Why Do Iron And Adrenal Supps. Help STTM Followers?

Shrimp

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Before stumbling upon Peat, I frequented the Stop the Thyroid Madness Facebook group and read the book, as well. The author and her many followers claim that low iron and cortisol can lead to problems when supplementing with NDT. She states that many hypothyroid people need to supplement with iron and hydrocortisone or adrenal complex in order to tolerate thyroid medication. Many people have claimed that these supplements have helped them to increase their thyroid medicine to beneficial levels and to generally feel better.

If my understanding is correct, Peat says too much iron is bad and stresses the body, and that the "adrenal" problems when raising thyroid medicine are caused by the body becoming more sensitive to adrenaline while thyroid hormone levels normalize. So why do these people who follow the STTM protocols find benefit from iron and adrenal support supplements?
 

Mittir

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Their recommendation is very dangerous. Cortisol is a stress hormone and whole RP diet is designed to lower
all kind of stress hormone including cortisol. This is way he recommends frequent meal with sugar.
People do feel good when cortisol is high but it comes with a cost, it is damaging to our body in many different ways.
Iron supplement is very very dangerous and Ideal diet is low in iron.
 

pboy

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I dunno but I noticed that any food high in iron is naturally unappealing and if nothing is added to them you probably would never eat them if given the choice. That has to count for something...think about it, and basically all the foods high in iron are the ones associated with GI or eliminative organ issues. But I don't care at this point what people do...I'm at the point where if its unappealing to me, no matter who says what, I won't do it. What we're all trying to do is have some 'authority' figure tell us its ok to do what we naturally want and desire, and that we don't have to do anything we don't want or that is regimental and unappealing, and I think Peat approaches this more than any other nutrition / biology expert I know of. It took me a while to realize this...but when Peat was like 'I had some eggs, milk, orange juice, lots of coffee with cream...and oh, today was steak day" but he seemed non chalant about it, and the callers kept trying to get him to say that Omega 3's MUST be good cause everyone is recommending them, and that sugar must be bad because 'it feeds candida' and Peat was like....your worse off not feeding the candida if you do 'have it', at that point they become invasive, and the worse thing that can happen if you do in fact eat sugar and feed them is that you might feel a little drunk. He's trying to dispel peoples accumulated fear and ***t for lack of a better way of putting it. Another example is milk...people are all tripped out about 'it must be A2 casein from Jersey cows" or whatever, or its the lactose, or the casein, or it MUST be raw, or pasteurizing is ok but not ultra pasteurizing, and homogenizing...no way. To all this, Peat is like...all that really matters is preferably it ate grass and was happy, none of the other stuff really makes much if any difference. Awesome....the suggestion to drink coke basically sums it up. And if youre ok with eating everything he suggests, and don't feel the need to do, add, eat, or supplement anything you don't want to to remain healthy, then you're pretty much good anywhere in the world at any time with whats available (where is there not fruit juice, coffee, diary, seafood, eggs, or coke? almost any gas station, airport, grocery store, ect anywhere in the world will have some sort of one or most of those things and they aren't expensive) He even says that your nervous system is the main thing that influences whether or not youre producing Co2 or lactic acid (basically happy and relaxed or stressed)...so thinking about foods or things in a certain way (thinking you must prepare something the 'right way', it must be this exact type, ect ect, the ratio must be PERFECT, it must be 'in season', you must eat fiber to feel full and have bowel movements) all just trigger stress and the reason or result of what you do really is nearly all because of what you believed or feared and how you approached it. If i'm totally wrong then I give up
 

jaa

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I find mussels delicious but liver disgusting alone. Oysters are taste neutral. I guess my body is undecided on iron :D

I do agree that it's not a good idea to eat food you find disgusting since that's stress you don't really need in your life. At least long term anyway. It took me a few weeks to go from vegetarian to omnivore before I developed a taste for meat (and eggs).
 

4peatssake

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pboy said:
I dunno but I noticed that any food high in iron is naturally unappealing and if nothing is added to them you probably would never eat them if given the choice. That has to count for something...think about it, and basically all the foods high in iron are the ones associated with GI or eliminative organ issues. But I don't care at this point what people do...I'm at the point where if its unappealing to me, no matter who says what, I won't do it. What we're all trying to do is have some 'authority' figure tell us its ok to do what we naturally want and desire, and that we don't have to do anything we don't want or that is regimental and unappealing, and I think Peat approaches this more than any other nutrition / biology expert I know of. It took me a while to realize this...but when Peat was like 'I had some eggs, milk, orange juice, lots of coffee with cream...and oh, today was steak day" but he seemed non chalant about it, and the callers kept trying to get him to say that Omega 3's MUST be good cause everyone is recommending them, and that sugar must be bad because 'it feeds candida' and Peat was like....your worse off not feeding the candida if you do 'have it', at that point they become invasive, and the worse thing that can happen if you do in fact eat sugar and feed them is that you might feel a little drunk. He's trying to dispel peoples accumulated fear and s*** for lack of a better way of putting it. Another example is milk...people are all tripped out about 'it must be A2 casein from Jersey cows" or whatever, or its the lactose, or the casein, or it MUST be raw, or pasteurizing is ok but not ultra pasteurizing, and homogenizing...no way. To all this, Peat is like...all that really matters is preferably it ate grass and was happy, none of the other stuff really makes much if any difference. Awesome....the suggestion to drink coke basically sums it up. And if youre ok with eating everything he suggests, and don't feel the need to do, add, eat, or supplement anything you don't want to to remain healthy, then you're pretty much good anywhere in the world at any time with whats available (where is there not fruit juice, coffee, diary, seafood, eggs, or coke? almost any gas station, airport, grocery store, ect anywhere in the world will have some sort of one or most of those things and they aren't expensive) He even says that your nervous system is the main thing that influences whether or not youre producing Co2 or lactic acid (basically happy and relaxed or stressed)...so thinking about foods or things in a certain way (thinking you must prepare something the 'right way', it must be this exact type, ect ect, the ratio must be PERFECT, it must be 'in season', you must eat fiber to feel full and have bowel movements) all just trigger stress and the reason or result of what you do really is nearly all because of what you believed or feared and how you approached it. If i'm totally wrong then I give up

I agree with you wholeheartedly pboy! I think understanding Peat's philosophy is central to being successful at making dietary changes that create good health. The last thing he wishes to be is another "authoritarian."

“Bucky Fuller’s idea of doing more with less has always appealed to me. When I started Blake College, the idea was for students to learn what they needed to know, by centering on their own questions, and even “poor students” quickly realized that learning could be central to their lives; their internal resources were more fruitful than being guided by authoritative professors in billion dollar universities. I had read Adelle Davis’s books in the ‘50s, and in Mexico I had the opportunity to see how a dime’s worth of vitamin could do what the best hospitals were failing to do. The US Dept. of State believed it was inappropriate for draft age men to be in a college outside the US, if the college didn’t have a pro-war ideology, so they arranged to have the school closed, and that left me free to concentrate on biological issues. Much of my early nutrition investigation was how to get good nutrition at minimal expense, so that poor people could improve their energy and learning ability. The process of cooking corn in lime was discovered long ago, to get more nutrition with less expense. Getting ketoacids from potatoes is a similarly economical solution, that opens opportunities by improving functions while reducing expenses. Milk, rather than meat, is another ecological/economical alternative, that improves health, wealth, and longevity.”
— Raymond Peat, PhD
 

jyb

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Shrimp said:
Before stumbling upon Peat, I frequented the Stop the Thyroid Madness Facebook group and read the book, as well. The author and her many followers claim that low iron and cortisol can lead to problems when supplementing with NDT. She states that many hypothyroid people need to supplement with iron and hydrocortisone or adrenal complex in order to tolerate thyroid medication. Many people have claimed that these supplements have helped them to increase their thyroid medicine to beneficial levels and to generally feel better.

If my understanding is correct, Peat says too much iron is bad and stresses the body, and that the "adrenal" problems when raising thyroid medicine are caused by the body becoming more sensitive to adrenaline while thyroid hormone levels normalize. So why do these people who follow the STTM protocols find benefit from iron and adrenal support supplements?

I'm theorizing that by taking thyroid in small doses throughout the day, as well as sugar and nutrient dense foods, we don't need the adrenal support. However, I don't have an explanation for why they find iron useful. Is it just their theory, or practice?
 
OP
S

Shrimp

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jyb said:
I'm theorizing that by taking thyroid in small doses throughout the day, as well as sugar and nutrient dense foods, we don't need the adrenal support. However, I don't have an explanation for why they find iron useful. Is it just their theory, or practice?
I thought similarly re: thyroid hormone and diet healing the adrenals, yet I've been experiencing bad anxiety and strange heart palps while on a fairly small dose for several months (60mg NDT), which STTM protocol would claim is due to adrenal dysfunction. Many people on the Facebook group have claimed success in raising their thyroid medication to effective levels after supplementing with iron and/or adrenal supplements. They said that attempting to raise thyroid medication before taking the iron and/or adrenal supplements (if levels are low) led to symptoms similar to hyperthyroid- anxiety, shakiness, fast heart rate etc.- and that these issues resolved with supplementation.

I'm just trying to figure out who is right here, as the STTM views on adrenal support and iron seem to directly oppose Peat's, yet many people claim they've found benefit from these supplements.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/nd ... rk-for-me/
 

charlie

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Shrimp, I do not feel 1 pill of thyroid is a small dose. This from personal experience. I had those same symptoms as you except the higher heart rate and those symptoms were from too much thyroid.

Maybe, and this is just speculation. Maybe the iron is lowering the metabolism even more, or, maybe the iron is blocking some of the effects of the supplemented thyroid, and then the effective dose of thyroid would need to be higher? Maybe those people are just taking too much thyroid? Again, all speculation. But I tend to lean towards Peat and he does not buy into the STTM theory on iron or adrenal supplementation.
 

Mittir

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Charlie said:
Maybe, and this is just speculation. Maybe the iron is lowering the metabolism even more, or, maybe the iron is blocking some of the effects of the supplemented thyroid, and then the effective dose of thyroid would need to be higher? Maybe those people are just taking too much thyroid? Again, all speculation. But I tend to lean towards Peat and he does not buy into the STTM theory on iron or adrenal supplementation.

This is another Naturopath invention. In Hope for Health interview the DO ( Doctor of Osteopathic medicine,Mercola is one) commented that he gives his patient adrenaline support to handle stress. RP was polite and did not confront him. But RP let him know that cortisol blocks thyroid and liver. RP clarified this point in several interviews and this article. Cortisol inhibit many things including thyroid and liver's detoxification . This will decrease conversion of T4 to T3 and increase reverse T3, thus increasing the need for more T4 and T3. Reverse T3 competes with T3 . Here is a quote from RP
"Stress, besides suppressing the TSH, acts in other ways to suppress the real thyroid function. Cortisol, for example, inhibits the conversion of T4 to T3, which is responsible for the respiratory production of energy and carbon dioxide. Adrenaline, besides leading to increased production of cortisol, is lipolytic, releasing the fatty acids which, if they are polyunsaturated, inhibit the production and transport of thyroid hormone, and also interfere directly with the respiratory functions of the mitochondria. Adrenaline decreases the conversion to T4 to T3, and increases the formation of the antagonistic reverse T3 (Nauman, et al., 1980, 1984)." --- http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hy ... dism.shtml

About Iron supplement RP mentioned an example of Africa ,where Malaria case increased after they were given iron supplement. Iron lowers immunity to infections and promotes lots of other disease like caner and diabetes.There are tons of studies on pubmed on iron's detrimental affect. RP explained in his article how iron works in our body. One should read this article before supplementing iron. http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/iron-dangers.shtml
I have seen studies that showed blood donation improves blood glucose, liver functions for Hepatitis and lowers ALT.
 

jyb

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Mittir said:
About Iron supplement RP mentioned an example of Africa ,where Malaria case increased after they were given iron supplement. Iron lowers immunity to infections and promotes lots of other disease like caner and diabetes.There are tons of studies on pubmed on iron's detrimental affect. RP explained in his article how iron works in our body. One should read this article before supplementing iron. http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/iron-dangers.shtml
I have seen studies that showed blood donation improves blood glucose, liver functions for Hepatitis and lowers ALT.

I believe that. How do you explain why iron supp seems to help those supplementing thyroid in the adrenal support initial phase?
 

Mittir

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@jyb
I do not know for sure if they are really feeling good after using iron supplement . I have seen in forums, people complaining that they felt horrible after supplementing with iron. Iron supplement can improve condition for an anemic person. Hypothyroidism causes anemia and iron, arsenic and other toxic metal increase RBC production in a defensive manner. For an anemic person iron supplement can improve anemia and that can make one feel better. But ideal way to cure anemia is thyroid supplement.
 

Atalanta

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pboy said:
I dunno but I noticed that any food high in iron is naturally unappealing and if nothing is added to them you probably would never eat them if given the choice. That has to count for something...think about it, and basically all the foods high in iron are the ones associated with GI or eliminative organ issues. But I don't care at this point what people do...I'm at the point where if its unappealing to me, no matter who says what, I won't do it. What we're all trying to do is have some 'authority' figure tell us its ok to do what we naturally want and desire, and that we don't have to do anything we don't want or that is regimental and unappealing, and I think Peat approaches this more than any other nutrition / biology expert I know of. It took me a while to realize this...but when Peat was like 'I had some eggs, milk, orange juice, lots of coffee with cream...and oh, today was steak day" but he seemed non chalant about it, and the callers kept trying to get him to say that Omega 3's MUST be good cause everyone is recommending them, and that sugar must be bad because 'it feeds candida' and Peat was like....your worse off not feeding the candida if you do 'have it', at that point they become invasive, and the worse thing that can happen if you do in fact eat sugar and feed them is that you might feel a little drunk. He's trying to dispel peoples accumulated fear and s*** for lack of a better way of putting it. Another example is milk...people are all tripped out about 'it must be A2 casein from Jersey cows" or whatever, or its the lactose, or the casein, or it MUST be raw, or pasteurizing is ok but not ultra pasteurizing, and homogenizing...no way. To all this, Peat is like...all that really matters is preferably it ate grass and was happy, none of the other stuff really makes much if any difference. Awesome....the suggestion to drink coke basically sums it up. And if youre ok with eating everything he suggests, and don't feel the need to do, add, eat, or supplement anything you don't want to to remain healthy, then you're pretty much good anywhere in the world at any time with whats available (where is there not fruit juice, coffee, diary, seafood, eggs, or coke? almost any gas station, airport, grocery store, ect anywhere in the world will have some sort of one or most of those things and they aren't expensive) He even says that your nervous system is the main thing that influences whether or not youre producing Co2 or lactic acid (basically happy and relaxed or stressed)...so thinking about foods or things in a certain way (thinking you must prepare something the 'right way', it must be this exact type, ect ect, the ratio must be PERFECT, it must be 'in season', you must eat fiber to feel full and have bowel movements) all just trigger stress and the reason or result of what you do really is nearly all because of what you believed or feared and how you approached it. If i'm totally wrong then I give up

pboy. I love your posts. You are so sensible.

One thing I love about the Peat-style diet is how uncomplicated it is. I feel very liberated because now I can go anywhere, anytime and not have to worry about finding the foods that I need. I have been vegan, vegetarian, fruitarian, paleo, macrobiotic, raw juicer--you name it, I've tried it. And during those times, I was always so stressed about food. I even stopped visiting my family because I was so obsessed with whatever diet I was following and could not deal with going a few days or a couple of weeks without strict adherence. And I would often starve myself during the day because I was unable to find appropriate food. There were a few years when I ate breakfast at about 6 a.m. and would have nothing again until at least 5pm, after I got home. I am so glad that those days are over.

The last time I visited my family, I did my grocery shopping at a convenience store. In addition, I also ate whatever my mother prepared for me, even if it was not "Peat-approved". So I had salmon, beans and rice cooked in coconut milk, plantains fried in coconut oil in addition to oxtail, lamb and goat. I was able to spend two whole weeks with my family with no anxiety at all about food and it felt so good. Food is no longer keeping me away from the people I care about. I thank Ray Peat for releasing me from an emotional prison.

There are some people who REALLY WANT to make the Peat-style diet complicated. They want to demonize white sugar, aspirin and processed salt and promote other sweeteners, special salts etc and obsess about balancing pH and phosphorous. They want to apply their orthorexic way of thinking about food to a Peat-style diet, which is a real turn-off. If a person does not like white sugar or plain salt, that is perfectly fine. But why demonize those foods when there is no objective scientific evidence that they are harmful for us if eaten in reasonable amounts within the context of a healthy diet?

But, like you, I just ignore those people now. In any given situation, I buy the best foods that are available to me. If I can get organic milk or juice, great. If not, I drink regular milk and juice and I don't worry about what the cows were fed or what the fruit was sprayed with. Life is just too short to be obsessing about food. My goal is to be healthy enough to enjoy my relatively short time on this planet. Until someone can provide solid scientific evidence that I will live to a sprightly 100 years eating organic food, sea salt and honey, I am just going to relax and eat what I can afford to buy. Food is not the only contributing factor to health or longevity.

Organic food is very expensive where I live so I buy conventional food most of the time. I cannot justify paying $11 for a gallon of organic cow's milk or $12.00 for a gallon of goat's milk. And no way am I going to pay $10.00 to $20.00 for a pound of "special" salt or expensive sweeteners. I use honey sometimes, but mostly white sugar works for me. I have lived for days on nothing but white sugar, milk and salt and my health did not suffer. In fact, it improved. White sugar cured my anxiety and night sweats. And if it did "rob" my body of nutrients, then so what. My health has improved in the process. The body has nutrient reserves for a reason. As long as we continually replenish those reserves by eating foods with micro-nutrients, there is nothing wrong with eating a certain amount of food which do not have micro-nutrients. Reading a book or using the internet probably robs my eyes of vitamin A and other nutrients, but I don't plan to stop doing them.

Before I started Peating, people often guessed my age to be older than I am. Now people think I am younger than my chronological age. My skin looks great, my eyes sparkle and my hair is growing like weeds. And all the positive changes occurred while adding white sugar and canning salt to my basic Peat diet of milk, o.j, eggs, fruit and some potatoes or rice when I crave them.

I am glad that there are reasonable people like you and others here. Otherwise, this forum would become like all the others where rigid orthorexic people make life harder than it needs to be.
 

jaguar43

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Shrimp said:
Before stumbling upon Peat, I frequented the Stop the Thyroid Madness Facebook group and read the book, as well. The author and her many followers claim that low iron and cortisol can lead to problems when supplementing with NDT. She states that many hypothyroid people need to supplement with iron and hydrocortisone or adrenal complex in order to tolerate thyroid medication. Many people have claimed that these supplements have helped them to increase their thyroid medicine to beneficial levels and to generally feel better.

If my understanding is correct, Peat says too much iron is bad and stresses the body, and that the "adrenal" problems when raising thyroid medicine are caused by the body becoming more sensitive to adrenaline while thyroid hormone levels normalize. So why do these people who follow the STTM protocols find benefit from iron and adrenal support supplements?

Because they are on a dessicated thyroid. Ray Peat does NOT think dessicated thyroid is helpful and does NOT recommend it.
 

Beebop

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Interesting question. When I was first diagnosed as iron deficient shortly after my hypothyroid diagnosis I took iron tablets and at the time I thought they really helped, but I hadn't had a period in months and the transition to taking thyroid meant my body started having a monthly bleed. It's possible that I mis-attributed the improvement in symptoms to the iron, and it was actually something else that helped. Or maybe I really needed some iron at the time! I'll never know.

I too liked your post Atalanta.

Could you elaborate on this:

Atalanta said:
White sugar cured my anxiety and night sweats.

Do you mean that it cures it when you get night sweats, or that it cured it permanently? What did you do? I have night sweats and it's annoying to say the least.
 

FunkOdyssey

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Thyroid hormone increases demand for nutrients, both micronutrients, and glucose.

If you are taking more thyroid hormone than you can handle, and experiencing uncomfortable symptoms as a result, cortisol would have a couple effects to ease symptoms:

1) provide glucose by breaking down your tissues
2) block thyroid function via a few different mechanisms, so that your higher dose of thyroid hormone acts like a lower dose

However, it would seem much smarter to simply:

1) eat more sugar
2) take less thyroid hormone
 

Brooke

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jag2594 said:
Shrimp said:
Before stumbling upon Peat, I frequented the Stop the Thyroid Madness Facebook group and read the book, as well. The author and her many followers claim that low iron and cortisol can lead to problems when supplementing with NDT. She states that many hypothyroid people need to supplement with iron and hydrocortisone or adrenal complex in order to tolerate thyroid medication. Many people have claimed that these supplements have helped them to increase their thyroid medicine to beneficial levels and to generally feel better.

If my understanding is correct, Peat says too much iron is bad and stresses the body, and that the "adrenal" problems when raising thyroid medicine are caused by the body becoming more sensitive to adrenaline while thyroid hormone levels normalize. So why do these people who follow the STTM protocols find benefit from iron and adrenal support supplements?

Because they are on a dessicated thyroid. Ray Peat does NOT think dessicated thyroid is helpful and does NOT recommend it.

I thought Ray Peat liked NDT? I'm currently on 4 grains for NDT and am looking to start Cynomel soon for rT3 issues. RT3 is said to be caused by low iron and/or low or high cortisol. Any insights?
 

Mastemah

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OK kids you all KNOW why iron makes the STTM crowd feel better. Its in Rays writings you are just being modest thinking that its harder than it is :)

Iron like arsenic before it is a heavy metal. Ray mentions that iron was given due to low red blood cell count. The body reacts to heavy metals by increasing red blood cell count. Soooooo.....

Iron=more red blood cells=feel better!

See I knew you knew it!

Ray mentions that low thyroid=low body temp so all of your extremity bones make less red blood cells.
So improving metabolism/thyroid is the healthy way to feel better not by poisoning yourself for a short term "feel good".

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

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