Who Has Used Or Is Using DHT?

raypeatclips

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2016
Messages
2,555
After 3 weeks of use it led to a slight increase in libido, morning wood, possibly digestion and mood at 1.5g a day, 40% protodioscins (verified). I only used it for a month though, I think the recommended course is 3 months, and given how long it took to start kicking in it makes sense. One guy who suffered from low T and is now on 2.5 grams a day feels like an absolute beast. I know of only two true 40% protodioscin sources, tribulyze and tribestan (the one haidut tried). There are a lot of interesting studies on it. The benefits I noticed after 1 month of use were quite mild. I prefer Tongkat Ali, but haidut and quite a few others have noticed anger and agitation on it, some people reported an increase in blood pressure. As for tribulus someone I know has been doing high doses (for two years) with no reduction in effects, he's doing great.

I insist on sprints though, if I eat, sleep and recover well they feel great.

What's your "sprint routine"? For example how often do you sprint, how long do you sprint for, time and distance?
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
This should depend on the individual, I can't do Usain Bolt's routine, I'm more a Berbatov kind of guy. I sprint on the width of a football (the real one) pitch, I do that anywhere between 6-8 times, in between sprints I rest to recover enough but not totally. It takes 10-15 mn, but I don't have a set target, the goal is to not disgust yourself but have fun and be able to recover over the next days. I haven't done it in a while though (winter). I usually add pull ups and maybe push ups.
 

Jsaute21

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2016
Messages
1,344
I do not really understand what PFS sufferers mean when they say that androgens make them "worse." Does it worsen cognitive function? Sexual function? Anxiety? Brain fog? I know that they are all connected in some way, but things get confusing when reading the PFS thread because everyone seems to be talking about a different set of symptoms. Also, I don't think many PFS guys have actually tried bioidentical DHT from a trusted source. 11-keto-dht is NOT DHT...
This. I am no expert on PFS but i assume eating a Peat inspired diet, taking thyroid if necessary, dabbling with vitamins, dhea, preg, cypro etc would ultimately improve their estrogen driven symptoms. I assume their metabolism boost would suck initially, as their hormones and liver are so incredibly out of wack. Danny Roddy is a good example of a PFS guy who has regained his health, looks, libido etc. from Peat. I am not trying to diminish the challenges that come with this awful poison that people are subjected to. I just think found nutrition principles should improve ones condition overall over time.
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
I think it's a bit harsh on them, before leaving some have been here for a long time with possibly some improvement or none. It's a complex issue, if I had pfs I'd do the same as they do, try to get back to normal and understand the issue rather than wait 5 years to get 70%better.
 

raypeatclips

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2016
Messages
2,555
This should depend on the individual, I can't do Usain Bolt's routine, I'm more a Berbatov kind of guy. I sprint on the width of a football (the real one) pitch, I do that anywhere between 6-8 times, in between sprints I rest to recover enough but not totally. It takes 10-15 mn, but I don't have a set target, the goal is to not disgust yourself but have fun and be able to recover over the next days. I haven't done it in a while though (winter). I usually add pull ups and maybe push ups.

Thanks :) Nice berbatov reference not heard that name in a couple of years.

So you're saying my old soccer coaches fitness sessions of sprints until some of us physically vomit isn't the way to get fit and healthy? Who knew.
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
That's Usain bolt type of training so apparently it works. I don't have the funds to afford vomiting my meals so I have to be a lazy f*ck.
Thanks :) Nice berbatov reference not heard that name in a couple of years.

So you're saying my old soccer coaches fitness sessions of sprints until some of us physically vomit isn't the way to get fit and healthy? Who knew.
 
OP
D

dookie

Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
517
i thought that was more cortisol?

Do you mean cortisol causing water retention? Cortisol causes salt retention, so it should cause excretion of some water, but it may cause a type of "swelling" different than estrogen. People high on cortisol, Cushing's patients for example, don't have "big thighs" (in fact they have very thin limbs). This is unlike the estrogenic bloat which makes your limbs bloated with water, as it does your muscles and other tissues. With cortisol, it just expands some specific areas, like your stomach, and again, having a lean stomach is actually a sign of high estrogen I read... So cortisol may actually counter some effects of estrogen? There are many opposites, like Cortisol is anti-histamine, estrogen is pro-histamine, so on...
 

ddjd

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
6,677
Do you mean cortisol causing water retention? Cortisol causes salt retention, so it should cause excretion of some water, but it may cause a type of "swelling" different than estrogen. People high on cortisol, Cushing's patients for example, don't have "big thighs" (in fact they have very thin limbs). This is unlike the estrogenic bloat which makes your limbs bloated with water, as it does your muscles and other tissues. With cortisol, it just expands some specific areas, like your stomach, and again, having a lean stomach is actually a sign of high estrogen I read... So cortisol may actually counter some effects of estrogen? There are many opposites, like Cortisol is anti-histamine, estrogen is pro-histamine, so on...
Agreed, but those bodybuilders usually take unphysiological doses of DHT or its synthetic derivatives designed for oral use. A common dose I have seen discussed on so many forum is 25mg-50mg of say Proviron daily. Even 25mg dose of Proviron will suppress BOTH the synthesis of E and T, and we don't want that. A 5mg dose on the other hand (of any DHT-type steroid) usually lowers E to healthier levels, which allows T to rise even more both of which have a rather positive effect on libido and systemic health. Taking pure T, which is also often done in unphysiological doses, suppresses HPGA much more easily than DHT-type steroids due to its conversion into estrogen. It is estrogen that is the true negative feedback driver on HPGA. That is why AI raise T levels - i.e. by removing the negative feedback on HPGA. DHT is much less suppressive of HPGA compared to T but in higher doses it inhibits 17b-HSD3, which is responsible for T synthesis. In lower doses it is still a potent aromatase inhibitor, an androgen agonist (duh), inhibitor of TPH (serotonin synthesis), and cortisol antagonist (albeit weaker than T) without affecting T synthesis much. Most studies show aromatase inhibition by DHT (and other 5-AR steroids like androsterone) in the low nanomolar up to 1uM concentration range, which is achievable with doses in the 1mg-5mg range. Of course, bodybuilders are usually after that cut-and-dry look and health concerns usually come in second. So, they do not like the whole low-dosing regimen. But if health is the primary concern and if DHT-type steroids are used sensibly and in physiological doses, they can provide quite a bit of benefit while possibly even raising endogenous T. Thus, no need to run cycles with massive doses of T only to get suppressed and then do all kinds of dangerous stuff like hCG (known carcinogen when used in higher doses), clomid (highly estrogenic in the brain, has killed some patients with MS) or tamoxifen (estrogenic/carcinogenic in the prostate), etc.
Just my 2c.

not sure if youve already answered this haidut but what about an idealabs product similar to andractim? do you think andractim works? maybe its just a legality issue...
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
not sure if youve already answered this haidut but what about an idealabs product similar to andractim? do you think andractim works? maybe its just a legality issue...

Which country do you live in? Is DHT legal there? If DHT was legal in the USA (where we are) we would have released it years ago.
 

ddjd

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
6,677
Also, it doesn't say any other products are in it on the website. But what I will prob do instead, is buy some bulk DHT powder from China, and some DMSO from Amazon, and make my own topical DHT. I might also get some testosterone powder and do a low dose of T for a while...RP said test in 5mg a day is safe.
i want to do this, have you done it yet?
 

dand

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
259
Note that he does not recommend taking DHEA anymore. He takes it himseld and comments on optimal doses IF you decide to take it but does not recommend it for supplementation like pregnenolone and progesterone. I have asked him specifically about this and he said that DHT is much lower risk than DHEA.

@haidut
Interesting. I really seemed to like pansterone,but haven't taken much lately. My stepfather has put on a ton of muscle mass on pansterone, but also his cataracts are getting worse n worse. Is it possible for low dose dhea/pregnenolone to convert into estrogen? I know this has been covered a lot, but I'm just wandering if there is a variable that we aren't considering that could impact someone even when they take dosages at or below the amount that Peat recommends. So, something like 5mg DHEA and 5mg pregnenolone. It does not sound likely, but in light of this commentary and Ray thinking it is less risky, I was curious what you thought.
 
Last edited:

dand

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
259
I think he said it on one of his articles - he is concerned about the link between DHEA and Alzheimers (AD). People with AD have several-fold higher brain levels of DHEA than healthy controls. Whether the DHEA is there to protect the brain is not known. But given its propensity to turn into estrogen (which the brain is capable of synthesizing locally from DHEA) during stress and disease, I think he is just being cautious until more is known. But you can ask him, he usually responds to questions about DHEA.

Got it. So in stress and disease it could easily become estrogenic. My problem with this is then it turns out that this is basically everyone. Since anyone over 60 in America is no doubt stressed and probably diseased in some way shape or form. Just want to make sure I'm not hurting him with the pansterone. He appears to love it, but he has had a lot of chronic health issues over the years so just being cautious. He is doing great now largely because of Idea Labs and more Peat inspired eating, but I am surprised about how quick then onset of these cataracts has been. Obviously, multi-factorial and more likely to be from something else. He's taken pansterone for a few years now and the onset was only recent with the cataracts.
 
Last edited:

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Got it. So in stress and disease it could easily become estrogenic. My problem with this is then it turns out that this is basically everyone. Since anyone over 60 in America is no doubt stressed and probably diseased in some way shape or form. Just want to make sure I'm not hurting him with the pansterone. He appears to love it, but he has had a lot of chronic health issues over the years so just being cautious. He is doing great now largely because of Idea Labs and more Peat inspired eating, but I am surprised about how quick then onset of these cataracts has been. Obviously, multi-factorial and more likely to be from something else. He's taken pansterone for a few years now and the onset was only recent with the cataracts.

Given how low DHEA levels are in older people, as long as the dose used is limited to 5mg DHEA daily then I think the chance or aromatization is pretty low. Human studies showed that about 18mg daily is the cutoff dose after which estrogen starts to rise (statistically significantly).
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
@haidut
Interesting. I really seemed to like pansterone,but haven't taken much lately. My stepfather has put on a ton of muscle mass on pansterone, but also his cataracts are getting worse n worse. Is it possible for low dose dhea/pregnenolone to convert into estrogen? I know this has been covered a lot, but I'm just wandering if there is a variable that we aren't considering that could impact someone even when they take dosages at or below the amount that Peat recommends. So, something like 5mg DHEA and 5mg pregnenolone. It does not sound likely, but in light of this commentary and Ray thinking it is less risky, I was curious what you thought.

I doubt the cataracts are related to DHEA. They usually are serotonin-driven. So, something like cyproheptadine or thyroid may help with that.
 

Koveras

Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
720
Got it. So in stress and disease it could easily become estrogenic. My problem with this is then it turns out that this is basically everyone. Since anyone over 60 in America is no doubt stressed and probably diseased in some way shape or form. Just want to make sure I'm not hurting him with the pansterone. He appears to love it, but he has had a lot of chronic health issues over the years so just being cautious. He is doing great now largely because of Idea Labs and more Peat inspired eating, but I am surprised about how quick then onset of these cataracts has been. Obviously, multi-factorial and more likely to be from something else. He's taken pansterone for a few years now and the onset was only recent with the cataracts.

I doubt the cataracts are related to DHEA. They usually are serotonin-driven. So, something like cyproheptadine or thyroid may help with that.

IIRC there was a couple articles [in russian] on emoxypine succinate being useful for cataracts. Given the similarity of emoxypine to B6, maybe the B6, succinate, and other substrates in Cardenosine would be useful. Especially since a lot of serotonin's negative effects seemed to be due to the interference with energy production.
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
IIRC there was a couple articles [in russian] on emoxypine succinate being useful for cataracts. Given the similarity of emoxypine to B6, maybe the B6, succinate, and other substrates in Cardenosine would be useful. Especially since a lot of serotonin's negative effects seemed to be due to the interference with energy production.

Thanks, that's actually a great point! I did not think of emoxypine. I am still not sure what it has to offer that other 3-hydroxy-pyridines like B6 or even niacinamide cannot. The comparative studies of emoxypine with B3 for protection from hypoxia found similar results. I think it is the succinic acid that, when combined with the pyridine, produces the unique effects. So, Cardenosine may very well work too.
 
Last edited:

dand

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
259
Thanks, that's actually a great point! I did not think of emoxypine. I am still not sure what it has to offer that other 3-hydroxy-pyridines like B6 or even niacinamide. The comparative studies of emoxypine with B3 for protection from hypoxia found similar results. I think it is the succinic acid that, when combined with the pyridine, produces the unique effects. So, Cardenosine may very well work too.

Great comments @haidut and @Koveras . Thank you for the insight! Back to the experiment lab!
 

goodandevil

Member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
978
Got it. So in stress and disease it could easily become estrogenic. My problem with this is then it turns out that this is basically everyone. Since anyone over 60 in America is no doubt stressed and probably diseased in some way shape or form. Just want to make sure I'm not hurting him with the pansterone. He appears to love it, but he has had a lot of chronic health issues over the years so just being cautious. He is doing great now largely because of Idea Labs and more Peat inspired eating, but I am surprised about how quick then onset of these cataracts has been. Obviously, multi-factorial and more likely to be from something else. He's taken pansterone for a few years now and the onset was only recent with the cataracts.
Why dont you take him off/reduce the supplements for a month to see what happens? Always a good idea.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom