When Inflammation Does Not Get Confirmed By Certain Markers of Inflammation

[yerrag]

No. Continual vitamin C intake is necessary (via food or whatever), but it doesn't have to be every day. I don't know what the half-life of it is. However as people get older gut absorption can decrease, so supplementation might be wise.

Guess I misunderstood you. Thanks.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Have you looked into the glutathione angle yet? It's supposedly the master antioxidant and is intimately associated with vitamin C.

 

[yerrag]

Have you looked into the glutathione angle yet? It's supposedly the master antioxidant and is intimately associated with vitamin C.

Oh yes. It is a master antioxidant and yes, very much associated with vitamin C.

Beyond that, it still comes down to understanding if the use of antioxidants is going to be beneficial for the situation. Since I don't think we fully understand the full interplay between oxidants and anti-oxidants in achieving a balance, we have to look at the context. If ROS action is needed to eliminate bacteria, for example, the use of antioxidants at an inappropriate moment could render the beneficial ROS from doing its job.

I have come to realize how little I know about the use of antioxidants so that it does more good than bad. We of course realize that it's not as simple as saying antioxidants are good and oxidants are bad. Ray Peat has talked about reductive stress sparingly, and in a very general manner that leaves me struggling to figure out an actual case involving reductive stress, as I really don't have a clue what reductive stress really is. But I can guess that too much intake of antioxidants could possibly lead to reductive stress.

So I'm kinda feeling once bitten twice shy about wantonly using antioxidants. I actually cringe when I hear of infommercials that hype up one antioxidant as being the best or the greatest of them all. Yes, if I were a beginner to health 101, I would quickly buy the product and later on learn the gotchas. But that is how we learn that often there is no fine print as you are the one to discover the fine print. So there is no such thing as "this is it, the answer I've been looking for. My search is over."

 

[Jam]

I would avoid supplementing with anti-oxidants, see for example Using Antioxidants Promotes ROS (free Radicals).

The priority should always be protecting against tissue destruction in chronic inflammation, and not trying to quench ROS (which as yerrag mentioned are required to destroy pathogens, and which can backfire, see above). This can be achieved by supplementing iodine/iodide, for example.

Iodide modulates protein damage induced by the inflammation-associated heme enzyme myeloperoxidase.

Iodide (I-), and especially iodine (I2), are described as being powerful anti-oxidants as they neutralize hydrogen peroxide in a two-step process, by converting it first to hypoiodous acid and then to water, thereby preventing formation of hydroxyl radicals. In contrast, hypochlorous acid is toxic to tissues.

Additionally, if a chronic infection is behind the chronic inflammation, it is actually much more useful to supplement with pro-oxidants instead of anti-oxidants.

Oxidizing agents such as various quinones, methylene blue, et al. are actually much more beneficial as they are greatly supportive of the redox cycle, aid host mitochondrial energy production by bypassing suppressed ETC complexes and raising the NAD+/NADH ratio, and directly and/or indirectly aid in the destruction of microbes.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I would avoid supplementing with anti-oxidants, see for example Using Antioxidants Promotes ROS (free Radicals).

The priority should always be protecting against tissue destruction in chronic inflammation, and not trying to quench ROS (which as yerrag mentioned are required to destroy pathogens, and which can backfire, see above). This can be achieved by supplementing iodine/iodide, for example.

Iodide modulates protein damage induced by the inflammation-associated heme enzyme myeloperoxidase.

Iodide (I-), and especially iodine (I2), are described as being powerful anti-oxidants as they neutralize hydrogen peroxide in a two-step process, by converting it first to hypoiodous acid and then to water, thereby preventing formation of hydroxyl radicals. In contrast, hypochlorous acid is toxic to tissues.

Additionally, if a chronic infection is behind the chronic inflammation, it is actually much more useful to supplement with pro-oxidants instead of anti-oxidants.

Oxidizing agents such as various quinones, methylene blue, et al. are actually much more beneficial as they are greatly supportive of the redox cycle, aid host mitochondrial energy production by bypassing suppressed ETC complexes and raising the NAD+/NADH ratio, and directly and/or indirectly aid in the destruction of microbes.

Has any of what you mentioned worked for yerrag? Vitamin C is obviously working because it raises albumin and lowers blood pressure. Why? Is it a vitamin C deficiency issue, or is that merely pointing to something else that xtra vitamin C helps to alleviate?

 

[yerrag]

I would avoid supplementing with anti-oxidants, see for example Using Antioxidants Promotes ROS (free Radicals).

The priority should always be protecting against tissue destruction in chronic inflammation, and not trying to quench ROS (which as yerrag mentioned are required to destroy pathogens, and which can backfire, see above). This can be achieved by supplementing iodine/iodide, for example.

Iodide modulates protein damage induced by the inflammation-associated heme enzyme myeloperoxidase.

Iodide (I-), and especially iodine (I2), are described as being powerful anti-oxidants as they neutralize hydrogen peroxide in a two-step process, by converting it first to hypoiodous acid and then to water, thereby preventing formation of hydroxyl radicals. In contrast, hypochlorous acid is toxic to tissues.

Additionally, if a chronic infection is behind the chronic inflammation, it is actually much more useful to supplement with pro-oxidants instead of anti-oxidants.,

Oxidizing agents such as various quinones, methylene blue, et al. are actually much more beneficial as they are greatly supportive of the redox cycle, aid host mitochondrial energy production by bypassing suppressed ETC complexes and raising the NAD+/NADH ratio, and directly and/or indirectly aid in the destruction of microbes.

Since I have keloids and temporal arteritis as well, I'm looking at this from a CGD (chronic granuloma disease) perspective. This involves some failure on NADPH oxidase to produce ROS in the respiratory burst of phagocytosis. Which leads to failure of neutrophils and macrophages to eat up pathogens. Since a total failure would lead me to have many diseases stemming from infection, such is not the case with me. But a failure to kill pathogens would lead the body to wall off the pathogen, and create cysts or tumors that wrap around the pathogen to keep it from spreading. This is likely the case with my temporal arteritis, of recent origins (2 years) and with my keloids (40 years +). This condition does not apply to all pathogens, but to a few.

This understanding may give me a better idea on why my neutrophils and macrophages are failing to eat up the immune complexes (consisting of a bacteria opsonized with an antibody) and to find ways of overcoming the failure. If there is failure on NADPH oxidase, then it is possible I would lack hydrogen peroxide to be used to produce ROS, and the iodine may not find use as HOI- for use in phagocytosis. However, the iodine can still be helpful in fighting periodontal infections.

So, I'll have to look deeper into this before proceeding further. Meanwhile, it may be the case that I would need some supplementation with anti-oxidants to mitigate the effects of inflammation. This leads me to wonder that if NADPH oxidase is the problem, would the oxidative stress still be coming from spillover ROS from phagocytosis, or would the oxidative stress be solely coming from inflammation from inflammatory cytokines?

If there is no spillover ROS from phagocytosis, would there still be oxidative stress coming solely from inflammtory cytokines?

 

[yerrag]

Has any of what you mentioned worked for yerrag? Vitamin C is obviously working because it raises albumin and lowers blood pressure. Why? Is it a vitamin C deficiency issue, or is that merely pointing to something else that xtra vitamin C helps to alleviate?

The vitamin C has helped. I have been able to sleep better the past 2 nights, waking up twice only instead of 4 times, and when I wake up I would take 500mg vitamin C each time. And during the day, I would find time on empty stomach to take 500mg each time, as any more would just be excreted out.

I have to try Astaxanthin as well, as the study shows it very effective for singlet oxygen, which is part of the ROS used in phagocytosis. I've used Astaxanthin before, but not for me, but for my koi, as it has improved the saturation of their red coloration. Now, I have to try it for myself.

Hopefully, it would be a good band-aid, until I come up with a solution to the root cause.

 

[Jam]

The vitamin C has helped. I have been able to sleep better the past 2 nights, waking up twice only instead of 4 times, and when I wake up I would take 500mg vitamin C each time. And during the day, I would find time on empty stomach to take 500mg each time, as any more would just be excreted out.

I have to try Astaxanthin as well, as the study shows it very effective for singlet oxygen, which is part of the ROS used in phagocytosis. I've used Astaxanthin before, but not for me, but for my koi, as it has improved the saturation of their red coloration. Now, I have to try it for myself.

Hopefully, it would be a good band-aid, until I come up with a solution to the root cause.

I think it would be definitely worth trying the methylene blue (ca. 20mg) + SSKI + red light combo.

(The red light may not even be necessary, sunlight should be enough. Just be careful not to overdo it)

 

[Jam]

Has any of what you mentioned worked for yerrag? Vitamin C is obviously working because it raises albumin and lowers blood pressure. Why? Is it a vitamin C deficiency issue, or is that merely pointing to something else that xtra vitamin C helps to alleviate?

@yerrag can correct me, but the SSKI helped/is helping his periodontal disease, at least. It halted the progression of mine. I believe MB has also pushed him in the right direction.

 

[yerrag]

I think it would be definitely worth trying the methylene blue (ca. 20mg) + SSKI + red light combo.

(The red light may not even be necessary, sunlight should be enough. Just be careful not to overdo it)

This looks like a winner to me. I may add DMSO to improve absorption of the mb.

@yerrag can correct me, but the SSKI helped/is helping his periodontal disease, at least. It halted the progression of mine. I believe MB has also pushed him in the right direction.

The SSKI has helped. With MB and red light or sunlight even, I'm hoping to get this going soon. Will see how it goes without the vitamin C or astaxanthin. If it doesn't work, I can fall back on some antioxidants. Vitamin C or astaxanthin. I've been eating lots of gelatin for glutathione, and I may add some NAC to support glutathione as well. The only thing I need to order is astaxanthin.

 

[yerrag]

@Jam @Perry Staltic Slept so soundly last night, without ever waking up to pee. I did not expect this, but this is a breakthrough for me.

I took 6.4mb MB with DMSO (to get a 10% DMSO mix- to increase tissue absorption) together with 150mg SSKI (6 drops). The rest of the day I was up and about so it wasn't until the evening that 1 took 500mg Ascorbic Acid and went to bed without a meal. I was tired also. The reason I didn't take the mb+sski that night was because it further increased my BP and at the same time it lowered my perfusion index (PI)*.

To my surprise, I did not wake up to pee and had the most restful sleep in a while. I don't if the fast helped, but it may have. But my thinking now is that I should just get a large dose of mb** (with SSKI) in the morning, and then throughout the rest of the day just take AA in 500mg AA powder (in empty stomach) whenever I get the chance (hard to stick to a sked).

For now, that is what I will stick with, although the MB/SSKI combo could be replaced by another antibacterial combo that is appropriate. The choice of antibacterial is based on the ability to kill the catalase-positive bacteria, which I believe to be aggregibacter actinomycentemcomitans in the media of my blood vessels (which now I believe to be systemic, and not confined to my kidneys' glomerular capillaries), such that it the condition also finds expression as temporal arteritis. I have been led into thinking this is a kidney issue only because I am excreting some albumin in my urine, and also because my serum creatinine is high***

The ascorbic acid can also be replaced by or complemented with by another antioxidant such as astaxanthin and NAC.

To make a long story short, the nighttime urination riddle I've been dealing with may just be a thing of the past. I think that when there is bacterial infection, water is being generated as the immune system attempts to get rid of the bacteria. When it is successful, water is produced. When it isn't, water is produced as well. When drugs are taken to eliminate or reduce the bacteria, water is generated as well. In all these, I think it's because redox reaction is going on, and very often water is the product of redox reaction.

I cannot explain everything yet though. I know the catalase-positive bacteria is by itself generating a lot of water as catalase converts hydrogen peroxide to water as it blunts the creation of ROS needed for effective phagocytosis. That dosing high enough MB**** (perhaps with SSKI helping- not sure) is effectively killing the bacteria (or neutralizing it) and making it possible for effective phagocytosis to occur, and if this is the case, and if I continue with the treatment, I would be eliminating the root cause of my high blood pressure. Although high blood pressure is merely the outward expression of something deeper percolating inside my tissues, which is chronic inflammation coming from unresolved attempts by neutrophils and macrophages to eliminate bacteria and immune complexes, and due to this, chronic oxidative stresses is happening. Luckily for me, I have enough antioxidants stores with my body responding well to it. That albumin is being used as an antioxidant is not a bad thing. It is better to lose the albumin that see my tissues destroyed by oxidative stress. And because albumin is being used, my blood pressure is higher to compensate for the low blood volume resulting from albumin loss.

*I've began to use the PI together with my heart rate. Heart rate alone is an inadequate proxy for heart pumping quality as it coud be increased due to poor pumping effiiency, with the higher heart rate used to compensate for an inefficient pump. The PI measure the ratio of pusatile flow as a ratio of total blood flow. It is an indication of how much the heart pump is contributing to total blood flow (as blood flow is not totally dependent on the heart). The higher the PI, the better. It is the quantitative version of feeling the pulse, where an herbal doctor can determine the strength and consistency of the strength of the pulse, something which heart rate measurement does not take into account.

**the mb has some dmso so it's more like mb in 10%dmso to increase absorption into tissues

***but my creatinine can appear to be high by virtue of having low blood volume - given the calculation for serum creatinine is really total serum creatinine in blood in the body over total blood volume). If blood volume is low, serum creatinine readings would be high even if total serum creatinine is just normal.

****Methylene blue was been being used long ago as a treatment for UTI. It is very effective and bacteria does not gain resistance to it. But it came into disuse after pharma discovered other ways to deal with UTI, MB is effective and cheap and gets added to the list of discontinued substances whose only defining feature is that if was too effective and too low in cost. Starpharm currently has a product called Uribel which incorporates methylene blue in its formulation. From it, I could see methylene taken in 4 x 10mg doses.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Slept so soundly last night, without ever waking up to pee. I did not expect this, but this is a breakthrough for me.

Really pleased to hear that.

 

[yerrag]

@ecstatichamster The case that high blood pressure is not causing kidney damage is getting stronger, just as the case that taking bp medication destroys tissues and organs gets stronger. As almost everyone except me takes bp medication, everyone else is seeing a 100% correlation of inflammation to tissue damage. This is why my thread title generates little interest as I'm the only one who wonders why inflammation markers don't show any sign of inflammation, while there is actual inflammation going on. Thanks for supporting my thinking that high blood pressure helps the body cope in feeding the tissues and organs adequately with nutrients and with transporting metabolic wastes from the tissues.

 

[Jam]

Good news @yerrag!

Since you're already taking both ascorbic acid and MB separately, have you tried combining them (in solution) so that you're getting the oxidized form of ascorbic acid (DHAA)? (I think you're already familiar with this concept, as you posted in the relevant thread).

 

[yerrag]

Good news @yerrag!

Since you're already taking both ascorbic acid and MB separately, have you tried combining them (in solution) so that you're getting the oxidized form of ascorbic acid (DHAA)? (I think you're already familiar with this concept, as you posted in the relevant thread).

Good approach to enabling further potency to the ascorbic acid and thanks for helping me thru this.

I thought about it and there could be a catch. I'm just not sure as the effect of the DHAA getting inside the cell would have the effect of increasing glutathione in the cell membranes to protect from tissue destruction. Aside from my not having an issue with tissue destruction, my problem is extracellular, with the inflammation coming from cytokines directed towards immune complexes that are located in the media portion of the endothelial lining. And the oxidative stress is interstitial and is being neutralized by the body's primary antioxidant system. I would need the ascorbic acid to be used extracellularly as an antioxidant, to lessen the use of albumin as an antioxidant.

However, I am not seeing BP go down but there may be a lag. However, I am hopeful because less urination is a good sign, and the urine foam is much much less, and the foam is much, much larger. I think thst if I can keep the foam from being beer frothy, it likely means I'm not using my serum albumin anymore as an antioxidant.

I'm also hoping that less urination means two things-there is less bacteria making catalase to turn hydrogen peroxide into water (because mb is killing it), and that the neutrophils are able to phagocytize the immune complexes (as they now have a good supply of hydrogen peroxide to make ROS), and oh, yes a third one-the MPO is making HOI- instead of HOCl- such that the spillover ROS is gentler, and requiring less antioxidant action.

Unfortunately, my supply of MB would last only 3 days. I think it would take a much longer time to see the effect in lower blood pressure. The MB is raising metabolism and this has the effect of raising blood pressure. So BP is increasing as it takes time for my blood volume to build back.

But I'll have to wait for my new supply of MB to come to validate this approach. Since my use of MB is much more in quantity and the treatment duration would be extended, I'm glad to get my hands on better quality mb. The impurities are magnitudes lesser than my current mb, and this would minimize any untoward side effects.

As I said, this issue is no longer a kidney issue. It is a systemic vascular issue, so it would take some time to resolve given how extensive the vascular system is. I'm hoping I'm wrong though, as I want some immediate results! I'm getting impatient.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Something just occurred to me that I had forgotten. I don't know how much sugar you eat, but sugar competes with vitamin C for absorption. So eating a lot of sugar can deplete vitamin C by preventing its absorption. They both use the same transporter protein which prefers glucose.

 

[yerrag]

Something just occurred to me that I had forgotten. I don't know how much sugar you eat, but sugar competes with vitamin C for absorption. So eating a lot of sugar can deplete vitamin C by preventing its absorption. They both use the same transporter protein which prefers glucose.

That's true. That's why I take the vitamin C on empty stomach.

 

[Perry Staltic]

That's true. That's why I take the vitamin C on empty stomach.

It also competes after absorption preventing vitamin C from entering cells.

 

[Perry Staltic]

What's your white blood cell count like?

 

[ecstatichamster]

@ecstatichamster The case that high blood pressure is not causing kidney damage is getting stronger, just as the case that taking bp medication destroys tissues and organs gets stronger. As almost everyone except me takes bp medication, everyone else is seeing a 100% correlation of inflammation to tissue damage. This is why my thread title generates little interest as I'm the only one who wonders why inflammation markers don't show any sign of inflammation, while there is actual inflammation going on. Thanks for supporting my thinking that high blood pressure helps the body cope in feeding the tissues and organs adequately with nutrients and with transporting metabolic wastes from the tissues.

blood pressure is a proxy for health to doctors who are schills for Big pharma.

However nobody has done good studies that show blood pressure medication lowers mortality all cause.

They have shown that medications can modestly lower mortality from heart attacks and strokes.

people with high blood pressure generally are very sick with low metabolisms stuck in what Dr. Paet calls slime metabolism, glycolysis in the presence of low oxygen begetting high lactic acid.

So studies done on these sick people may show some benefit of blood pressure medications but it really doesn’t mean anything to healthy people.