When can babies have cow's or goats milk as main form of calories?

giacomo

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I have a 7 month old girl. My wife had quite a traumatic birth (forceps) and our baby initially had jaundice so we were told we had to give her formula to prevent the jaundice getting worse. So my wife's supply never properly came in.

We are currently weening but it doesn't look like too much of the food we are feeding is being eaten (more played with, tasted and spat out). So the majority of her calories are still coming from formula.

It's really difficult to find any non-awful formula. The current formula we have has 9g sat fat to 19g unsat fat per 100g!

So my question is how quickly can we make goats or cows milk the main source of calories and get rid of the awful formula? The google consensus seems to be around 12 months but this answer is no doubt paid for by the formula companies. I think the top answer on google actually says if you switch to cow or goat milk you risk them not getting enough iron. This sounds very anti-peat and suspect to me.

Or if people think continuing with formula is still best and know any decent formula brands please let me know. We're in the UK, which is also why I'm considering goats milk more than cows milk as I think all of the cow milk here is A1
 

CO2 Retainer

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now
let us rephrase it: Why would now be the time for formula but not for milk? I bet goats milk is more similar to breast milk than formula :whistle
 

tankasnowgod

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Why would now be the time for formula but not for milk? I bet goats milk is more similar to breast milk than formula :whistle

Right? Milk, regardless of the animal it came from, it's pretty nutritious all the way around. In Bernarr MacFadden's book "The Miracle of Milk," he tells of adults who thrived using milk alone as food. I don't know why an infant would be any different.

You can find tons of examples of animals nursing babies of other species.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55iKVVrqkf4


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K83BKNxgg7w


If you're ready to feed you baby industrial waste like formula, I don't know why would hesitate to feed your baby a legitimate superfood like milk, which was designed for infants by the creator, and not some corporate fiction only concerned with profit.
 

Nebula

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Cow and goats milk are too high in casein for infants to digest and for their kidneys to assimilate. Standard recommendation is not until one year old. Although my mom and her siblings were fed evaporated milk in the late 1950’s. The protein probably needs to be broken down more and watered down to closer match human breast milk. Someone should ask Peat what he thinks. Russians traditionally at one point would give diluted kefir to infants after 4 months.
 

CO2 Retainer

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Cow and goats milk are too high in casein for infants to digest and for their kidneys to assimilate. Standard recommendation is not until one year old. Although my mom and her siblings were fed evaporated milk in the late 1950’s. The protein probably needs to be broken down more. Someone should ask Peat what he thinks. Russians traditionally at one point would give diluted kefir to infants after 4 months.
You can curdle the milk with lemon juice and sieve the casein if neccessary. But I dont know how well the milk still tastes then


@giacomo as for iron, milk is low iron indeed. Some tribes used to, and some still do (Masaai etc.), drink flesh blood of young cows. I do not think it is something you consider though haha :grin
Some of the stonefruits like dates, peaches should have somewhat high iron. Spinach too. All depends on what your baby likes or can actually chew and stomach.
Liverwurst could be an option as well, can be chewed with the gums even. But I think the high vitamin A content could be a nuiscance

prune compote looks tasty to me at least but maybe its Sorbitol could be a problem.
like this:
1627076092537.png
or this
1627076216454.png
 
Last edited:

TradClare

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We adopted our infants and made a simple formula with goats milk. At 7 months, you are almost to the point where straight goat milk would be fine because food is starting to come in. Maybe add an infant multi and offer water also. Goat milk is slightly lower in folate than human milk and slightly higher in protein and fat. They say to wait on cow milk until at least a year. It is harder to digest. That said, I used some really good raw cow milk we got while traveling with a 10 month old and he was fine. Sometimes it depends on the baby's constitution
 

TradClare

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Found my old recipe! 2 cups goat milk, 1 cup pure water, 1.5 Tablespoons lactose. This is the basic ratio. Add a daily infant vitamin to supply folate and other nutrients. I remember ordering lactose sugar from iherb. Lactose is important for baby development, though in a pinch use good sugar (ie you want to start today and lactose is on order) Oh my goodness, that Weston Price formula is a pain to make! Because cow's milk needs much more tinkering. Plus, the idea of all those ingredients together is really nauseating.
 

scrubolio

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FWIW i emailed RP about some issues my kids was having and his reply:

Vaccines and baby formula have probably been the main factors in the huge increase in allergies in the last 40 years—at least 40 percent of kids now have allergies. Increased parathyroid hormone, resulting from low intake of calcium and/or vitamin D, increases sensitivies to irritants, and activates mast cells, while interfering with thyroid hormone function. It’s good to check her temperature. A supplement should be based on both body weight and its effects on temperature and pulse rate. A blood test, including vitamin D, could be helpful.


Vaccine components that may cause allergic reactions include gelatin or egg protein, and rarely, yeast, latex (contained in vial stoppers or syringe plungers), neomycin and thimerosal.

Pediatr Dermatol. Jan-Feb 2016;33(1):115-6.
Parathyroid Hormone: An Overlooked Variable in Atopic Dermatitis and Vitamin D Research
Kleyton de Carvalho Mesquita, Ana Carolina de Souza Machado Igreja 3 , Izelda Maria Carvalho Costa

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2017 Dec 1;102(12):4417-4420.
Parathyroid Hormone-Related Protein-Induced Hypercalcemia of Pregnancy Successfully Reversed by a Dopamine Agonist
Elizabeth M Winter 1 , Natasha M Appelman-Dijkstra 1
Context: Parathyroid hormone-related protein (PTH-rP)-induced hypercalcemia or pseudophyperparathyroidism during pregnancy is a condition that can result in serious fetal and maternal complications. Among others, breast tissue might be the cause of this PTH-rP production, in which case medical treatment is possible, as we describe in this case.
Setting: A 32-year-old woman presented in the 15th week of pregnancy with massive enlargement of breasts and abdominal pain due to severe hypercalcemia, hypercalciuria, and suppressed PTH. Hematological and solid malignancy were excluded. PTH-rP was found to be fourfold to eightfold increased, which is pathological even for pregnancy term. PTH-rP is produced in mammarian tissue as well as in placental tissue, in reaction to prolactin receptor activation. Prolactin hypersensitivity of breast tissue can cause excessive PTH-rP production during pregnancy.
Intervention: Dopamine agonists were applied to decrease prolactin.
Results: Calcium levels normalized, and PTH-rP levels became undetectable with bromocriptin treatment. A full-term healthy baby was born without disorders of calcium homeostasis, neither directly after birth nor 2 years after follow-up. After delivery, dopamine agonists could be tapered without recurrence of hypercalcemia.
Conclusion: Pseudohyperparathyroidism of pregnancy was caused by increased sensitivity of mammarian tissue for prolactin, which could be treated medically, preventing emergency mastectomy.

Biochim Biophys Acta. 2016 Jun;1863(6 Pt B):1398-407.
doi: 10.1016/j.bbamcr.2015.11.017. Epub 2015 Nov 30.
The calcium-sensing receptor and the hallmarks of cancer
Samawansha Tennakoon 1 , Abhishek Aggarwal 2 , Enikö Kállay 3
The calcium-sensing receptor (CaSR) plays a pivotal role in systemic calcium metabolism by regulating parathyroid hormone secretion and urinary calcium excretion. The CaSR is ubiquitously expressed, implying a wide range of functions regulated by this receptor. Abnormal CaSR function affects the development of both calciotropic disorders such as hyperparathyroidism, and non-calciotropic disorders such as cardiovascular disease and cancer, which are the leading causes of mortality worldwide. The CaSR is able to bind a plethora of ligands; it interacts with multiple G protein subtypes, and regulates highly divergent downstream signalling pathways, depending on the cellular context. The CaSR is a key regulator for such diverse processes as hormone secretion, gene expression, inflammation, proliferation, differentiation, and apoptosis. Due to this pleiotropy, the CaSR is able to regulate cell fate and is implicated in the development of many types of benign or malignant tumours of the breast, prostate, parathyroid, and colon. In cancer, the CaSR appears to have paradoxical roles, and depending on the tissue involved, it is able to prevent or promote tumour growth. In tissues like the parathyroid or colon, the CaSR inhibits proliferation and induces terminal differentiation of the cells. Therefore, loss of the receptor, as seen in colorectal or parathyroid tumours, confers malignant potential, suggestive of a tumour suppressor role. In contrast, in prostate and breast tumours the expression of the CaSR is increased and it seems that it favours metastasis to the bone, acting as an oncogene. Deciphering the molecular mechanism driving the CaSR in the different tissues could lead to development of new allosteric drug compounds that selectively target the CaSR and have therapeutic potential for cancer. This article is part of a Special Issue entitled: Calcium and Cell Fate. Guest Editors: Jacques Haiech, Claus Heizmann, Joachim Krebs, Thierry Capiod and Olivier Mignen.

Pain. 2015 Sep;156(9):1620-1636.
Induction of thermal and mechanical hypersensitivity by parathyroid hormone-related peptide through upregulation of TRPV1 function and trafficking
Aaron D Mickle, Andrew J Shepherd, Lipin Loo, Durga P Mohapatra
The neurobiological mechanisms underlying chronic pain associated with cancers are not well understood. It has been hypothesized that factors specifically elevated in the tumor microenvironment sensitize adjacent nociceptive afferents. We show that parathyroid hormone-related peptide (PTHrP), which is found at elevated levels in the tumor microenvironment of advanced breast and prostate cancers, is a critical modulator of sensory neurons. Intraplantar injection of PTHrP led to the development of thermal and mechanical hypersensitivity in both male and female mice, which were absent in mice lacking functional transient receptor potential vanilloid-1 (TRPV1). The PTHrP treatment of cultured mouse sensory neurons enhanced action potential firing, and increased TRPV1 activation, which was dependent on protein kinase C (PKC) activity. Parathyroid hormone-related peptide induced robust potentiation of TRPV1 activation and enhancement of neuronal firing at mild acidic pH that is relevant to acidic tumor microenvironment. We also observed an increase in plasma membrane TRPV1 protein levels after exposure to PTHrP, leading to upregulation in the proportion of TRPV1-responsive neurons, which was dependent on the activity of PKC and Src kinases. Furthermore, co-injection of PKC or Src inhibitors attenuated PTHrP-induced thermal but not mechanical hypersensitivity. Altogether, our results suggest that PTHrP and mild acidic conditions could induce constitutive pathological activation of sensory neurons through upregulation of TRPV1 function and trafficking, which could serve as a mechanism for peripheral sensitization of nociceptive afferents in the tumor microenvironment.

Endocrinology. 1962 Oct;71:554-8.
Sensitization to calciphylaxis by endogenous parathyroid hormone
H SELYE, G GABBIANI, R STREBEL

Acta Clin Belg. 2020 May 22;1-6.
Parathormone, bone alkaline phosphatase and 25-hydroxyvitamin D status in a large cohort of 1200 children and teenagers
Aurélie Ladang 1 , Olivier Rousselle 1 , Loreen Huyghebaert 1 , Anne-Catherine Bekaert 1 , Stéphanie Kovacs 1 , Caroline Le Goff 1 , Etienne Cavalier 1
Objectives: 25-Hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D), parathyroid hormone (PTH) and bone alkaline phosphatase (BALP) are biomarkers of calcium/phosphate metabolism and bone turnover. Although vitamin D deficiency is a well-known cause of secondary hyperparathyroidism, few studies have considered vitamin D status when establishing reference ranges. In this study, we report PTH levels according to the vitamin D status and BALP levels in a large cohort of 1200 children. Additionally, we provide PTH pediatric reference values according to 25(OH)D status as well as BALP pediatric reference ranges.
Methods: Serum samples from 1200 children (equally distributed from 5 months to 20 years old) who underwent blood sampling for allergy exploration were used to quantify 25(OH)D, PTH and BALP.
Results: The percentage of vitamin D deficient children (<20 ng/ml) progressively increased during childhood starting from 7% in the 0 to 2 year-old subgroup to a mean of at least 50% among teenagers. PTH levels inversely mirrored 25(OH)D concentrations for all age and gender subgroups, and 25(OH)D deficient subgroups presented higher PTH levels than their non-deficient counterparts. In the non-deficient 25(OH)D population, PTH levels were the highest at 11 years old for girls and 14 years old for boys. BALP results were slightly increased during childhood and showed a constant decrease during teenage years starting from 12 years old for girls and 14 years old for boys.
Conclusion: Our results highlight the inverse relationship between PTH and 25(OH)D in children and the need for a well characterized 25(OH)D population to establish pediatric reference ranges for PTH.

Biochem Pharmacol. 1983 Jan 15;32(2):355-60.
Induction of mast cell secretion by parathormone
N D Tsakalos, T C Theoharides, S K Kops, P W Askenase
The biologically active fragment of human parathormone (PTH) and intact bovine PTH were found to induce secretion of both serotonin and histamine from rat peritoneal mast cells in vitro. Release of serotonin and histamine was demonstrated with 25 units/ml PTH or higher. This level is within the higher limits of the elevated PTH levels found in advanced uremia. Mast cell secretion by PTH was dose, time and energy dependent and was not cytotoxic. Although mast cell activation was independent of extracellular calcium, it required intracellular calcium, thus resembling the action of certain other peptide secretagogues. Intradermal injection of PTH induced immediate increases in vascular permeability suggesting that PTH could induce mast cell secretion in vivo. Light and electron microscopic observations confirmed mast cell degranulation by exocytosis. These results demonstrate that elevated levels of PTH can induce mast cell secretion in vitro and in vivo and suggest a possible role for mast cells in the pathophysiology of non-allergic disease states.

Pediatric Dermatology Volume33, Issue1 January/February 2016 Pages 115-116
Parathyroid Hormone: An Overlooked Variable in Atopic Dermatitis and Vitamin D Research
Kleyton de Carvalho Mesquita M.D., Ph.D., Ana Carolina de Souza Machado Igreja M.D., Izelda Maria Carvalho Costa M.D., Ph.D.
 

boris

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The current formula we have has 9g sat fat to 19g unsat fat per 100g!

Probably best to stop poisoning your child now.

It's not even just the PUFAs but the dozens of different powders with tons of contaminants and excipients in the formula. Even a single commercial vitamin can be enough to disturb someones body.
 

giacomo

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Found my old recipe! 2 cups goat milk, 1 cup pure water, 1.5 Tablespoons lactose. This is the basic ratio. Add a daily infant vitamin to supply folate and other nutrients. I remember ordering lactose sugar from iherb. Lactose is important for baby development, though in a pinch use good sugar (ie you want to start today and lactose is on order) Oh my goodness, that Weston Price formula is a pain to make! Because cow's milk needs much more tinkering. Plus, the idea of all those ingredients together is really nauseating.
Thanks for this. Do you think you still run the risk here of being too much casein to digest?

@Nebula would be interested if you think casein would be an issue here as well
 

giacomo

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Probably best to stop poisoning your child now.

It's not even just the PUFAs but the dozens of different powders with tons of contaminants and excipients in the formula. Even a single commercial vitamin can be enough to disturb someones body.
Do you have any helpful suggestions? Or able to debunk the iron or casein issue mentioned above? Or thoughts on the Weston Price recipe? Or just commenting to confirm I'm poisoning my child without having enough of an understanding of the topic to explain why cow, goat or the weston price recipe are better alternatives
 

giacomo

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If you're ready to feed you baby industrial waste like formula, I don't know why would hesitate to feed your baby a legitimate superfood like milk, which was designed for infants by the creator, and not some corporate fiction only concerned with profit.
Cow and goats milk are too high in casein for infants to digest and for their kidneys to assimilate. Standard recommendation is not until one year old. Although my mom and her siblings were fed evaporated milk in the late 1950’s. The protein probably needs to be broken down more and watered down to closer match human breast milk. Someone should ask Peat what he thinks. Russians traditionally at one point would give diluted kefir to infants after 4 months.

@tankasnowgod are you certain that the casein is not too high?
 

Beastmode

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Peat said goat's milk is fine for an infant. Our's was breastfed, but we did supplement some breastmilk "here and there" when mommy wasn't around. She still drinks the same goal milk 3+ years later.
 

boris

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Do you have any helpful suggestions? Or able to debunk the iron or casein issue mentioned above? Or thoughts on the Weston Price recipe? Or just commenting to confirm I'm poisoning my child without having enough of an understanding of the topic to explain why cow, goat or the weston price recipe are better alternatives

The Weston Price recipe is really horrific :lol:. The liver and coconut oil sounds interesting though, but seems unneccesary. Goat's milk should be more similar to human breast milk than cow's milk because of higher oligosaccharide content. But I think anything is better than formula.

Do you know any other mothers in your area? Some produce too much milk, when I was a kid my mother shared excess breast milk to a neighbour who didn't produce enough.
 
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makaronai

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Is your wife not breastfeeding at all? Has she received any support from a lactation consultant? I think it’s possible to relactate at any stage as long as there is demand from a baby at breast.
 

boris

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Is your wife not breastfeeding at all? Has she received any support from a lactation consultant? I think it’s possible to relactate at any stage as long as there is demand from a baby at breast.

Peat has said that drinking a lot of milk and orange juice will help a mother produce milk herself.
 

makaronai

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Better nutrition is always helpful but you need the baby to suck for milk to come in. My son also had jaundice at birth and I had to pump to produce more milk quickly. I also kept him at breast almost 24/7 at the beginning.
 

Nebula

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Found my old recipe! 2 cups goat milk, 1 cup pure water, 1.5 Tablespoons lactose. This is the basic ratio. Add a daily infant vitamin to supply folate and other nutrients. I remember ordering lactose sugar from iherb. Lactose is important for baby development, though in a pinch use good sugar (ie you want to start today and lactose is on order) Oh my goodness, that Weston Price formula is a pain to make! Because cow's milk needs much more tinkering. Plus, the idea of all those ingredients together is really nauseating.
Nice and simple. What age did you use this at?

@giacomo seems the dilution with water is enough to ensure too much casein is not trying to be digested at once.
 
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