Whey. Ever Ok?

[LiveWire]

I’m been able to find these 2 quotes regarding whey protein powder:

“Whey, which is sold as a protein supplement, and egg whites contain too much tryptophan and can be antithyroid if used excessively.” -Ray Peat, PhD

“For example, whey protein contains much more tryptophan than whole milk or cheese does, and would tend to suppress the thyroid and activate the whole serotonin-stress system. Whey might be good for fattening pigs, but its acceptance in the health food industry as a powdered protein supplement is just another example of the harmful effects of serotonin mythology.”-Ray Peat, PhD

Too bad for me, because whey powder is a quick, relatively cheap and convenient way to up one’s protein intake when building muscle.

The powder i use is pure whey, no additives, it’s from grass fed Irish cows.

My question: would consuming it with sufficient amount of collagen negate the above captioned negative effects tryptophan/thyroid effects?

I do 3 scoops of whey and 1 scoop of collagen, sometimes I additionally throw in a small 5g scoop of pure glycine.

 

[Gone Peating]

"if used excessively"

would differ by person

do trial and error

if i do 25g of whey at once it's too much and i can tell it affects how i feel

if i just do 12g (one scoop) at once i feel fine

whey is milk protein and ray peat himself drinks a lot of milk so

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I disagree with Peat that whey has more tryptophan than milk. According to selfnutritiondata.com, 100 grams of protein from whey has around 1,6 grams of tryptophan, while 100 grams of protein from whole milk has around 2,2 grams of tryptophan. Cheese, however, indeed has less tryptophan than whey. I believe 100 grams of protein from cheese has about 1,1 grams of tryptophan.
It's important to note that both milk and cheese have casein, which, if I recall correctly, inhibits the absorption of some of the tryptophan, but I wonder if that would cause tryptophan to reach the large intestine, where it could be acted upon by bateria and used to produce some toxic by-products.

 

[Ron J]

In addition to gelatin.
Depleting Serotonin With BCAA
Even if you manage to keep serotonin low, I'm not sure if that would prevent the accelerated aging from tryptophan. It's your choice, but I'd find another way.

 

[danishispsychic]

whey gave me kidney stones so there is that......i wont go near it now.

 

[Cirion]

Tbh I say do what you want at this point. I used to stress excessively about tryptophan but honestly, as long as you don't over-do protein, it's hard to over-do tryptophan as well. I tend to stick to around 120 gram of protein a day now and I don't even worry about gelatin anymore tbh. It was only an issue when I was consistently eating 200+ gram of protein a day. You really don't need to have extreme protein intakes even when building muscle. That's a misconception that the fitness industry has tried to sell people.

 

[LiveWire]

Thanks for all the responses.

I do 2 x 30 grams of whey per day, except for workout days (two days a week) when I go nuts and the whey then is 5 x 30 grams. Each time with at least 10-15 grams of collagen, or 5 grams of glycine.

Is it excessive? Maybe. But what I wonder is that whey is so ubiquitous, and has been for decades, without anyone reporting negative effects. Though I understand this is a shaky argument because so is PUFA...but still, seems Peat is pretty alone in opposing whey so much.

I eat a pound of cottage/quark cheese a day, and a liter of milk, but this is way too little for me to get to the required amount of protein. I aim for 170 grams a day (I weigh 220 pounds/6’7’’).

As far as the trial and error suggestion - I’ve been doing this for about half a year, with no effects one way or another. But then again, I never respond to anything ever. And I mean nothing. I’m ok and constant, all the time.

Cheers

 

[bromuda]

I think you can get away with a lot depending on your body/genetics and if you're already athletic or have a ton of muscle mass. You see fitness influencers chugging down whey protein, pre workout with excess citruline/arganine and doing fine.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Thanks for all the responses.

I do 2 x 30 grams of whey per day, except for workout days (two days a week) when I go nuts and the whey then is 5 x 30 grams. Each time with at least 10-15 grams of collagen, or 5 grams of glycine.

Is it excessive? Maybe. But what I wonder is that whey is so ubiquitous, and has been for decades, without anyone reporting negative effects. Though I understand this is a shaky argument because so is PUFA...but still, seems Peat is pretty alone in opposing whey so much.

I eat a pound of cottage/quark cheese a day, and a liter of milk, but this is way too little for me to get to the required amount of protein. I aim for 170 grams a day (I weigh 220 pounds/6’7’’).

As far as the trial and error suggestion - I’ve been doing this for about half a year, with no effects one way or another. But then again, I never respond to anything ever. And I mean nothing. I’m ok and constant, all the time.

Cheers

So, from dairy, you're getting about 90 grams of protein? To get to 170 g, you would need 80 grams of protein and you could reach that number eating 400 grams of lean red meat or 350 grams of skinless chicken breast. Both of these sources have less tryptophan than whey or milk.

The health of the population in general has gone down a lot. In the United States, almost 40 percent of the people( in 2015-2016) were obese. PUFA comsumption definitely had a very visible effect. And people nowadays are sicker than ever( depression, gut problems, allergies etc.), so they have reported bad effects, they just don't know what caused those bad effects, since the midia and the doctors keep making people confused about nutrition and lifestyle.

 

[LiveWire]

Your numbers are correct. However 400 grams of meat is way too much as is, not to mention the massive inconvenience of having to prepare it. That’s where I’m stuck with whey and its super easy and fast preparation.

 

[Motif]

whey gave me kidney stones so there is that......i wont go near it now.

Whow what? Could you elaborate on that ?

 

[Aaron]

Your numbers are correct. However 400 grams of meat is way too much as is, not to mention the massive inconvenience of having to prepare it. That’s where I’m stuck with whey and its super easy and fast preparation.

You can cube chicken breast and boil it for a few minutes with your potatoes, add some ketchup, and boom, easy 20 minute meal. Boiled chicken gets a bad rap but it's actually my favorite way to prepare chicken breast.

However, I still use a scoop of whey (and gelatin) every day for ethical reasons.

 

[LiveWire]

Come on guys...chicken? Peat hates chicken, if I recall correctly, for the same reasons he hates whey - tryptophan.

Once every ten days is what I recall him saying being the safe maximum.

 

[Aaron]

Come on guys...chicken? Peat hates chicken, if I recall for correctly for the same reasons he hates whey - tryptophan.

Once every ten days is what I recall him saying being the safe maximum.

Peat also likes eating whole pints of ice cream and packages of gummy candy.

 

[LiveWire]

Peat also likes eating whole pints of ice cream and packages of gummy candy.

That’s true. I get your point.

He also likes going up a hill but not down the hill. Now how the hell am I supposed to get off the freakin mountain? Roll?

 

[Aaron]

That’s true. I get your point.

He also likes going up a hill but not down the hill. Now how the hell am I supposed to get off the freakin mountain? Roll?

Yes. You must abide by everything Ray has ever said and nothing else.

 

[aquaman]

you could reach that number eating 400 grams of lean red meat .

Brisket has nearly 30g protein per 100g, so you’d need 270g brisket for 80grams

 

[aquaman]

Your numbers are correct. However 400 grams of meat is way too much as is, not to mention the massive inconvenience of having to prepare it. That’s where I’m stuck with whey and its super easy and fast preparation.

Try brisket. Cook 2 pounds in a big pot in 2.5 hours, lasts 3-4 days and it’s delicious, and has good collagen in it. Seems to be the highest protein cut. Only need small amounts with some added collagen broth for a big serving of protein. Also digests easily as it’s broken down by the slow cooking.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Brisket has nearly 30g protein per 100g, so you’d need 270g brisket for 80grams

I was thinking of ground meat with 10% fat when I wrote that. Also I like to measure the amount of protein before cooking( so I looked at how much protein 400 grams of raw beef would have, since the water content will vary according to the method used to prepare it, but the protein content will not). According to selfnutritiondata, (raw) beef brisket has almost 21 grams of protein per 100 grams. Maybe you were thinking about cooked brisket, which has almost 33 grams of protein per 100 grams.

 

[aquaman]

I was thinking of ground meat with 10% fat when I wrote that. Also I like to measure the amount of protein before cooking( so I looked at how much protein 400 grams of raw beef would have, since the water content will vary according to the method used to prepare it, but the protein content will not). According to selfnutritiondata, (raw) beef brisket has almost 21 grams of protein per 100 grams. Maybe you were thinking about cooked brisket, which has almost 33 grams of protein per 100 grams.

Yes, maybe. I looked at a few on MyFitnessPal, thought was raw weight.