Why Are People So Obsessed With Beef?

[CDT]

What kind of magical property are people getting from this? Are there any plant foods that are good whole sources of food.

I heard buckwheat is the king of plant food sources. ANyone take buckwheat?

 

[lvysaur]

There's no magic, it just has a good fat profile.

Chicken breast is also fine, it's very low fat.

 

[CDT]

There's no magic, it just has a good fat profile.

Chicken breast is also fine, it's very low fat.

Isnt chicken breast highly estrogenic? and insulinogenic?

 

[lvysaur]

Isnt chicken breast highly estrogenic? and insulinogenic?

Not in my experience

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

What kind of magical property are people getting from this? Are there any plant foods that are good whole sources of food.

I heard buckwheat is the king of plant food sources. ANyone take buckwheat?

Well, beef has quite a lot of things in its favour:
- low tryptophan content, so getting a lot of protein from beef is very safe;
-lots of creatine, which helps with muscle strength, mental function, energy levels, and spares methyl groups for the production of choline, so I think that means it would be good for the liver;
-very low PUFA content, since this type of meat is from a ruminant animal.
-great source of vitamins, especially vitamin B3 and vitamin B6, as well as B12;
-beef fat has been shown to be liver-protective;
-easy to digest;
-good amount of glycine, which is anabolic to the muscle tissue;
-lack of anti-nutrients or inhibitors of digestion.


As I see it, the best plant foods are ripe fruits and tubers. Grains, as a rule of thumb, should be prepared carefully to avoid the many anti-nutrients that are present in them. That's one of the main reasons why animal products are so convenient: no soaking or sprouting is needed, and even eating them raw is pretty safe, same with fruits, but fruit quality in cities is usually quite bad, so that's why I prefer to depend on white sugar to get my carbs rather than on fruits. Meat, though, is always very high quality and consistent where I live and it's something I can always count on to obtain my nutrition.

Buckwheat has a lot of magnesium and carbs, so, if prepared correctly, it can be a good source of calories and nutrients, but I don't feel right if I don't eat meat/ internal organs, so, based on personal experience, I don't recommend a vegetarian/ vegan diet.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Also, user Ella made an interesting post about buckwheat in another thread a year ago: Buckwheat High In Magnesium, Even Higher Than Dark Chocolate

 

[CDT]

Well, beef has quite a lot of things in its favour:
- low tryptophan content, so getting a lot of protein from beef is very safe;
-lots of creatine, which helps with muscle strength, mental function, energy levels, and spares methyl groups for the production of choline, so I think that means it would be good for the liver;
-very low PUFA content, since this type of meat is from a ruminant animal.
-great source of vitamins, especially vitamin B3 and vitamin B6, as well as B12;
-beef fat has been shown to be liver-protective;
-easy to digest;
-good amount of glycine, which is anabolic to the muscle tissue;
-lack of anti-nutrients or inhibitors of digestion.


As I see it, the best plant foods are ripe fruits and tubers. Grains, as a rule of thumb, should be prepared carefully to avoid the many anti-nutrients that are present in them. That's one of the main reasons why animal products are so convenient: no soaking or sprouting is needed, and even eating them raw is pretty safe, same with fruits, but fruit quality in cities is usually quite bad, so that's why I prefer to depend on white sugar to get my carbs rather than on fruits. Meat, though, is always very high quality and consistent where I live and it's something I can always count on to obtain my nutrition.

Buckwheat has a lot of magnesium and carbs, so, if prepared correctly, it can be a good source of calories and nutrients, but I don't feel right if I don't eat meat/ internal organs, so, based on personal experience, I don't recommend a vegetarian/ vegan diet.

Wait, isnt feedlot meat one of the worst things to include in a diet? If I remember correctly Haidut (Georgi Dinkov, ruler of all worlds, man of the hour, the minute, the second; The Russian Roulette of Metabolomics, etc) states that the antibiotics in conventionally grown meat are terrible for the microbiome. I imaigine that a ihgh protein diet or fat diet is not good long term, due to lactic acid levels that rise in the process of metabolizing said macronutrients....

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Wait, isnt feedlot meat one of the worst things to include in a diet? If I remember correctly Haidut (Georgi Dinkov, ruler of all worlds, man of the hour, the minute, the second; The Russian Roulette of Metabolomics, etc) states that the antibiotics in conventionally grown meat are terrible for the microbiome. I imaigine that a ihgh protein diet or fat diet is not good long term, due to lactic acid levels that rise in the process of metabolizing said macronutrients....

Although pasture-raised beef is best, I think even factory-farmed meat is preferable to no meat, since it will still contain many vital nutrients in an easily digestible form. I believe milk will also contain antibiotics if the the cow was fed them close to the lactation period, but I would still rather take the blow from the anti-biotics than from the pesticides and herbicides used in grain crops. Food from cities is contaminated to a certain degree, so choosing the least contaminated ones is one of the only things one can do if they want to live in the city.
A very high protein diet( more than 200 grams of protein per day, for example) may be problematic if one's kidneys aren't working well, or if their digestion is very slow( protein rotting in the intestines is very harmful), but otherwise, a moderate or high intake of protein( 100g to 200g), in my experience, is very supportive to the overall health of the organism, especially if one is active and walks a lot, lifts weight, is under high stress, etc, and is great for liver health. Ray Peat himself eats around 170 grams of protein per day, and says that he doesn't feel right with much less than that.

Regarding fat intake, some seem to do better with a little more fat, and if one feels and performs better with more fat, then using the safest fats would be a healthy way to keep your well-being and still ingest very little PUFA. Saturated fats stimulate the PDH enzyme, so that means that these fats will lower the levels of lactate, since there won't be unmetabolized pyruvate molecules floating around being targeted by the LDH enzyme to turn into lactate. Also, enough protein lowers serotonin, which is a PDH inhibitor, so eating very little protein will make you more lactate dominant than if you ate a sufficient amount of protein.

 

[nbznj]

Considering how grain fed cattle is being fed, conventional beef should absolutely be avoided



My favorite carbs and absolute bases these days:

- organic sourdough bread
- organic tubers
- organic frozen (or local, seasonal) fruits and greens

Vitamins and minerals for days. Then pasture raised eggs, gelatin, organ meat for protein and some fat. Ezpz. How we’ve been eating for centuries up until big ag came up.

 

[redsun]

Wait, isnt feedlot meat one of the worst things to include in a diet? If I remember correctly Haidut (Georgi Dinkov, ruler of all worlds, man of the hour, the minute, the second; The Russian Roulette of Metabolomics, etc) states that the antibiotics in conventionally grown meat are terrible for the microbiome. I imaigine that a ihgh protein diet or fat diet is not good long term, due to lactic acid levels that rise in the process of metabolizing said macronutrients....

A high protein prevents and reverses fatty liver disease. In other words, if one has either diagnosed fatty liver or is building up fat in the liver from their diet but isnt quite that bad, high amounts of proteins are able completely reverse and lean out one's liver. And seeing how the liver plays a major role in increase T4 to T3 conversion, Bad liver function can probably cause hypothyroidism, low androgens, high estrogen on its own.

I understand that you respect Haidut's opinion and expertise a lot as do most of us, so I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised that it was him that posted The high protein diet reversing fatty liver study:

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

High protein is great for health when combined with adequate carbs. You are quite literally mixing the 2 most anabolic macros together in high amounts, how can it not be good?

Organic meat is probably better, but even feedlot meat is much better food then relying on plants as protein.

 

[Cirion]

A high protein prevents and reverses fatty liver disease. In other words, if one has either diagnosed fatty liver or is building up fat in the liver from their diet but isnt quite that bad, high amounts of proteins are able completely reverse and lean out one's liver. And seeing how the liver plays a major role in increase T4 to T3 conversion, Bad liver function can probably cause hypothyroidism, low androgens, high estrogen on its own.

I understand that you respect Haidut's opinion and expertise a lot as do most of us, so I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised that it was him that posted The high protein diet reversing fatty liver study:

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

High protein is great for health when combined with adequate carbs. You are quite literally mixing the 2 most anabolic macros together in high amounts, how can it not be good?

Organic meat is probably better, but even feedlot meat is much better food then relying on plants as protein.

So why do I do so awful on high animal protein? I have probably experimented on upwards of 100 different foods, and out of everything I have tried - one thing is constant. And that is, that protein is anti-metabolic, for me, and directly lowers my pulses and temps, as well as my mood, energy, motivation, etc. Studies like that are interesting to look at, but when they don't reflect reality (or my reality, at least).

I absolutely agree about the liver, but so far my experiences have shown high protein, if anything, makes my liver worse, not better. As reflected by energy, mood, restfulness, temps, pulses and more.

Tried the caffeine experiment, but it ended badly. I have no doubt precisely because my liver is bad, but it just makes things worse, not better. The problem is caffeine only speeds up stage 1 liver detox rate, and NOT stage 2, which means I probably sped up stage 1, and ended up with a lot of partially detoxed crap, which actually made me more poisoned than before. I am at a loss, nothing helps my liver long-term.

Eggs are supposed to help (choline), but also make me worse, not better.

 

[redsun]

So why do I do so awful on high animal protein? I have probably experimented on upwards of 100 different foods, and out of everything I have tried - one thing is constant. And that is, that protein is anti-metabolic, for me, and directly lowers my pulses and temps, as well as my mood, energy, motivation, etc. Studies like that are interesting to look at, but when they don't reflect reality (or my reality, at least).

I absolutely agree about the liver, but so far my experiences have shown high protein, if anything, makes my liver worse, not better. As reflected by energy, mood, restfulness, temps, pulses and more.

Tried the caffeine experiment, but it ended badly. I have no doubt precisely because my liver is bad, but it just makes things worse, not better. The problem is caffeine only speeds up stage 1 liver detox rate, and NOT stage 2, which means I probably sped up stage 1, and ended up with a lot of partially detoxed crap, which actually made me more poisoned than before. I am at a loss, nothing helps my liver long-term.

Eggs are supposed to help (choline), but also make me worse, not better.

Well the short answer is high quantities of proteins can make you feel worse before they make you feel better. Especially in your case, having avoided protein besides gelatin for long periods of time it makes sense to cause strong reactions. Eggs might not be good for you as you may not tolerate them but meat itself is not the problem. It is likely the strong detox reactions causing the issues. Depending on just how poor your liver function is, how backed up it is in toxins, estrogens, hormones in general, it can make it worse initially.

The matter of fact is that high protein does work. In the short term, you may suffer detox as the liver tries to detoxify everything that has been backlogged, but it does lean out. The liver is trying to work dam hard to catch up for lost time, that's where the amino acids come in, they speed up detox because AAs are exactly what the liver needs and it be playing catch up as long as it is fed enough quantities of AAs, hence the detox.

If we take a look at the nutrients and cofactors needed for the liver to detox, you'll notice animal proteins(beef, chicken, pork, egg, and milk) easily provide a vast majority of it.

Phase I which is Cytochrome P450 Enzymes:

Vitamins B2, B3, B6, B12, Folic Acid, Glutathione, Flavonoids

Phase 2 Conjugation Pathway:

Methionine, Cysteine, Magnesium, Glutathione, B5, B12, Vitamin C, Glycine, Taurine, Glutamine, Folic Acid, Choline

Save for folate, flavonoids, magnesium, Vitamin C, meat provides all these nutrients in considerable quantities.

Assuming you ate a pound of lean beef(this is 16 oz of sirloin tip), you would provide most micronutrients needed for the liver in considerable quantity. Beef is on the low side for B5 though while other meats generally do better there. But the micros are not the real doers when it comes to the liver... Its the protein contents that are doing the major work. Plenty of methionine, cysteine, glutathione(which comes from cysteine), and glycine(isnt shown, but beef is a pretty good source, not too mention you can always use gelatin.

The rest of the nutrients that meat does not provide can easily be provided by plant foods. Orange juice easily gives plenty of Vitamin C, magnesium, and folate, and I'm pretty sure OJ has flavonoids...

This is just 135g protein, based on 35% intake, in my case, i have to double all these protein contents if i wanted to do this. Since you need more cals, you would have even more. You can start seeing how if you start suddenly chomping on lots of protein like beef suddenly how the large influx of methionine, cysteine, glutamine, and choline can trigger detox reactions, especially if you have been severely limiting the necessary amino acids required to detox.

Amino acids in general as well as methionine and cysteine play a major role in Phase 2 not like phase 1.

 

[lampofred]

Tried the caffeine experiment, but it ended badly. I have no doubt precisely because my liver is bad, but it just makes things worse, not better. The problem is caffeine only speeds up stage 1 liver detox rate, and NOT stage 2, which means I probably sped up stage 1, and ended up with a lot of partially detoxed crap, which actually made me more poisoned than before. I am at a loss, nothing helps my liver long-term.

Have you ever tried high dose Vitamin K? It helped me a lot for liver issues. I think Haidut said he thought Vitamin K and caffeine were the two best substances for the liver.

 

[Cirion]

Have you ever tried high dose Vitamin K? It helped me a lot for liver issues. I think Haidut said he thought Vitamin K and caffeine were the two best substances for the liver.

Yeah, you're right. This is an old quote from Haidut I located

I used K2 and caffeine specifically for liver health. The other things you list are also beneficial but for liver health the most helpful would be the following, ranked in order of importance:

Caffeine, K2
Aspirin, glycine, MB
Taurine
Vitamin E
Theanine
Thiamine
BCAA
Pyridoxine
Biotin

What dosage of K2 did you use? I think I tried K2 in the past, but perhaps didn't use it religiously enough to get the full benefit.

 

[Cirion]

Well the short answer is high quantities of proteins can make you feel worse before they make you feel better. Especially in your case, having avoided protein besides gelatin for long periods of time it makes sense to cause strong reactions. Eggs might not be good for you as you may not tolerate them but meat itself is not the problem. It is likely the strong detox reactions causing the issues. Depending on just how poor your liver function is, how backed up it is in toxins, estrogens, hormones in general, it can make it worse initially.

The matter of fact is that high protein does work. In the short term, you may suffer detox as the liver tries to detoxify everything that has been backlogged, but it does lean out. The liver is trying to work dam hard to catch up for lost time, that's where the amino acids come in, they speed up detox because AAs are exactly what the liver needs and it be playing catch up as long as it is fed enough quantities of AAs, hence the detox.

If we take a look at the nutrients and cofactors needed for the liver to detox, you'll notice animal proteins(beef, chicken, pork, egg, and milk) easily provide a vast majority of it.

Phase I which is Cytochrome P450 Enzymes:

Vitamins B2, B3, B6, B12, Folic Acid, Glutathione, Flavonoids

Phase 2 Conjugation Pathway:

Methionine, Cysteine, Magnesium, Glutathione, B5, B12, Vitamin C, Glycine, Taurine, Glutamine, Folic Acid, Choline

Save for folate, flavonoids, magnesium, Vitamin C, meat provides all these nutrients in considerable quantities.
View attachment 14122

Assuming you ate a pound of lean beef(this is 16 oz of sirloin tip), you would provide most micronutrients needed for the liver in considerable quantity. Beef is on the low side for B5 though while other meats generally do better there. But the micros are not the real doers when it comes to the liver... Its the protein contents that are doing the major work. Plenty of methionine, cysteine, glutathione(which comes from cysteine), and glycine(isnt shown, but beef is a pretty good source, not too mention you can always use gelatin.

The rest of the nutrients that meat does not provide can easily be provided by plant foods. Orange juice easily gives plenty of Vitamin C, magnesium, and folate, and I'm pretty sure OJ has flavonoids...

View attachment 14123

This is just 135g protein, based on 35% intake, in my case, i have to double all these protein contents if i wanted to do this. Since you need more cals, you would have even more. You can start seeing how if you start suddenly chomping on lots of protein like beef suddenly how the large influx of methionine, cysteine, glutamine, and choline can trigger detox reactions, especially if you have been severely limiting the necessary amino acids required to detox.

Amino acids in general as well as methionine and cysteine play a major role in Phase 2 not like phase 1.

A reasonable explanation, but detoxing a fatty liver should make you lose weight, not gain it. High protein low(er) carb makes me gain weight, on top of all the symptoms of feeling bad.

but... to be fair, I will say the LAST time I attempted very high caffeine, it was coupled with lots of beef (It wasn't, this latest time), and I did see a little bit of weight loss. Perhaps this is the answer, then. Caffeine + beef? Beef alone with no caffeine, though, seems to make me gain weight. Maybe the caffeine and beef combo is some magical supercharger, where beef provides the materials but caffeine is the accelerant, shuttling the materials more efficiently and quicker. So maybe that could be my next experiment...

And thinking about this has motivated me to take my personal database and add a new column of "Beef Intake" and plot this vs. not only pulse and temp, but also weight gain or loss. I know that plotting it vs pulse and temp will paint a bleak picture, but maybe plotting it vs. weight loss might paint a rosier picture?

 

[lampofred]

Yeah, you're right. This is an old quote from Haidut I located



What dosage of K2 did you use? I think I tried K2 in the past, but perhaps didn't use it religiously enough to get the full benefit.

I used a lot for a few months, 10 drops of Thorne's Liquid K2 (10 mg) along with 650 mg aspirin daily (along with Vitamin E, D, and megadoses of coffee), but soon I felt that the liquid K2 stopped working for me, so I switched to one Life Extension Super K per day, which has 2.6 mg of Vitamin K activity per pill.

I read somewhere radiation deactivates K2, maybe that's why Thorne stopped working for me once I moved to a city and Super K, which has a lot of K1, still works.

 

[lampofred]

A reasonable explanation, but detoxing a fatty liver should make you lose weight, not gain it. High protein low(er) carb makes me gain weight, on top of all the symptoms of feeling bad.

but... to be fair, I will say the LAST time I attempted very high caffeine, it was coupled with lots of beef (It wasn't, this latest time), and I did see a little bit of weight loss. Perhaps this is the answer, then. Caffeine + beef? Beef alone with no caffeine, though, seems to make me gain weight. Maybe the caffeine and beef combo is some magical supercharger, where beef provides the materials but caffeine is the accelerant, shuttling the materials more efficiently and quicker. So maybe that could be my next experiment...

And thinking about this has motivated me to take my personal database and add a new column of "Beef Intake" and plot this vs. not only pulse and temp, but also weight gain or loss. I know that plotting it vs pulse and temp will paint a bleak picture, but maybe plotting it vs. weight loss might paint a rosier picture?

Caffeine and beef will probably poison you with ammonia... Potatoes are a must for me when doing high doses of caffeine to detox the ammonia.

 

[redsun]

A reasonable explanation, but detoxing a fatty liver should make you lose weight, not gain it. High protein low(er) carb makes me gain weight, on top of all the symptoms of feeling bad.

but... to be fair, I will say the LAST time I attempted very high caffeine, it was coupled with lots of beef (It wasn't, this latest time), and I did see a little bit of weight loss. Perhaps this is the answer, then. Caffeine + beef? Beef alone with no caffeine, though, seems to make me gain weight. Maybe the caffeine and beef combo is some magical supercharger, where beef provides the materials but caffeine is the accelerant, shuttling the materials more efficiently and quicker. So maybe that could be my next experiment...

And thinking about this has motivated me to take my personal database and add a new column of "Beef Intake" and plot this vs. not only pulse and temp, but also weight gain or loss. I know that plotting it vs pulse and temp will paint a bleak picture, but maybe plotting it vs. weight loss might paint a rosier picture?

Lol I don't want to give the wrong impression that beef is the holy grail haha. Beef, lean chicken, and pork as well as seafood if you enjoy it can all play a part and honestly diverse meat intake probably diversifies amino acids, especially seeing as fish contains a good bit of taurine.

Yeh you may see weight gain initially, and I am by no means an expert in liver detox information, but it wouldnt be a far stretch to consider that the weight is likely mostly water retention caused by the stress reaction that detox of any number of toxins you can be holding trying to shuttle out quickly through urine, bile, or stool. And coffee seeing at is a stimulant and opposes estrogen and serotonin can lower the effects of water retention while you give the liver time to detox.

In the short term you can feel worse and all markers may end up worse, but if you manage to stick with high protein in the long term and use other things to help stick with, it will work. It has to after all, the liver can only clean itself when providing enough amino acids, seeing as most people get plenty of b-vitamins. Its the AAs that are doing the majority of the detoxing and without it, detox does not happen and therefore the liver cannot lean out and get rid of all the backed up crap it has.

Caffeine and beef will probably poison you with ammonia... Potatoes are a must for me when doing high doses of caffeine to detox the ammonia.

High ammonia is not a certainty for everyone though. Thiamine and biotin, zinc also can lower ammonia, and seeing how its meat we are talking about, biotin and zinc will be provided in high quantities and I wouldnt be surprised if all Bs can help reduce ammonia though i only have seen biotin and thiamine.

 

[Cirion]

Caffeine and beef will probably poison you with ammonia... Potatoes are a must for me when doing high doses of caffeine to detox the ammonia.

Man, at this point even if that's true I don't even care anymore. It seems like nutrition is a dance of literally picking your poison, because every food and supplement is poisonous in some form or fashion. The trick is to just pick the combination of foods that is least poisonous, because you can literally find a reason NOT to eat any foods lol.

Lol I don't want to give the wrong impression that beef is the holy grail haha. Beef, lean chicken, and pork as well as seafood if you enjoy it can all play a part and honestly diverse meat intake probably diversifies amino acids, especially seeing as fish contains a good bit of taurine.

Yeh you may see weight gain initially, and I am by no means an expert in liver detox information, but it wouldnt be a far stretch to consider that the weight is likely mostly water retention caused by the stress reaction that detox of any number of toxins you can be holding trying to shuttle out quickly through urine, bile, or stool. And coffee seeing at is a stimulant and opposes estrogen and serotonin can lower the effects of water retention while you give the liver time to detox.

In the short term you can feel worse and all markers may end up worse, but if you manage to stick with high protein in the long term and use other things to help stick with, it will work. It has to after all, the liver can only clean itself when providing enough amino acids, seeing as most people get plenty of b-vitamins. Its the AAs that are doing the majority of the detoxing and without it, detox does not happen and therefore the liver cannot lean out and get rid of all the backed up crap it has.

Ok, well I'm pretty messed up, so I'm willing to consider trying. I still am not convinced on dietary fat being helpful for anything so I still plan to keep them low.

I found a pretty good primer on liver metabolism (I'm not an expert at all, so it was a good read): http://balancedconcepts.net/liver_phases_detox_paths.pdf which comes with some useful pictures to illustrate also. One thing in there that confused me:

Substances that activate or induce Phase 1 detoxification


Note: The term "induce" can be misleading as it refers to anything that fires up the system - those that are harmful which need processing, and those which aren’t harmful and activate processing.

Drugs and Environmental Toxins: acetate, alcohol, barbiturates, carbon tetrachloride, dioxin, exhaust fumes, nicotine in cigarette smoke, organophosphorus pesticides, paint fumes, pesticides,Phenobarbital, steroid hormones, sulphonamides (sulpha drugs)

Bad Foods: charcoal-broiled meats, high protein diets, saturated fats,

Good Foods:

 Indoles from cruciferous vegetables: cabbage, broccoli, and brussels sprouts

 Diets adequate in protein (meat, fish and eggs or vegetable protein)


 oranges and tangerines (but not grapefruits)

In one sentence it says "high protein diets" are bad, and literally the next couple sentences down "diets adequate in protein". So I assume it means "get enough protein but not too much".

High protein is arbitrary, and there's literally a million definitions as to what "too high" is, and for that matter what adequate is. Peat has said just 80 gram of protein is sufficient (if quality protein at least). Bayesian bodybuilding examined many studies and determined that 0.4 gram per lb bodyweight is enough for a sedentary person. Man, I just don't even know anymore, lol. Because I eat that 0.4 value usually.

 

[charlie]

Thiamine and biotin, zinc also can lower ammonia, and seeing how its meat we are talking about, biotin and zinc will be provided in high quantities and I wouldnt be surprised if all Bs can help reduce ammonia though i only have seen biotin and thiamine.

Except, if someone was already deficient of thiamine, biotin and other b vitamins I think breaking down the meat to get to the b vitamins would be an issue due to enzyme down regulation that has happened. And being on a high carb diet along with a lot of stress would easily deplete the b's even further advancing the issue of said meat breakdown.

Amazoniac et el. 2027