Why Are PUFA's Delicious?

[narouz]

Wouldn't you agree that we could look at
popular cookbooks and cooking shows
in order to get a strong handle on what people LIKE to eat?
I guess we'd need to restrict those cookbooks and shows
to those dedicated sheerly to appetite and taste
and with no regard to the various and sundry diet books and "health" books--
only about "deliciousness."

If you like, I'll grant that cookbooks and cooking shows tell us something about the most common preferences within a certain population (which are bound to be profitable targets for advertising). But the most common tastes in a population aren't necessarily representative if tastes are widely dispersed. In other words, if a population consists of many groups, the largest group may be small.

For example, say we poll Americans on their favorite place to vacation. The most common response may be some place like NYC or Las Vegas or a Caribbean island, but there will be so much variability that the most common answer won't likely get more than 10-20% of the responses, and likely much less. The answer "NYC" may be the most common answer (the statistical mode), but it tells you very little about the preferences of the population as a whole, most of whom chose other responses.

So I don't think we can conclude on the basis of cookbooks or cooking shows that, say, a majority of residents of country X love PUFA, as opposed to fats in general. I have yet to rule out the competing explanation that many people simply like fat, regardless of how many perfidious double bonds it contains. But perhaps your next post will persuade me.

This thread, which I started long ago and languished
but has lately taken on new life,
was conceived with a note of humor.
Not that it doesn't interest me--
to try to prove scientifically that PUFA are delicious, but...
that wasn't my original intent.

Really all I meant to do was suggest the comic/tragic/ironic point
that the bad foods, in PeatLand,
do often taste good--or even delicious.
It does seem to me that we are not guided towards
healthy, Peatian foods
by "instinct."
One would like to believe in such a trustworthy, guiding instinct.
"Wouldn't it be pretty to think so."

It would seem that nwo2012 is blessed with such an instinct,
not falling for the allures of peanut butter and avocado.
And kiran too--the scratchy throat divining the false foods.

I don't want to argue in a clinical way
what I conceived as more of a cosmic, existential question.
Some will contemplate their Peat diet
and say that there are not more delicious foods on the planet.
Me...
I can't honestly say that.

I just offer my experience in this matter,
this slice of my Peatian life,
as a pinging out to other Peatians
to make of what you will,
and offer your own thoughts.

 

[Ray-Z]

This thread, which I started long ago and languished
but has lately taken on new life,
was conceived with a note of humor.
Not that it doesn't interest me--
to try to prove scientifically that PUFA are delicious, but...
that wasn't my original intent.

Really all I meant to do was suggest the comic/tragic/ironic point
that the bad foods, in PeatLand,
do often taste good--or even delicious.
It does seem to me that we are not guided towards
healthy, Peatian foods
by "instinct."
One would like to believe in such a trustworthy, guiding instinct.
"Wouldn't it be pretty to think so."

It would seem that nwo2012 is blessed with such an instinct,
not falling for the allures of peanut butter and avocado.
And kiran too--the scratchy throat divining the false foods.

I don't want to argue in a clinical way
what I conceived as more of a cosmic, existential question.
Some will contemplate their Peat diet
and say that there are not more delicious foods on the planet.
Me...
I can't honestly say that.

I just offer my experience in this matter,
this slice of my Peatian life,
as a pinging out to other Peatians
to make of what you will,
and offer your own thoughts.

Arrrrgh. I'm sorry, Narouz. Sometimes the "amateur debater" circuits of my brain fire up when they are not needed.

While my tastes have become Peatier, bacon, pork sausages, and guacamole still tempt me now and then, though I don't cave. I'll probably have some bacon a la Peat (fried to get rid of some PUFA, then refried in CO) today.

 

[j.]

It does seem to me that we are not guided towards
healthy, Peatian foods
by "instinct."
One would like to believe in such a trustworthy, guiding instinct.
"Wouldn't it be pretty to think so."

I think we shouldn't expect the instinct to work in the presence of unnatural, very processed foods, such as wheat flour. Is wheat even edible without processing?

 

[charlie]

Just about as edible as wood.

 

[narouz]

While my tastes have become Peatier, bacon, pork sausages, and guacamole still tempt me now and then, though I don't cave. I'll probably have some bacon a la Peat (fried to get rid of some PUFA, then refried in CO) today.

No problem, Ray-Z!
What you wrote was perfectly fine!
(You know I like debating. )

I just wanted to re-introduce the original tone of the thread
which I might not have put across very successfully.
As I said, it was meant to be a little comic and ironic,
or maybe philosophical.

It would be quite hard if not impossible
for me to prove that nwo2012, for instance,
does Not consider orange juice, milk, and chocolate
the most delicious diet ever devised by man.
How could I prove that!?
So...I was just trying to let everyone know
that I wouldn't be too interested in that. :)

I do think we should guard against a kind of cultish, superiority complex, though.
For example:
if we start saying things like,
"well, everybody who is not on a Peat diet
is so obviously stupid,
that we shouldn't pay any attention to what those people eat!
They are probably not even human!"

Well...those people would constitute about 99.999% of mankind.
Are we really justified in thinking all but a few of our fellow humans are stupid,
have stupid tastes
which should be dismissed out-of-hand?

I think a social scientist-type, objective approach to humans and food and appetite is valuable
in trying to think about what most humans feel is delicious.
Now...from our Peatian viewpoint,
we don't have to believe that what most people find delicious
is also healthy.
But we should acknowledge, I believe, the pretty clearly documented facts
of what most consider delicious.
And, in my opinion, I don't see the need to attach an intellectual or aesthetic judgement to those facts.
I for one know plenty of very smart and aesthetically refined humans
who find pork and avocados and walnuts delicious.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm more interested in the philosophical, existential overviews on this phenomenon.
How many negotiate it by saying it is a strawman?
That avocados and pork and walnuts are filthy putrid disgusting foods.
How many deal with it by seeing it as a human paradox or irony (or, for the overly dramatic--the drama queens! --tragedy)?
Or any other takes....

 

[j.]

Or any other takes....

i just eat my chocolate and drink my orange juice when i'm hungry or thirsty, enjoy the taste, and then forget about taste.

 

[narouz]

Or any other takes....

i just eat my chocolate and drink my orange juice when i'm hungry or thirsty, enjoy the taste, and then forget about taste.

j.-
Would you tell me a little about your Life with Food before Peat?
I know you are a man of concise words.
Have you, in the past, before Peat,
tended to be also a man of concise foods?

 

[j.]

Or any other takes....

i just eat my chocolate and drink my orange juice when i'm hungry or thirsty, enjoy the taste, and then forget about taste.

j.-
Would you tell me a little about your Life with Food before Peat?
I know you are a man of concise words.
Have you, in the past, before Peat,
tended to be also a man of concise foods?

i was on a high PUFA, high grain diet. never cooked (unless microwaving something is considered cooking), always ate out or ordered stuff. pizzas, those with bacon and lots of ham. panera bread's italian combo. jimmy john's. oreo cookies, before i felt bad after eating oreos. lots of soda, before i felt bad after drinking sodas. lots of orange juice, before i felt bad after drinking commercial orange juice. tried a bunch of things to get better, nothing worked, until i tried eliminating PUFAs.

i think one reason i don't mind the peat diet much, as you do in terms of taste, is because eating was always something that i had to do. like when i was playing video games or doing something interesting, i lamented the fact that i had to eat and interrupt what i was doing.

on the other hand, i have always enjoyed the taste of sweet things like oj and chocolate. if i consume chocolate, i have no reason to miss oreos.

 

[narouz]

Or any other takes....

i just eat my chocolate and drink my orange juice when i'm hungry or thirsty, enjoy the taste, and then forget about taste.

j.-
Would you tell me a little about your Life with Food before Peat?
I know you are a man of concise words.
Have you, in the past, before Peat,
tended to be also a man of concise foods?

i was on a high PUFA, high grain diet. never cooked (unless microwaving something is considered cooking), always ate out or ordered stuff. pizzas, those with bacon and lots of ham. panera bread's italian combo. jimmy john's. oreo cookies, before i felt bad after eating oreos. lots of soda, before i felt bad after drinking sodas. lots of orange juice, before i felt bad after drinking commercial orange juice. tried a bunch of things to get better, nothing worked, until i tried eliminating PUFAs.

i think one reason i don't mind the peat diet much, as you do in terms of taste, is because eating was always something that i had to do. like when i was playing video games or doing something interesting, i lamented the fact that i had to eat and interrupt what i was doing.

on the other hand, i have always enjoyed the taste of sweet things like oj and chocolate. if i consume chocolate, i have no reason to miss oreos.

j.-
I hope I don't sound like a **** if I say that is rather like I expected.

I have some friends who I joke around with about food.
I tease them that they "would just as soon inject it" if they could.
And they agree.
That's just the way they are.
They don't look forward to meals, to cooking, to...the sensual experiencing of food.

If the experience of hypodermic injection were not unpleasant itself,
they agree that they would, for the most part,
just like to take in what nutrients they need
and dispense with the whole eating thing.

Now...I truly am not attaching some judgement against them because of that.
But I would venture to say that most people are not like that.
Most people, in my experience, really enshrine the sensuality of food and eating.
They are motivated to get up in the morning partly because of it.
They look forward to it.
They lust for it.
They spend a lot for it.
They go to fancy restaurants (or crappy cheap restaurants) in its pursuit.
In a very real sense...they live for it.

Does that match your experience?

 

[j.]

Does that match your experience?

if i'm going to a restaurant, i don't usually look forward to the food, before or after peating, but to hanging out with the people i like. most restaurants had some food i liked before peating, so i would order that. after peating, i would still go because i don't feel bad if i deviate from the diet at this point. in the past, i felt bad for one or two days if i ate PUFAs. i think my body improved enough that occasional pufa doesn't make me feel bad.

i guess i'm too self-absorbed to care or pay attention to whether most people are like me. i don't think food, no matter how delicious, can be compared in pleasure to many other things, even with learning something intellectual.

once a friend recommended that i inject nutrients through some sort of syrup. i like natural things, so the idea sounded crazy and disturbing, though i realized he was joking.

i lust for beautiful women, not food. maybe because sweet orange juice and chocolate are enough to satisfy my "sensual" food desires.

 

[pboy]

I skipped most responses and just want to answer the original question:

The reason animal fats, eggs, avocado ect are deisirable is becuase of thier fat ratio's / composition,
not just the PUFA. They are mostly all saturated and monounsaturated fats (about 90%, which are more highly craved) and only about 10% PUFA, from which confers nearly no taste to the tongue. Mothers breastmilk fat ratio is about 50% saturated, 40% monounsaturated, about 10% polyunsaturated. So, these foods are highly palatable and craved not just because of the PUFA's, but mostly because of the other fats in them and the ratio's they contain.

However, I dont see why PUFA would be in mothers breastmilk (though in small amounts) and not be necessary.
Peat is getting at least some incidentally, and that is probably enough to cover any actual needs. Obviously animal fats with artificial toxins that are weeks to months old, or vegetable oils with corrosive chemicals that are weeks to months old are gonna be bad for you. The PUFA in a fresh avocado or fresh high quality egg is probably not bad at all in small amount.

 

[j.]

However, I dont see why PUFA would be in mothers breastmilk (though in small amounts) and not be necessary.
Peat is getting at least some incidentally, and that is probably enough to cover any actual needs.

I think Peat mentioned that 2% of the fat he consumes is PUFA. If fat makes one third of his diet, he gets about 0,7% of his total caloric intake in the form of PUFA.

 

[kiran]

However, I dont see why PUFA would be in mothers breastmilk (though in small amounts) and not be necessary.

Humans aren't perfect filters, and no doubt some part of the mother's dietary history can filter through to the child.

 

[kettlebell]

I skipped most responses and just want to answer the original question:

The reason animal fats, eggs, avocado ect are deisirable is becuase of thier fat ratio's / composition,
not just the PUFA. They are mostly all saturated and monounsaturated fats (about 90%, which are more highly craved) and only about 10% PUFA, from which confers nearly no taste to the tongue. Mothers breastmilk fat ratio is about 50% saturated, 40% monounsaturated, about 10% polyunsaturated. So, these foods are highly palatable and craved not just because of the PUFA's, but mostly because of the other fats in them and the ratio's they contain.

However, I dont see why PUFA would be in mothers breastmilk (though in small amounts) and not be necessary.
Peat is getting at least some incidentally, and that is probably enough to cover any actual needs. Obviously animal fats with artificial toxins that are weeks to months old, or vegetable oils with corrosive chemicals that are weeks to months old are gonna be bad for you. The PUFA in a fresh avocado or fresh high quality egg is probably not bad at all in small amount.

We been looking at the constituents of mothers milk long after already contaminating our diets with the seed and fish oil pufas. The pufa found in mothers milk apart from Mead Acid and Oleic acid acid, which we turn into Mead acid, probably shouldn't be there in an ideal situation, certainly not in the quantities it is in. I have no evidence for this but we all know that the mothers diet will heavily influence the quality and composition.

I have yet to see any good evidence that shows what Linoleic acid and Linolenic actually do in the body that saturated fats and mead acid either can't do or don't do better. There doesn't seem to be a single function. I might be wrong but I would want to see good evidence. Every study I have heard of has been cleverly manipulated e.g. In promoting Omega 3 fish oil the control group animals are fed Omega 6 fats which do more damage more rapidly which makes the omega 3 look good etc, or critical data is just left out. Plenty of negative result research is never even published because it doesn't reflect what the industry wants us to see. The journals are all heavily influenced by industry. Politics is rife and always has been.

In one study Peat mentions the scientists who went out to prove that the "EFA's" were "EFA's". They put rats on a diet which was completely absent in PUFA and they started showing different symptoms of nutrient deficiency. The scientists concluded that the issues were caused by a lack of "EFA's" in the diet.

Another group of scientists reviewed the study and saw that the symptoms of deficiency looked the same as the rats they had been experimenting on with B6 deficiency. They copied the study identically apart from the addition of vitamin B6 and the rats thrived. There was no EFA deficiency, only B6 deficiency.

The rats living on an EFA deficient diet had increased metabolisms and when metabolism increases nutrient requirements increase so symptoms of deficiency has everything to do with the essential vitamins and minerals and nothing to do with Linoleic acid, Linolenic Acid, DHA, EPA or any other of the Omega 3 or 6 fatty acids. I am only using one example above but the evidence is everywhere. A great resource is FunctionalAlps.com. They have hundreds (If not thousands by now) of references in the blog section.

Yes our bodies can handle a small amount of pufa from foods, thats what they are designed to do, and when functioning properly dispose of them rapidly because they have no useful function in the body. Saturated fats and omega 9 Mead acid cover all of our fat needs and our bodies can make those, thats how essential they are.

Im still baffled by the backward thinking of "EFA's are essential because our bodies cant make them"

Sugar is essential and we can make that from breaking down muscle, we can also turn that into the fats we require. We can even re-use some vitamins and minerals (Can't remember which ones) but unfortunately we cant make the minerals as we don't run on nuclear fission. At least we didn't when I last checked.

Just my opinion of course!

 

[gretchen]

Omega -3 seems to be mostly about money (ie, corporate greed). Mass manipulation also, if you believe in conspiracy theories...

I ate a lot of nuts my last year paleo, probably like several dozen jars. When nut butter firrst became popular in the late 90s, I remember thinking how ridiculously expensive they seemed. Who would pay $6 for a jar of ground up nuts? And salmon, ugh... There's no telling how much $ I spent. No, PUFAs are disgusting and the bane of humanity.

 

[jyb]

Imagine you had to go eat out and the choice was Italian or Indian/Thai restaurants. What do you pick?

It's easy to avoid wheat at the Indian/Thai. But I'm never sure what they use for frying. The shrimp or meat dishes seem always fried, ideally it would be using ghee but it would seem so much cheaper to use vegetable oils. In addition it's always with some kind of spicy sauce and I wouldn't trust what goes into that.

At the italian it's easy to avoid fried food but hard to avoid wheat. Take pasta in tomato sauce for example.

If I get vitamin E regularly, I limit the effect of pufas. On the other hand I'm not sure whether wheat are quite as bad as pufas.

 

[jaa]

With Indian I just ask them to cook it with butter or ghee and say i'm allergic to vegetable oil.

With Thai I don't think that works as Thais often will just smile and tell you want you want to hear. Just take some vit E and enjoy :)

 

[charlie]

Wheat is toxic to everyone.

 

[jyb]

Wheat is toxic to everyone.

I'm trying to pick the lesser of evils. It's almost impossible to eat healthy when eating out, but some options are better than others.

 

[charlie]

Hey I hear ya. I threw everything out the window the other night and chowed down on some sushi. Chased it with some fireball whiskey afterwards. Have to say, it was an excellent night and I didn't stress it one bit.