonin receptors by fluoxetine (Prozac) - PubMed

Here is some info on the 5-HT2C "receptor":

So, there you go. Your family is happy b/c they are taking a drug that has partially anti-serotonin properties where it matters. That does not make it a good drug though. Prozac is still highly serotonergic at other "receptors" and in the long run probably carcinogenic. I posted a study on the forum showing all SSRI drugs are also estrogenic and as such increase breast cancer risk many-fold. Once again, entirely in line with Peat's view of serotonin, estrogen, and prolactin stimulating each other and being nasty metabolic poisons.
 
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EnoreeG

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answersfound said:
I have friends and family members that have been taking Prozac and Lexapro for years for their depression. They are happy and are pursuing their passions. They have great relationships and lots of energy. If serotonin is such a bad thing wouldn't they be depressed and suicidal?

answersfound, you have a lucky family if they are in this situation of apparent success with Prozac and Lexapro. In addition to the good advice provided by haidut, I want to add some material I uncovered while reading Nutrient Power by William Walsh. Since I'm paraphrasing from a book, I'll make it brief but you may find more on line at his website or other sites.

Walsh is a brain biochemistry researcher with a vast database on patients he and others have treated for depression as well as other disorders including autism and Alzheimers. Most of these diseases manifest due to imbalances in either nutrients or toxins. Depression shows up as a result of varying conditions. Sometimes due to overmethylation, sometimes undermethylation, sometimes due to copper toxicity, and there are a few other causes.

Not that I'm recommending anti-depressants, but it happens they they can spell success for depression sufferers in cases that suffer from undermethylation (38% of all depressives). These are people who test with a whole-blood histamine level over 70 ng/ml, low SAMe and who tend to have seasonal allergies and a history of perfectionism. Check the internet for other markers, and holistic treatments.

However, other "depression" sufferers can have drastic, even fatal results from taking SSRI antidepressants. This is especially true for overmethylated individuals! These are people with "folate deficiency" (20% of the database), who happen to be non-competitive individuals who are really, intrinsically high-serotonin (go to a website to find more characteristics, more treatments besides SSRI, etc.). SSRI medication is not recommended for this type, per Dr. Walsh, and a prescription may prove far more damaging than helpful.

And then there are people suffering from copper poisoning (17%). These people just need to be rid of the copper which can be done with supplements of zinc, manganese, glutathione, etc. They are not going to respond to SSRI, as the major problem is copper. Excess copper will show in both blood and hair tests.

There's another 15% of depressive cases that just suffer from low zinc and B6, and have high oxidative stress, and need to be supplemented with the zinc and B6 plus selenium, glutathione and other anti-oxidants. SSRI is not a fix here either.

The other cases of depression are caused by overload of various other toxins.

So actually, SSRI drugs are only applicable in 1/3 of the cases, but may get prescribed for almost any depression symptoms by many doctors. In the case of 20% of depressives, taking an anti-depressant my prove dangerous to the patient and others.

To press this further, here's a compendium of notes on nutritional treatment of mental disorders:

Walsh Notes

Be aware that the condition of a person's gut is also strongly related to nervous system health. It's worth studying for anyone, in my estimation, not just those who have a recognized nerve/brain problem.

[mod=Moderator]This post contains alternatives to Ray Peat's views. For a full explanation click here.[/mod]
 

Stuart

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haidut said:
lookingforanswers said:
I have friends and family members that have been taking Prozac and Lexapro for years for their depression. They are happy and are pursuing their passions. They have great relationships and lots of energy. If serotonin is such a bad thing wouldn't they be depressed and suicidal?

The drug fluoxetine (Prozac) is actually partially anti-serotonergic. Once again, Peat is right when he says that the pharma industry probably misunderstands how these drugs work (when they do). Prozac is an antagonist at the serotonin "receptor" 5-HT2C. Virtually all drugs that are antagonists on that "receptor" will have anti-depressant properties. Here is the study on Prozac.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9050900

Here is some info on the 5-HT2C "receptor":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HT2C_receptor

So, there you go. Your family is happy b/c they are taking a drug that has partially anti-serotonin properties where it matters. That does not make it a good drug though. Prozac is still highly serotonergic at other "receptors" and in the long run probably carcinogenic. I posted a study on the forum showing all SSRI drugs are also estrogenic and as such increase breast cancer risk many-fold. Once again, entirely in line with Peat's view of serotonin, estrogen, and prolactin stimulating each other and being nasty metabolic poisons.
I can see that serotonin 'excess' or dysbiosis of any of the hormones you mention- estrogen,prolactin etc, is undesirable. but presumably there is some 'sweet spot' for all of them, at which level they are not metabolic poisons, but essential?
 

Stuart

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Skally said:
Using a proper micro dose regimen of LSD, psilocybin, mescalin or other indole psychedelics would have the same (if not better) antidepressing effect without a lot of SSRIs side effects.
One of the more famous researchers on the subject recommended a micro dose every third day with two days off in between.
There is some literature on the subject from studies they did in the 60s.
That's really interesting. Thanks Skally
In a similar vein, I was reading recently that low dose (and long term) naltrexone is a very effective anti infammatory with powerful anti autoimmune disease activity.
 
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answersfound

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EnoreeG said:
answersfound said:
I have friends and family members that have been taking Prozac and Lexapro for years for their depression. They are happy and are pursuing their passions. They have great relationships and lots of energy. If serotonin is such a bad thing wouldn't they be depressed and suicidal?

answersfound, you have a lucky family if they are in this situation of apparent success with Prozac and Lexapro. In addition to the good advice provided by haidut, I want to add some material I uncovered while reading Nutrient Power by William Walsh. Since I'm paraphrasing from a book, I'll make it brief but you may find more on line at his website or other sites.

Walsh is a brain biochemistry researcher with a vast database on patients he and others have treated for depression as well as other disorders including autism and Alzheimers. Most of these diseases manifest due to imbalances in either nutrients or toxins. Depression shows up as a result of varying conditions. Sometimes due to overmethylation, sometimes undermethylation, sometimes due to copper toxicity, and there are a few other causes.

Not that I'm recommending anti-depressants, but it happens they they can spell success for depression sufferers in cases that suffer from undermethylation (38% of all depressives). These are people who test with a whole-blood histamine level over 70 ng/ml, low SAMe and who tend to have seasonal allergies and a history of perfectionism. Check the internet for other markers, and holistic treatments.

However, other "depression" sufferers can have drastic, even fatal results from taking SSRI antidepressants. This is especially true for overmethylated individuals! These are people with "folate deficiency" (20% of the database), who happen to be non-competitive individuals who are really, intrinsically high-serotonin (go to a website to find more characteristics, more treatments besides SSRI, etc.). SSRI medication is not recommended for this type, per Dr. Walsh, and a prescription may prove far more damaging than helpful.

And then there are people suffering from copper poisoning (17%). These people just need to be rid of the copper which can be done with supplements of zinc, manganese, glutathione, etc. They are not going to respond to SSRI, as the major problem is copper. Excess copper will show in both blood and hair tests.

There's another 15% of depressive cases that just suffer from low zinc and B6, and have high oxidative stress, and need to be supplemented with the zinc and B6 plus selenium, glutathione and other anti-oxidants. SSRI is not a fix here either.

The other cases of depression are caused by overload of various other toxins.

So actually, SSRI drugs are only applicable in 1/3 of the cases, but may get prescribed for almost any depression symptoms by many doctors. In the case of 20% of depressives, taking an anti-depressant my prove dangerous to the patient and others.

To press this further, here's a compendium of notes on nutritional treatment of mental disorders:

Walsh Notes

Be aware that the condition of a person's gut is also strongly related to nervous system health. It's worth studying for anyone, in my estimation, not just those who have a recognized nerve/brain problem.

Great thank you so much.
 

4peatssake

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EnoreeG said:
answersfound said:
I have friends and family members that have been taking Prozac and Lexapro for years for their depression. They are happy and are pursuing their passions. They have great relationships and lots of energy. If serotonin is such a bad thing wouldn't they be depressed and suicidal?

answersfound, you have a lucky family if they are in this situation of apparent success with Prozac and Lexapro. In addition to the good advice provided by haidut, I want to add some material I uncovered while reading Nutrient Power by William Walsh. Since I'm paraphrasing from a book, I'll make it brief but you may find more on line at his website or other sites.

Walsh is a brain biochemistry researcher with a vast database on patients he and others have treated for depression as well as other disorders including autism and Alzheimers. Most of these diseases manifest due to imbalances in either nutrients or toxins. Depression shows up as a result of varying conditions. Sometimes due to overmethylation, sometimes undermethylation, sometimes due to copper toxicity, and there are a few other causes.

Not that I'm recommending anti-depressants, but it happens they they can spell success for depression sufferers in cases that suffer from undermethylation (38% of all depressives). These are people who test with a whole-blood histamine level over 70 ng/ml, low SAMe and who tend to have seasonal allergies and a history of perfectionism. Check the internet for other markers, and holistic treatments.

However, other "depression" sufferers can have drastic, even fatal results from taking SSRI antidepressants. This is especially true for overmethylated individuals! These are people with "folate deficiency" (20% of the database), who happen to be non-competitive individuals who are really, intrinsically high-serotonin (go to a website to find more characteristics, more treatments besides SSRI, etc.). SSRI medication is not recommended for this type, per Dr. Walsh, and a prescription may prove far more damaging than helpful.

And then there are people suffering from copper poisoning (17%). These people just need to be rid of the copper which can be done with supplements of zinc, manganese, glutathione, etc. They are not going to respond to SSRI, as the major problem is copper. Excess copper will show in both blood and hair tests.

There's another 15% of depressive cases that just suffer from low zinc and B6, and have high oxidative stress, and need to be supplemented with the zinc and B6 plus selenium, glutathione and other anti-oxidants. SSRI is not a fix here either.

The other cases of depression are caused by overload of various other toxins.

So actually, SSRI drugs are only applicable in 1/3 of the cases, but may get prescribed for almost any depression symptoms by many doctors. In the case of 20% of depressives, taking an anti-depressant my prove dangerous to the patient and others.

To press this further, here's a compendium of notes on nutritional treatment of mental disorders:

Walsh Notes

Be aware that the condition of a person's gut is also strongly related to nervous system health. It's worth studying for anyone, in my estimation, not just those who have a recognized nerve/brain problem.

[mod=Moderator]This post contains alternatives to Ray Peat's views. For a full explanation click here.[/mod]
 

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