Why Does Cascara Sagrada & Magnesium Irritate My Butthole?

[Derek]

post 112143

post 112117 Ray told me that he actually gets a headache from magnesium oil and that he thinks there are impurities, lol.

When I use more than 15 sprays of magnesium oil (that's 270mg of elemental magnesium according to the serving info on the bottle), the blood rushes to my head and it's pulsing, why is that? Is it the magnesium or the chloride? I drink milk (500ml) and that problem disappears.. I just use fewer sprays now.

Could of been a calcium:magnesium imbalance, which is why milk helped. Mg:Ca should be 1:1. Could of been an impurity issue like what Ray eluded to. If you consume lots of salt could of also been excess chloride.

 

[milk_lover]

post 112165

post 112162

post 112161 Magnesium supplements on an empty stomach orally all irritate my GI tract. There's bloating and a little pain. This is especially true with oral magnesium chloride. I would guess it's the chloride, because sodium chloride on its own is also very irritating to the stomach and intestine, but with food there is no problem.

Does this also apply to transdermal application of magnesium chloride?

Not, not at all in my experience. If a lot absorbs I get sleepy and sometimes need to take a nap. I usually wake up feeling very relaxed afterwards. I notice that in order for magnesium chloride to absorb I need to be sweating, so it would seem that magnesium enters through the pores.

If a lot is absorbed in my case, I get pulsing in my head. But if I put enough without reaching the head pulsing threshold, I get almost similar effect as you. Sometimes I feel also burning in my stomach from too much. So I eat something to shut that down. Maybe HCL is released in my stomach because of the chloride from the oil.

 

[tara]

post 112098 He says it is safe as long as it doesn't contain impurities and contaminants. So what does that really mean? How can you tell if it has contaminants and manufacturing impurities, other than by how you react to it. He has told me he really doesn't recommend any magnesium supplements because they are very irritating/allergenic. He recommends coffee, chocolate, leafy greens/broth, etc.. Maybe someone else who has heard him say this will chime in.

This is interesting. How about posting this exchange where we can see it, instead of just referring to your private correspondence that the rest of us have no access to? By all means leave out any identifying detail from your questions etc, or any personal stuff you don't think Peat would be happy to have public.
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1035

 

[tara]

post 112022 When I try to make my stool softer and have a BM once a day using magnesium citrate

Whatever Peat's and others' concerns about the purity of supplements, I don't think he's all that keen on citrate.

 

[Derek]

post 112146

post 112117 If your bowel movements were good while eating fruit, vegetables and meat, why the change? Was that diet causing some other issue?

I had very little energy, was always cold and had joint pain and mentally I was a lot more stressed. It seems that the digestion was the only thing that was amazing about it. Then I read about ray peat and I tried it and I feel better on it, even if my digestion sucks it still feels better. And ray says to eat meat only once a day and to avoid vegetables and most fruits so that's what I do.

I was eating potatoes and rice for a while and that wasn't great, I always smelled like undigested milk.

So now I eat no starches. Just milk, OJ, sugar, some beef twice a day, carrots, cocoa powder, coffee, liver. I was eating gelatin and cheese for a while but it seems to make my constipation worse. I'd love to eat more solid & varied food but I don't know what to eat other than that. Maybe real fruits would help? I haven't tried that in a while.

Why not combine the two diets so you'll be having: Milk, OJ, sugar, meat, cocoa/coffee, starch or fruits and vegetables?

It's not surprising you are constipated eating only milk, oj, sugar, beef, carrots, cocoa/coffee and liver. Try to eat either starch or fruit/vegetables; whichever you feel that is best tolerated. It doesn't have to be a "one size fits all" diet, or some extreme limited diet. Try to make a combination of the foods that you tolerate best. All of these foods are peat approved, even the starch; if that matters to you.

 

[Derek]

post 112168

post 112076 RP cautioned that commercial oral magnesium supplement can cause Hemorrhoids.
He recommends epsom salt bath and natural magnesium from leafy green vegetable broth.
I use vegetable fruit broth for magnesium and potassium.

I'm also a big fan of leaf broths combined with fruit juice. Definitely my favorite food magnesium source. It seems to be absorbed extremely well. It puts me right to sleep.

Thank you for posting this about mag supplements and getting it through food. Felt crazy that I was the only one saying this.

 

[Derek]

post 112173

post 112098 He says it is safe as long as it doesn't contain impurities and contaminants. So what does that really mean? How can you tell if it has contaminants and manufacturing impurities, other than by how you react to it. He has told me he really doesn't recommend any magnesium supplements because they are very irritating/allergenic. He recommends coffee, chocolate, leafy greens/broth, etc.. Maybe someone else who has heard him say this will chime in.

This is interesting. How about posting this exchange where we can see it, instead of just referring to your private correspondence that the rest of us have no access to? By all means leave out any identifying detail from your questions etc, or any personal stuff you don't think Peat would be happy to have public.
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... =68&t=1035

I'm a private guy. Don't really want to post long discussions I have had with Ray on this forum. Brian posted what Ray told Mittir about magnesium supplements, that should be sufficient enough for this topic.

 

[tara]

post 112146 And ray says to eat meat only once a day and to avoid vegetables and most fruits so that's what I do.

I have not seen him say this as a general rule - did he say it to you personally? I've read from him that there can be problem with getting a large part of our calories from greens, ad that cooking them well is helpful. He's mentioned the value minerals - eg calcium and magnesium - in leaves. I eat a bit of well cooked greens most days, and miss them if I skip for a couple of days.

 

[tara]

post 112179 I'm a private guy. Don't really want to post long discussions I have had with Ray on this forum. Brian posted what Ray told Mittir about magnesium supplements, that should be sufficient enough for this topic.

What about if you don't want to post full exchanges (fair enough), at least quote him verbatim for the key content in the relevant discussions where you are referring to them? Not much point telling us repeatedly that we are all wrong and ignorant about what Peat thinks based on information you alone have access to. I'm sure many of us would love to have extended email discussions with him, but he is a busy man.

 

[Derek]

post 112203

post 112179 I'm a private guy. Don't really want to post long discussions I have had with Ray on this forum. Brian posted what Ray told Mittir about magnesium supplements, that should be sufficient enough for this topic.

What about if you don't want to post full exchanges (fair enough), at least quote him verbatim for the key content in the relevant discussions where you are referring to them? Not much point telling us repeatedly that we are all wrong and ignorant about what Peat thinks based on information you alone have access to. I'm sure many of us would love to have extended email discussions with him, but he is a busy man.

Most times I am not quoting Peat or even speaking from his perspective; I am giving my personal opinion based on my own experiences/research. I guess I'll make that clear as you keep scolding me on that.

Have I told people they are wrong or ignorant? Actually, you have repeatedly said to me that I am wrong and Peat would never say "this" or "that" whenever I make posts. You tell me I need to read his articles again because I don't understand Peat's views. I have never said that to anybody.

And again, I was only giving the OP some advice about diet and supplements, nothing that controversial; but then everyone wants to argue over the semantics and fine details. The point is to help people.

 

[Giraffe]

post 112169 Could of been a calcium:magnesium imbalance, which is why milk helped. Mg:Ca should be 1:1.

Is this a typo?

 

[Derek]

post 112223

post 112169 Could of been a calcium:magnesium imbalance, which is why milk helped. Mg:Ca should be 1:1.

Is this a typo?

I think the ratio of Calcium:Magnesium should be 1:1, or 2:1 at the very least.

 

[Brian]

post 112227

post 112223

post 112169 Could of been a calcium:magnesium imbalance, which is why milk helped. Mg:Ca should be 1:1.

Is this a typo?

I think the ratio of Calcium:Magnesium should be 1:1, or 2:1 at the very least.

Intake? or in serum? I don't think intake ratio matters much if one's soft tissue is relatively free from calcium and PTH is low. But if someone is not able to lower PTH through the usual means I absolutely agree that calcium intake should be low. The priority is to get calcium out of soft tissue and cells. If it is high that will never happen as long as PTH and calcium intake are high, while magnesium intake/absorption is low and average serum K2 is low.

 

[Derek]

post 112246

post 112227

post 112223

post 112169 Could of been a calcium:magnesium imbalance, which is why milk helped. Mg:Ca should be 1:1.

Is this a typo?

I think the ratio of Calcium:Magnesium should be 1:1, or 2:1 at the very least.

Intake? or in serum? I don't think intake ratio matters much if one's soft tissue is relatively free from calcium and PTH is low. But if someone is not able to lower PTH through the usual means I absolutely agree that calcium intake should be low. The priority is to get calcium out of soft tissue and cells. If it is high that will never happen as long as PTH and calcium intake are high, while magnesium intake/absorption is low and average serum K2 is low.

I'm speaking primarily about intake. True about the ratio not mattering if one's soft tissues are free of calcium and PTH is low, but that isn't the majority of people. I agree you want calcium out of soft tissues and especially out of the cells. Sodium/Potassium is needed in the cells not calcium.

 

[Brian]

I'm speaking primarily about intake. True about the ratio not mattering if one's soft tissues are free of calcium and PTH is low, but that isn't the majority of people. I agree you want calcium out of soft tissues and especially out of the cells. Sodium/Potassium is needed in the cells not calcium.

I agree. In theory you should be able to lower PTH through fat soluble vitamins and high calcium intake, but in practice that doesn't seem to be the case for a lot of people for various reasons. Many of these people would probably find more success by dropping calcium low to 600mg or so for at least 6 months while focusing on transdermal magnesium and either taking K2 mk7, transdermal mk4, or somehow increasing their gut bacteria K2 production. This is the general protocol being used by Dr. Garret Smith with excellent results.

I went off dairy for 6 months a couple of years ago and substituted beef instead for protein. In retrospect this probably was a major step in decalcifying my soft tissue and cells. I may have been able to get similar results through Peat's often recommended approach of high calcium+fat solubles, but I can personally say I know that this alternative approach does work.

 

[cout12]

post 112180 I have not seen him say this as a general rule - did he say it to you personally? I've read from him that there can be problem with getting a large part of our calories from greens, ad that cooking them well is helpful. He's mentioned the value minerals - eg calcium and magnesium - in leaves. I eat a bit of well cooked greens most days, and miss them if I skip for a couple of days.

No he didn't say it personally to me but I thought I read that green vegetables are bad for thyroid and have pufas in them. I used to eat a lot of spinach, cooked broccoli, cauliflower, brussels sprouts. How much of those can I eat a day safely? Like 1 cup? half a cup? And I think I might be able to digest potatoes and rice well on their own (never tried for long periods). But it seems that mixed with milk it really messes me up. Maybe green vegetables won't interact with milk because they're not starchy?

 

[tara]

post 112270 No he didn't say it personally to me but I thought I read that green vegetables are bad for thyroid and have pufas in them. I used to eat a lot of spinach, cooked broccoli, cauliflower, brussels sprouts. How much of those can I eat a day safely? Like 1 cup? half a cup? And I think I might be able to digest potatoes and rice well on their own (never tried for long periods). But it seems that mixed with milk it really messes me up. Maybe green vegetables won't interact with milk because they're not starchy?

My reading is that he's said above-ground veges do have PUFA in them, and and they tend to also have other defensive chemicals too. Some veges have specific goitrogenic chemicals, eg cabbage and other brassicas/crucifers, but this is reduced by cooking well. Some have oxalic acid - eg spinach, and I think maybe chard too. There are people here who add a little baking soda when cooking them to counteract the oxalic acid. Many have alkaloids that are toxic in large quantities. So he doesn't seem to recommend eating greens as a major staple for a alarge part of one's energy needs. On the other hand, along with those anti-metabolic substances there are some valuable minerals. He has specifically mentioned broth from leafy greens (eg kale, chard) as suitable for supplementing magnesium. Magnesium is important. He's also mentioned healthy populations living mainly on meat and veges, though he generally recommends more fruit and milk.

The PUFA would be big problem if you were trying to get a lot of your calories from leaves, but that would take a few kilos of leaves. I don't know how much someone can eat of particular veges and get more benefit than cost - either generally or you or I specifically. Most foods have some down sides, and it's not possible to eat food and completely avoid PUFA, but leafy greens are not particularly high in fat per volume (though they may be high in relation to calories). I just looked up chard, for instance, and it looks as though a cup of cooked chard would give some useful magnesium, not many digestible carbs/calories, and of the order of 0.1% fat. Not sure exactly how much you get from the cook water, but Peat says it's significant. Even if it's mostly unsaturated, I doesn't look like it would break my PUFA budget. Alkaloid trouble can be mitigated by rotating - variety. I wouldn't go very heavy on the brassicas every day (since even cooked there's likely a little of the goitogens), I'd rotate the greens to mitigate alkaloid trouble, and I wouldn't personally eat several kilos every day. I tend to eat about half a cup of veges in my soup most days, and sometimes a bit more with meat and spuds etc, and figure more would probably be fine. There are no doubt others here who eat more and less.

 

[Giraffe]

post 112227

post 112223

post 112169 Could of been a calcium:magnesium imbalance, which is why milk helped. Mg:Ca should be 1:1.

Is this a typo?

I think the ratio of Calcium:Magnesium should be 1:1, or 2:1 at the very least.

I agree that magnesium is important, especially for hypothyroid people, but I think that your ratio is wrong and unrealistic.

Without adequate calcium, magnesium, protein and some of the fat-soluble vitamins the PTH will rise.

Most foods with a ratio Ca:Mg = 2 or lower are high in phosphorus. Minimum requirements for protein are 1 g/kg bodyweight.

If I tried to get your Ca:Mg ratio from food it would be at the cost of too high phosphorus and/or inadequate protein and/or inadequate calcium. To supplement that much magnesium is tricky too. Too much supplemental magnesium triggers diarrhea, let alone other issues with oral magnesium supplementation discussed already.

 

[Derek]

post 112379

post 112227

post 112223

post 112169 Could of been a calcium:magnesium imbalance, which is why milk helped. Mg:Ca should be 1:1.

Is this a typo?

I think the ratio of Calcium:Magnesium should be 1:1, or 2:1 at the very least.

I agree that magnesium is important, especially for hypothyroid people, but I think that your ratio is wrong and unrealistic.

Without adequate calcium, magnesium, protein and some of the fat-soluble vitamins the PTH will rise.

Most foods with a ratio Ca:Mg = 2 or lower are high in phosphorus. Minimum requirements for protein are 1 g/kg bodyweight.

If I tried to get your Ca:Mg ratio from food it would be at the cost of too high phosphorus and/or inadequate protein and/or inadequate calcium. To supplement that much magnesium is tricky too. Too much supplemental magnesium triggers diarrhea, let alone other issues with oral magnesium supplementation discussed already.

My ratio is only unrealistic if you consume massive amounts of dairy or supplement calcium/eggshell. If you consume normal amounts of calcium, say 1g daily; then it's very easy to achieve a 1:1 or 2:1 of Ca:Mg. Why do you feel magnesium is especially important for hypothyroid people? If you can't retain it, then the amount of magnesium you consume/supplement really doesn't matter much.

PTH is complex. It isn't a matter of just take this or take that. I've seen people's PTH increase via blood work after implementing a high calcium/dairy diet. They should of been getting enough calcium, protein, fat solubles, etc... So why didn't PTH decrease? It actually increased in many cases, or at best; stayed the same.

I'm sorry it's that difficult for you to achieve this ratio via your diet. Maybe you're diet is too restrictive. Or like I said you're just consuming too much calcium. There are people here consuming 3-4g of Calcium daily, obviously you can never get that amount of magnesium; so my advice is to lower calcium to get a better ratio. I am able to get at least a 2:1 ratio fairly easily, without supplementation.

 

[XPlus]

post 112383 PTH is complex. It isn't a matter of just take this or take that. I've seen people's PTH increase via blood work after implementing a high calcium/dairy diet. They should of been getting enough calcium, protein, fat solubles, etc... So why didn't PTH decrease? It actually increased in many cases, or at best; stayed the same.

Yeah, keeping PTH in check is more complex than just taking more calcium.
What I don't read from Peat is the idea of maintaining a certain balance between Calcium and Magnesium.

My understanding is that elevated PTH is part of a stress cycle.
While dietary calcium maybe one major key in keeping it down, I don't see how maintaining a balance between Ca and Mg is a key in resolving it.

The whole stress cycle has to be addressed.
Care has to be taken to minimise stress hormones and other compounds that sometimes work in synergy and trigger one another.
Serotonin, I think, is a major driver of PTH and one factor that cannot directly be addressed by more Ca & Mg, and require some time to be taken care of.

It'd probably sound more sensible to think of Ca and Mg balance in terms of the metabolic rate but that seems complexly related to the the level of energy production.

“Much of the intracellular magnesium is complexed with ATP, and helps to stabilize that molecule. If cellular energy production is low, as in hypothyroidism, cells tend to lose their magnesium very easily, shifting the balance toward the lower energy molecule, ADP, with the release of phosphate. ADP complexes with calcium, rather than magnesium, increasing the cells calcium content.”

If I tried to get your Ca:Mg ratio from food it would be at the cost of too high phosphorus and/or inadequate protein and/or inadequate calcium. To supplement that much magnesium is tricky too. Too much supplemental magnesium triggers diarrhea, let alone other issues with oral magnesium supplementation discussed already.

post 112383

I'm sorry it's that difficult for you to achieve this ratio via your diet. Maybe you're diet is too restrictive. Or like I said you're just consuming too much calcium. There are people here consuming 3-4g of Calcium daily, obviously you can never get that amount of magnesium; so my advice is to lower calcium to get a better ratio. I am able to get at least a 2:1 ratio fairly easily, without supplementation.

While there seems a lot of conflicting data on the magnesium amounts in coffee, I think Peat gets at least 380mg magnesium from coffee alone (i.e. since 1 pound lasts him 3 days). This is at least 90% of the RDA. The rest is more than covered by the remaining chunk of the diet.
Adding something like green broths, should provide an ample of Mg for those with high metabolic rate.

Edit: I think my estimated Mg levels are based on the amounts in roasted beans not the actual brew. A typical combination of Ray Peat recommended foods, however, seem to exceed the RDA on average.