When (if Ever) Should A Women Use DHEA And Pregnenolone?

cyclops

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I know women can benefit from progesterone, but when (if ever) should they consider supplementing with the other two "youth hormones" Peat speaks highly of?
 

wintagal

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I use both because of secondary hypoadrenalism. Also, post-menopausal women can get benefits from them. DHEA can strengthen bones.
 
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Menopausal women can benefit by three or 4 mg of DHEA per day to raise their testosterone levels. It also helps prevent or reverse vaginal atrophy
 

oldhaghacks

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I take 20 mg. of DHEA every three days and so far, so good with no side effects however I've only been on it about a month. I think it helps with energy levels and I hope that it raises my estrogen levels some. I have estrogen dominance however blood serum estrogen levels were low as were DHEA. I also use progesterone cream and take Vitex in the am.
 

tomisonbottom

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I take 20 mg. of DHEA every three days and so far, so good with no side effects however I've only been on it about a month. I think it helps with energy levels and I hope that it raises my estrogen levels some. I have estrogen dominance however blood serum estrogen levels were low as were DHEA. I also use progesterone cream and take Vitex in the am.

Have you read ray's work on estrogen? Aging, estrogen, and progesterone

Estrogen causes cancer, inflammation and degeneration, and almost everything that goes wrong with the body involves estrogen dominance.

I can't see any reason why you'd want to raise it.

He recommends at least a 20:1 ratio of progesterone to estrogen blood levels, so if anything you'd need to reduce estrogen, not raise it.
 

oldhaghacks

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Have you read ray's work on estrogen? Aging, estrogen, and progesterone

Estrogen causes cancer, inflammation and degeneration, and almost everything that goes wrong with the body involves estrogen dominance.

I can't see any reason why you'd want to raise it.

He recommends at least a 20:1 ratio of progesterone to estrogen blood levels, so if anything you'd need to reduce estrogen, not raise it.

I disagree that women should not try and raise estrogen because estrogen can be protective but I do agree with you on the ratio to progesterone. DHEA can raise both and here is a link to a study.
DHEA Supplements and Hormone Levels

I would never take DHEA without taking DIM and calcium D Glucarate and Vitex. I'm doing my own N 0f 1 to find the perfect dose of each of these supplements and then I can report back on how these combos can potentially help women in similar situations as mine.
 

tomisonbottom

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I disagree that women should not try and raise estrogen because estrogen can be protective but I do agree with you on the ratio to progesterone. DHEA can raise both and here is a link to a study.
DHEA Supplements and Hormone Levels

I would never take DHEA without taking DIM and calcium D Glucarate and Vitex. I'm doing my own N 0f 1 to find the perfect dose of each of these supplements and then I can report back on how these combos can potentially help women in similar situations as mine.

All the stress hormones including estrogen can be protective in an acute emergency, but estrogen shouldn't be elevated chronically. It also increases with aging and all disease.

Highly suggest you read Ray's work. It is the opposite of what most mainstream info will tell you; i.e., that estrogen is helpful in any way.
 

sweetpeat

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Maybe that's the minimum?
Could be. It's a bit confusing. The formula @haidut gave me was a way to calculate tissue levels so maybe that makes a difference too.
So, let's say I have an estrogen level of 12.8 pg/mL (which I do). Then progesterone should be 128? Or is conversion to ng/mL needed? Which would make desirable progesterone level .128 ng/mL. Which seems more reasonable. I think.
Anyone know if I'm calculating this correctly? @Blossom
 

sweetpeat

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No, wait. That's only 10x. If estrogen is 12.8 then 12.8 x 100=1280! Converting would then give 1.28 ng/mL for progesterone. Using haidut's formula would give a progesterone level of about .34 I think.
 

oldhaghacks

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All the stress hormones including estrogen can be protective in an acute emergency, but estrogen shouldn't be elevated chronically. It also increases with aging and all disease.

Highly suggest you read Ray's work. It is the opposite of what most mainstream info will tell you; i.e., that estrogen is helpful in any way.

Tomisonbottom,

I never listen take the advice of anyone, including Ray Peat and especially anything that is mainstream without very thorough investigation. Why do you think I'm posting on this subject? Because I read one thing on the internet and followed that advice? LOL! Are you a man or woman? I am a woman and I have experienced first hand the horrors of menopause. I have gone days without sleep. You should know that estrogen levels drop during menopause and it the significant drop of that along with progesterone that causes the hot flashes, the insomnia, the mood swings, weight gain. Raising estrogen along with progesterone and DHEA to can restore balance and get rid of some of the symptoms. Of course you need to know about 2-hydroxylation and 16-hydroxylation. Every one is different and I'm telling you what has worked for me. I was able to bring my period back and feel normal again. Women DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and don't be afraid to experiment and get regular testing and journal about your experience and the supplements that you're taking.
 
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Lilly

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Tomisonbottom,

I never listen take the advice of anyone, including Ray Peat and especially anything that is mainstream without very thorough investigation. Why do you think I'm posting on this subject? Because I read one thing on the internet and followed that advice? LOL! Are you a man or woman? I am a woman and I have experienced first hand the horrors of menopause. I have gone days without sleep. You should know that estrogen levels drop during menopause and it the significant drop of that along with progesterone that causes the hot flashes, the insomnia, the mood swings, weight gain. Raising estrogen along with progesterone and DHEA to can restore balance and get rid of some of the symptoms. Of course you need to know about 2-hydroxylation and 16-hydroxylation. Every one is different and I'm telling you what has worked for me. I was able to bring my period back and feel normal again. Women DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and don't be afraid to experiment and get regular testing and journal about your experience and the supplements that you're taking.
It is interesting what you say about bringing the period back. Have you succeeded this only by adding DHEA ?
 

tomisonbottom

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Tomisonbottom,

I never listen take the advice of anyone, including Ray Peat and especially anything that is mainstream without very thorough investigation. Why do you think I'm posting on this subject? Because I read one thing on the internet and followed that advice? LOL! Are you a man or woman? I am a woman and I have experienced first hand the horrors of menopause. I have gone days without sleep. You should know that estrogen levels drop during menopause and it the significant drop of that along with progesterone that causes the hot flashes, the insomnia, the mood swings, weight gain. Raising estrogen along with progesterone and DHEA to can restore balance and get rid of some of the symptoms. Of course you need to know about 2-hydroxylation and 16-hydroxylation. Every one is different and I'm telling you what has worked for me. I was able to bring my period back and feel normal again. Women DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and don't be afraid to experiment and get regular testing and journal about your experience and the supplements that you're taking.

No, need to take offense, or make assumptions. I was trying to be helpful, because I've experienced the lifelong horrors of estrogen myself (rheumatoid arthritis, hypoglycemia, anxiety, migraines, etc) which I've totally eliminated by implementing Ray's ideas.

And yes, I'm a women, and I've been doing my own research for years, and journaling and getting my own lab work too. Definitely agree that everyone needs to be a critical thinker and do their research. Estrogen has made my life hell; so that's where I'm coming from. Progesterone and DHEA can indeed be very helpful. I just get worried when someone says they have estrogen dominance and are still trying to raise it.

I only suggested you read Ray's work because you're on the Ray Peat forum, and anyone familiar with Ray's work knows estrogen dominance is never a good thing, and raising estrogen in that situation would never be recommended.
So, thought maybe you hadn't read his articles, but I leave you to your own conclusions.
 

HDD

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You should know that estrogen levels drop during menopause and it the significant drop of that along with progesterone that causes the hot flashes, the insomnia, the mood swings, weight gain.

Here are a few quotes from just one of Ray Peat’s articles. There are a lot of misconceptions regarding estrogen and progesterone. These misconceptions have been promoted by the estrogen industry.
Hot flashes, energy, and aging
“While the biological changes occurring at menopause and during hot flashes are very similar to some of the direct actions of estrogen, and although the menopause itself is the result of prolonged exposure to estrogen, very large doses of estrogen can, in many women (as well as in morphine addicted rats), stop the flushing. In some of the published animal experiments, effective doses of estrogen were about 2000 times normal, and in some human studies, the dose was 30 times normal. By blocking the production of heat, the estrogen treatments might be creating conditions similar to those in Simpkin's cooler old rats, which failed to flush during morphine withdrawal. Menopausal estrogen treatment is known to lower temperature (Brooks, et al., 1994).”

“Once the ideologically based doctrine of menopause as estrogen deficiency is discarded, it's possible to see its features as clues to the ways in which "stress" contributes to the age-related degeneration of the various systems of the body--not just the reproductive system, but also the immune system, the nutritive, growth, and repair processes, and the motivational, emotional, and cognitive processes of the nervous systems. The changes around menopause aren't the same for all women, but the ways in which they vary can be understood in terms of the basic biological principles of energy and adaptation that are universal.”

“At menopause, when the ovary fails to produce the cyclic progesterone, all of these processes of estrogen inactivation fail. In the absence of progesterone, cortisol becomes more active, increasing aromatase activity, which now becomes chronic and progressive. The decrease of progesterone causes many other changes, including the increased conversion of polyunsaturated fatty acids to prostaglandins, and the formation of nitric oxide, all of which contribute to the tendency to flush.”

I’ve linked a transcript to an interview that includes more on estrogen in menopause you might find interesting.
Hot Flashes, Night Sweats, The Relationship To Stress, KMUD Herb Doctors , 2012

How can one be estrogen dominant but have low estrogen levels on blood test? Sounds confusing.

When progesterone is low, estrogen stays in the cells, and true estrogen levels will not be reflected in blood work. Progesterone knocks estrogen out of the cells to circulate and the liver should eliminate.
 

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