Which Of These Vices Is The Worst?

[cyclops]

I think some of these substances have been debated as having potential benefits, but are generally frowned upon as the negatives outweigh the positives. I am curious though, which of the following would you say is the worst for your health? Which would be the least offensive?


Kratom
Alcohol (clear spirits)
Smoking Organic Tobacco
Vaping Nicotine Pods

 

[Frankdee20]

I mean, overall health, brain health, etc ? I smoke organic ciggarettes, about half a pack a day. When I drink alcohol, I only drink clear spirits. I do not vape, nor have any desire to use Kratom. Status quo paradigm would automatically condemn smoking. Then depending on how much one drinks, clear spirits. But drinking 7-21 drinks as units of alcohol a week is considered moderate, and even beneficial. We do not know much about vaping as of yet, and Kratom comes with it's own perills. It is addictive as well, and can mess with opiate receptors. I don't know about you, but one reason I prefer alcohol to opiates is simple. The withdrawal from opiates is prolonged, shitty, depressing, and serious, but not life threatening. I have been addicted to Heroin and will never go back. I like alcohol, I can control the bad and the good it elicits. Pick your poison then.

 

[cyclops]

I should have put that I meant chronic, consistent use of each, meaning a user would likely go through withdrawals and be uncomfortable if they tried to quit.

I'm thinking Kratom is probably the worst offender, being an opiate as you said.

Alcohol seems to get more negativity on this forum than nicotine.

Surprisingly, I'm not really sure between smoking and vaping. Most people would obviously say smoking is the worst choice, but it's been discussed how you get other things in tobacco vs isolated nicotine. It almost seems as if tobacco could be beneficial if not smoked. And we still don't know about all the other junk that's in vape juice.

Ideally, I'm guessing it's probably a good idea not to use any of these things if you can help it.

 

[Blossom]

I have been addicted to Heroin and will never go back.

I want to thank you for this @Frankdee20. It’s so, so wonderful to hear. I had the impression from working with people being treated for endocarditis from shooting heroin that not many people were able to stop. I only see the destruction and ravages of the drug and never get to hear positive stories from people recovered. You have my utmost respect.

 

[danielbb]

I want to thank you for this @Frankdee20. It’s so, so wonderful to hear. I had the impression from working with people being treated for endocarditis from shooting heroin that not many people were able to stop. I only see the destruction and ravages of the drug and never get to hear positive stories from people recovered. You have my utmost respect.

I am also impressed @Frankdee20. I would like to suggest one other thought for your mind. I am now 58 years old and most of my life was a social drinker. Not an alcoholic but I looked forward to drinking at social occasions and weekends for the most part. On November 17th, 2017, I decided to go without alcohol because my health was going in the right direction and I wondered if I even needed alcohol. After a time, that message was answered clearly for me - alcohol is unnecessary. Ever since we were kids, we either saw our parents drinking or witnessed it on TV and it seemed as though you needed alcohol to have a good time in life. We were deceived by that impression imho. After being away from it for about 6 weeks, I found I was having a better time without it. At social occasions, I drink club soda and nobody even knows I am not drinking alcohol. I don't plan on ever drinking again and I am thankful for that. Also, I have no negative feelings for people who choose otherwise with respect to alcohol. Nonetheless, I am still proud that you managed to recover from your addiction.

 

[Makrosky]

I think chronic (I guess you mean daily) use of ckear spirits is, by far, the most dangerous. You will quickly become addicted, get korsakov, inflammation, estrogen, cognitive issues, depression, etc...

I don't know about Kratom but I doubt it can be more deleterious for health than drinking vodka every day.

 

[Makrosky]

Opiate use was very widespread and common until half 20 century where USA started (and forced other countries to comply) the world wide madness crusade against "narcotics".

Opiates are not bad if used pure (not heroin bought in streets) and with common sense. It is probably the most used drug in human history.

 

[Frankdee20]

I am also impressed @Frankdee20. I would like to suggest one other thought for your mind. I am now 58 years old and most of my life was a social drinker. Not an alcoholic but I looked forward to drinking at social occasions and weekends for the most part. On November 17th, 2017, I decided to go without alcohol because my health was going in the right direction and I wondered if I even needed alcohol. After a time, that message was answered clearly for me - alcohol is unnecessary. Ever since we were kids, we either saw our parents drinking or witnessed it on TV and it seemed as though you needed alcohol to have a good time in life. We were deceived by that impression imho. After being away from it for about 6 weeks, I found I was having a better time without it. At social occasions, I drink club soda and nobody even knows I am not drinking alcohol. I don't plan on ever drinking again and I am thankful for that. Also, I have no negative feelings for people who choose otherwise with respect to alcohol. Nonetheless, I am still proud that you managed to recover from your addiction.

Thanks, yeah, guess I never mentioned it on the forum. When I was 17, I used heroin and cocaine on a regular basis. That dance lasted about 3 years. I have not used Heroin since 2001, and stopped using Cocaine in 2004. I think I ended up becoming a drinker at 25 (late onset) to come down from the stimulation of Cocaine. It stayed with me for years, with varying degrees of frequency, complete cessation and abstinence, psychological appeal, and only a few instances of withdrawal from that. Lately, as I have corrected much in the way of supplementation, I do not feel the need to drink habitually. It became a crutch for me in dealing with low feelings, anxiety, stress reduction, and the simple untreated **** its that came with addiction. These days, I can say I am a social drinker, but the risk of binge drinking for a few days will always be there. That is okay though, the crash and after effects of drinking are nowhere near the absolute abyss that is Cocaine's come down, and the absolute drawn out living death that is Heroin withdrawal. Like I said, alcohol is a dance I have been able to keep up with, smoking however, that has been a 2 year thing now. I am 39 years old, I never really look back at how lucky or great full I should consider myself to not wake up with arms smelling like Cattle from injecting Cocaine.

 

[Frankdee20]

Opiate use was very widespread and common until half 20 century where USA started (and forced other countries to comply) the world wide madness crusade against "narcotics".

Opiates are not bad if used pure (not heroin bought in streets) and with common sense. It is probably the most used drug in human history.

This is true, lets put things in context here. Aside from constipation, and the risk of respitory depression, opiates are less toxic than alcohol, and less cardio toxic than Cocaine. Addiction however, is the trade off. No thank You.

 

[Makrosky]

This is true, lets put things in context here. Aside from constipation, and the risk of respitory depression, opiates are less toxic than alcohol, and less cardio toxic than Cocaine. Addiction however, is the trade off. No thank You.

Absolutely.

Apparently "addicts" to opiates were very rare before mid 20 century. It is a modern thing. The word "addict" itself is fully charged of complex cultural implications.

It is the same as cocaine and coca leaves. A person who takes daily cocaine can be considered an "addict". The milions of indigenous south american people who used (and still do) chew coca leaves daily like they have been doing for millenia, can be considered "addicts"?

Imagine now the government forbids coffee (it has happened in the past in other countries). There will be a big black market for it and people dying because of it. ODing, adulterated stuff, etc... same thing happens with opium. PLUS modern life allows people to become junkies. In pre industrial life would be impossible for a junkie. You spend all day smoking opiates? You don't do the farm things and next year you are dead by starvation and hypothermia. 100% guaranteed.

 

[Andman]

@Frankdee20 been on the H as well, congrats for quitting!

While smoking does seem to have some benefits, i find it highly addictive (also rather expensive nowadays). I keep going back to it, while i was able to quit heroin and other drugs for good, so id say its the most offensive on that list.

 

[LUH 3417]

Absolutely.

Apparently "addicts" to opiates were very rare before mid 20 century. It is a modern thing. The word "addict" itself is fully charged of complex cultural implications.

It is the same as cocaine and coca leaves. A person who takes daily cocaine can be considered an "addict". The milions of indigenous south american people who used (and still do) chew coca leaves daily like they have been doing for millenia, can be considered "addicts"?

Imagine now the government forbids coffee (it has happened in the past in other countries). There will be a big black market for it and people dying because of it. ODing, adulterated stuff, etc... same thing happens with opium. PLUS modern life allows people to become junkies. In pre industrial life would be impossible for a junkie. You spend all day smoking opiates? You don't do the farm things and next year you are dead by starvation and hypothermia. 100% guaranteed.

The hypodermic syringe in an industrial society created heroin addiction. They used to market opiates to mothers for hysterical babies. Also you can find old posters from the south marketing opiates for nervous disorders and alcohol withdrawal.

 

[Andman]

wouldnt say opiates are more toxic than booze btw..used to think so as well, but from a peat perspective theyre terrible. think endotoxin increase, androgen decrease, metabolic slowdown etc.

 

[cyclops]

Definitely very impressed by those who have quit hard drugs and been able to stay clean!

I'm surprised to hear that alcohol is far worse than opiates. I thought I read a quote by Ray where he says that perhaps the damage from alcohol would be nothing cumulative outside the presence of PUFA (or something like that, paraphrasing.)

But I know he thinks opioids are bad due to their effects on histamine, estrogen, and promoting tissue growth.

"Opiates are the standard medical prescription for pain control in cancer, but they are usually prescribed in inadequate quantities, “to prevent addiction.” Biologically, they are the most inappropriate means of pain control, since they increase the release of histamine, which synergizes with the tumor-derived factors to suppress immunity and stimulate tumor growth."

I guess I had it in mind to compare LIGHT, but daily users of the substances I mentioned. Of course the poison is in the dose and if you are consuming massive amounts of these things you will have more problems.

 

[Frankdee20]

I think alcohol really does have health benefits at low to moderate doses, say 1-2 units per day. Think about how the blood circulates from just a bit of it. Weather it’s true or not, that moderate drinkers outlive abstainers and heavy drinkers.

Comparing all of these things requires consideration for how we’ve become alchemists, in turning lead (coca leaf) into gold (isolated cocaine alkaloid) and the advent of hypodermic syringe, and smoking apparatus, we ****88 ourselves. One can even consider distilled spirits to be the same as modern drugs in that natural beer and wine are less hazardous then extracted pure ethanol. Idk.

 

[cyclops]

Comparing all of these things requires consideration for how we’ve become alchemists, in turning lead (coca leaf) into gold (isolated cocaine alkaloid) and the advent of hypodermic syringe, and smoking apparatus, we ****88 ourselves. One can even consider distilled spirits to be the same as modern drugs in that natural beer and wine are less hazardous then extracted pure ethanol. Idk.

Yeah I guess it's kind of hard and unfair to compare any whole substance with an isolated substance. Kratom & Tobacco would be whole substances while vaping Nicotine would be isolated. I don't much about how alcohol is made, but maybe spirits should be somewhere in between? Because spirits are not 100% alcohol right, they have other stuff in it? Or is vodka just 40% alcohol and the rest water? But then whiskey must have some other stuff in it Im guessing...

 

[Frankdee20]

Yeah I guess it's kind of hard and unfair to compare any whole substance with an isolated substance. Kratom & Tobacco would be whole substances while vaping Nicotine would be isolated. I don't much about how alcohol is made, but maybe spirits should be somewhere in between? Because spirits are not 100% alcohol right, they have other stuff in it? Or is vodka just 40% alcohol and the rest water? But then whiskey must have some other stuff in it Im guessing...

Well I mean distillation is not the same as natural fermentation. One can certainly obtain 80 percent vodka (160 proof moonshine) so that doesn’t ever happen with beer or wine. Whiskey is simply distilled spirits aged in oak barrels for added character.

 

[Frankdee20]

Same can be said with isolated cathinone from Khat shrub, or isolated ephedrine from Ma Huang, or caffeine from Coffee.

 

[cyclops]

Well I mean distillation is not the same as natural fermentation. One can certainly obtain 80 percent vodka (160 proof moonshine) so that doesn’t ever happen with beer or wine. Whiskey is simply distilled spirits aged in oak barrels for added character.

I understand. I wouldn't be surprised if beer and wine have some added benefits compared to spirits as whole substances usually do. Although they are not recommended by Peat because they have more estrogen.

Maybe alcohol really isn't that great if the parent product is something to be avoided. As opposed to coffee where it is all around better than caffeine.

 

[Makrosky]

Biologically, they are the most inappropriate means of pain control,

I think Ray is not right here. Opiates have been the ONLY effective pain killers known to human kind for millenia, and even now a days I don't think there are any painkillers that can be as potent as natural or synthetic opiates. Or there are?