What's Wrong With Sugar And Starch Combining

[Rock_V]

@DaveFoster I pull a similar expression when I think about the time I thought I could digest raw oats. Worst symptoms you could imagine: Acne, Eczema all over hands, Dermatitis, Gyno, Muscle Weakness, Chronic Digestive problems. Absolutely terrible. I cringe when I see people blending oats into smoothies, thinking it's doing them good!

Now I can eat potatoes, rice and pasta (cooked) in large quantity and my digestion is great.

 

[EIRE24]

@DaveFoster I pull a similar expression when I think about the time I thought I could digest raw oats. Worst symptoms you could imagine: Acne, Eczema all over hands, Dermatitis, Gyno, Muscle Weakness, Chronic Digestive problems. Absolutely terrible. I cringe when I see people blending oats into smoothies, thinking it's doing them good!

Now I can eat potatoes, rice and pasta (cooked) in large quantity and my digestion is great.

Did you do anything particular to stop the acne or was it as simple as just stopping the raw oats?

 

[Rock_V]

Yeah so the acne I had was terrible when I was 16. I'd previously had a few peoples but it wasn't until a started bulking up on raw oats that it got really bad. Like there wasn't a centimetre of my face which didn't have a pimple or blackhead. At this point I was pretty beside myself.

I started cooking the oats, skin started getting better, as digestive function improved. Ditched milk for almond milk as I'd read that dairy was bad for acne. Acne made more improvements. By 1 year later the majority of the acne had cleared up. Getting sun on my face really helped too. Despite changing my diet multiple times from that period onwards (I'm 20 now) I've never had acne worse than a few pimples here and there. I still avoid milk though!

Even jumping from high fat - low carb diet to high carb- low fat my skin has consistently remained what many would consider pretty clear, despite myself not been in perfect overall health.

The eczema was the hardest thing to heal though which still persists to this day, but only a little bit here and there.

 

[EIRE24]

Yeah so the acne I had was terrible when I was 16. I'd previously had a few peoples but it wasn't until a started bulking up on raw oats that it got really bad. Like there wasn't a centimetre of my face which didn't have a pimple or blackhead. At this point I was pretty beside myself.

I started cooking the oats, skin started getting better, as digestive function improved. Ditched milk for almond milk as I'd read that dairy was bad for acne. Acne made more improvements. By 1 year later the majority of the acne had cleared up. Getting sun on my face really helped too. Despite changing my diet multiple times from that period onwards (I'm 20 now) I've never had acne worse than a few pimples here and there. I still avoid milk though!

Even jumping from high fat - low carb diet to high carb- low fat my skin has consistently remained what many would consider pretty clear, despite myself not been in perfect overall health.

The eczema was the hardest thing to heal though which still persists to this day, but only a little bit here and there.

And sorry to make you write a lengthy post again but how did you heal that and also, what's your diet like now? Still drink almond milk?

 

[Rock_V]

No worries man

So my diet is around 3000 calories, mostly carbs from potatoes, arborio rice, root veg, dried fruit and fruit juice. Around 50-60g fat from extra virgin olive oil, butter or coconut. And around 40-50g protein daily from beef, chicken, white fish or eggs on top of the protein from starches so it ends up about 100g.

Eating 3-4 times a day, not eating too late, and not eating in too much of a hurry (enjoying the food and relaxing).

No almond milk anymore. Not that I think it's that bad I just have no use for it in my own personal diet.

Not a prescription of any sort, I'm not preaching this as the way to go but it's the diet that I currently have clear skin doing. It's also convenient for me. I could include more foods which I would deem absolutely fine but I just keep things simple in my own day to day diet.

 

[EIRE24]

No worries man :)

So my diet is around 3000 calories, mostly carbs from potatoes, arborio rice, root veg, dried fruit and fruit juice. Around 50-60g fat from extra virgin olive oil, butter or coconut. And around 40-50g protein daily from beef, chicken, white fish or eggs on top of the protein from starches so it ends up about 100g.

Eating 3-4 times a day, not eating too late, and not eating in too much of a hurry (enjoying the food and relaxing).

No almond milk anymore. Not that I think it's that bad I just have no use for it in my own personal diet.

Not a prescription of any sort, I'm not preaching this as the way to go but it's the diet that I currently have clear skin doing. It's also convenient for me. I could include more foods which I would deem absolutely fine but I just keep things simple in my own day to day diet.

Sounds good to me. Similar to something I would enjoy.

What would a typical meal look like? You say root vedge so I suspect no broccoli or greens?

 

[Rock_V]

Yeah I enjoy it too, it's pretty much the foods I gravitated towards as a kid, when I was the picture of health. I couldn't force myself to eat broccoli if I tried, hate it! Greens like spinach I don't eat but I don't think they're unlikely to cause any problems as long as they're cooked.

Typical meal would be baked fish or chicken with either rice or potatoes, with a bit of olive oil or butter and plenty of salt.

 

[EIRE24]

Yeah I enjoy it too, it's pretty much the foods I gravitated towards as a kid, when I was the picture of health. I couldn't force myself to eat broccoli if I tried, hate it! Greens like spinach I don't eat but I don't think they're unlikely to cause any problems as long as they're cooked.

Typical meal would be baked fish or chicken with either rice or potatoes, with a bit of olive oil or butter and plenty of salt.

Tasty! This is the same as my meals

 

[schultz]

Another example is uncoupling - if you uncouple your metabolism the need for anti-oxidants goes up to protect from the ROS produced by this high rate of metabolism.

Does this explain the connection between dinitrophenol and cataracts? Increased superoxide reacting with PUFA in the eye? Would this mean that DNP could have different effects on people with different types of fat stored? IE. Someone with a large amount of PUFA and low amount of vitamin e may not fair so well taking a strong uncoupler.

 

[haidut]

Does this explain the connection between dinitrophenol and cataracts? Increased superoxide reacting with PUFA in the eye? Would this mean that DNP could have different effects on people with different types of fat stored? IE. Someone with a large amount of PUFA and low amount of vitamin e may not fair so well taking a strong uncoupler.

Quite possible, yes. This is one reason Peat does not like forcing through the PUFA oxidation. He thinks it's best handled through passive excretion by liver/kidneys.

 

[Wagner83]

Also, I always found it strange that the criticism is somehow aimed at consuming large amounts of sucrose. Somehow consuming large amounts of starch is not considered to be mineral depleting by these people or at least it is never discussed in that light. By that token - i.e. insulin production requirements - protein should be the most potent depletor of zinc/manganese since protein triggers even more insulin release than pure glucose. Again, that point is somehow never brought up. As you can see, any macronutrient can be said to "deplete" something because if it is necessary for its metabolism. But the reality is that there are recycling mechanisms and depletion simply means if metabolism goes up the need for this nutrient also goes up. Another example is uncoupling - if you uncouple your metabolism the need for anti-oxidants goes up to protect from the ROS produced by this high rate of metabolism. So, the general argument against high metabolism and sugar so far seems to stem from the same old "rate of living" theory - do not ramp up your cells' furnaces 'cause you'll burn them up and exhaust them by depleting nutrients. Well, if you food is good quality that should not occur. The alternative of living in semi-hybernation just to avoid using up precious zinc and whatnot is certainly not the image of health, at least not to me.

Does that mean you think eating large amounts of sucrose so as to boost metabolism a lot while not being able to provide enough minerals or vitamins would simply result in the body lowering its metabolic rate until the missing nutrients are provided?
As for living in semi hybernation, is that how you would describe having starches as main source of carbs (serotonin, endotoxin)?

Do you agree fructose (and so sucrose) safety has not been assessed and we do not know enough to be sure it is a safe source of fuel? I know diabetics seem handle fructose better, but what about the increase in triglycerides from fructose?

 

[haidut]

Does that mean you think eating large amounts of sucrose so as to boost metabolism a lot while not being able to provide enough minerals or vitamins would simply result in the body lowering its metabolic rate until the missing nutrients are provided?
As for living in semi hybernation, is that how you would describe having starches as main source of carbs (serotonin, endotoxin)?

Do you agree fructose (and so sucrose) safety has not been assessed and we do not know enough to be sure it is a safe source of fuel? I know diabetics seem handle fructose better, but what about the increase in triglycerides from fructose?

Yes, that would be my take on it - the metabolism would get held back until the missing nutrient is added. I think we know enough about sucrose in the sense that it has been consumed for 100+ years on a world scale. There have been changes in obesity patterns that clearly have nothing to do with sucrose. I think most people have some degree of insulin resistance that tends to increase with age due to increasing lipolysis and sucrose may not help it much but it would not hurt either. It's probably better to have rise in trigs from sucrose than endure the constant cortisol/insulin duo due to high starch/glucose intake. Try to eat only starch as carbs with each meal and see if you experience the "food coma" afterwards. Then try to do the same with using sucrose/fruit as the major source of carbs.
The trigs are metabolically inert, it's the free FFA (NEFA) that wreak havoc and those FFA/NEFA depend on lipolyis, which depends mostly on estrogen/cortisol/adrenaline. A recent study showed people with highest trigs have the lowest mortality from CVD. Morever, the trigs from extra sucrose will contain palmitic acid, which as much as people here vilify is probably benign and even beneficial for PDH activation. It's the unsaturated fats from food that are the issue (for me at least) and the elevated insulin driven by the combination of estrogen/PUFA plus the excessive intake of starch and protein (especially in combination). Steak and mashed potatoes, a burger, or rice and meat/fish are all great ways to jack up the insulin. Steak with some fruits, jam, or even sweet potatoes is a lot easier on your digestion and metabolism.
If fructose was so bad, how come it does not deteriorate the condition of insulin-dependent type II diabetics who use it as their primary dietary sugar? All those trigs should make them even more insulin resistant, right? But it doesn't.

 

[milk_lover]

plus the excessive intake of starch and protein (especially in combination). Steak and mashed potatoes, a burger, or rice and meat/fish are all great ways to jack up the insulin. Steak with some fruits, jam, or even sweet potatoes is a lot easier on your digestion and metabolism.

Wow this is what I have been eating almost all my life. Protein like steak, lamb, fish etc. with rice or bread! What If I drink coke/pepsi with steak and little bit of starch like white rice? Would the sugar from the soda helps offset any potential bad effect from this starch+protein combo? Also, fruits can have vitamin C that can increase iron absorbance from meats. Which fruits would you recommend that goes greatly with steak for example?

 

[haidut]

Wow this is what I have been eating almost all my life. Protein like steak, lamb, fish etc. with rice or bread! What If I drink coke/pepsi with steak and little bit of starch like white rice? Would the sugar from the soda helps offset any potential bad effect from this starch+protein combo? Also, fruits can have vitamin C that can increase iron absorbance from meats. Which fruits would you recommend that goes greatly with steak for example?

Dates, figs and any other ripe fruit low in pectin and soluble fiber would be great. The Coke would generate less of an insulin response than bread/rice but I think fruit would be even better. Jam/marmalade would be other options. Adding saturated fat to the starches would help blunt their effects in insulin and maybe you are already getting a decent amount of these in the food since beef and lamb have mostly saturated fat.

 

[EIRE24]

Dates, figs and any other ripe fruit low in pectin and soluble fiber would be great. The Coke would generate less of an insulin response than bread/rice but I think fruit would be even better. Jam/marmalade would be other options. Adding saturated fat to the starches would help blunt their effects in insulin and maybe you are already getting a decent amount of these in the food since beef and lamb have mostly saturated fat.

So basically a high carb and low fat diet consisting of starch is bad?

 

[haidut]

So basically a high carb and low fat diet consisting of starch is bad?

If the starch/protein causes a huge insulin spike and then a crash later involving cortisol/adrenaline surge, then it is bad. Some people can handle it better and not get a stress response. But most people over 30 that I know get the jitters after such meals. The inherently bad things for me are PUFA, legumes and resistant starch. If you can handle well the cooked starches like rice, potatoes, or even white bread without getting a stress response then it is probably OK.

 

[Wagner83]

Yes, that would be my take on it - the metabolism would get held back until the missing nutrient is added. I think we know enough about sucrose in the sense that it has been consumed for 100+ years on a world scale. There have been changes in obesity patterns that clearly have nothing to do with sucrose. I think most people have some degree of insulin resistance that tends to increase with age due to increasing lipolysis and sucrose may not help it much but it would not hurt either. It's probably better to have rise in trigs from sucrose than endure the constant cortisol/insulin duo due to high starch/glucose intake. Try to eat only starch as carbs with each meal and see if you experience the "food coma" afterwards. Then try to do the same with using sucrose/fruit as the major source of carbs.
The trigs are metabolically inert, it's the free FFA (NEFA) that wreak havoc and those FFA/NEFA depend on lipolyis, which depends mostly on estrogen/cortisol/adrenaline. A recent study showed people with highest trigs have the lowest mortality from CVD. Morever, the trigs from extra sucrose will contain palmitic acid, which as much as people here vilify is probably benign and even beneficial for PDH activation. It's the unsaturated fats from food that are the issue (for me at least) and the elevated insulin driven by the combination of estrogen/PUFA plus the excessive intake of starch and protein (especially in combination). Steak and mashed potatoes, a burger, or rice and meat/fish are all great ways to jack up the insulin. Steak with some fruits, jam, or even sweet potatoes is a lot easier on your digestion and metabolism.
If fructose was so bad, how come it does not deteriorate the condition of insulin-dependent type II diabetics who use it as their primary dietary sugar? All those trigs should make them even more insulin resistant, right? But it doesn't.

Yes it has been consumed for some time (still very new compared to rice, potatoes and other grains), but definitely not as a main source of fuel, which is my main concern: we have no experience with such a diet and 0 studies have been done either, so while it may be the best bet it is venturing into the unknown (with ou health).
I have experienced the food coma (if you mean feeling like you can't function for hours ) many many times, particularly after lunch (circadian rythm of insulin sensitivity?), usually some proteins, starch and a bit of fat.

It's the unsaturated fats from food that are the issue (for me at least)

Do you mean by personal experimention (so every time you ingest PUFAs you notice bad stuff happening) or theoretically from the studies you've seen?
With starch and proteins there's a big insuling spike, it has been discussed that insulin is actually needed to use the glucos as needed (muscles...), what is your take on it? There was also this study showing more insulin resistance from the second meal if the first one was glucose + fat, wouldn't you expect the body to improve with its use of proteins and starch and therefore need less time to recover if fat stores are low? (Mcdougall etc..)
There's a study on animals showing the combination of high fat + high sucrose leads to kidney issues, we're not those animals but I'd think someone fat (type 2 diabetic example) would be on a high fat diet regardless of his intake.

 

[haidut]

Yes it has been consumed for some time (still very new compared to rice, potatoes and other grains), but definitely not as a main source of fuel, which is my main concern: we have no experience with such a diet and 0 studies have been done either, so while it may be the best bet it is venturing into the unknown (with ou health).
I have experienced the food coma (if you mean feeling like you can't function for hours ) many many times, particularly after lunch (circadian rythm of insulin sensitivity?), usually some proteins, starch and a bit of fat.


Do you mean by personal experimention (so every time you ingest PUFAs you notice bad stuff happening) or theoretically from the studies you've seen?
With starch and proteins there's a big insuling spike, it has been discussed that insulin is actually needed to use the glucos as needed (muscles...), what is your take on it? There was also this study showing more insulin resistance from the second meal if the first one was glucose + fat, wouldn't you expect the body to improve with its use of proteins and starch and therefore need less time to recover if fat stores are low? (Mcdougall etc..)
There's a study on animals showing the combination of high fat + high sucrose leads to kidney issues, we're not those animals but I'd think someone fat (type 2 diabetic example) would be on a high fat diet regardless of his intake.

I have measured acute inflammatory biomarkers like CRP and TNFa 2 hours after a PUFA rich meal. The rise is uncomparable to anything else I have consumed, including alcohol. Some people will say alcohol suppresses inflammation but that's only for the first 24 hours. After that it bounces back with a vengeance. So, based on my N=1 tests PUFA is way more inflammatory than alcohol, which is also a TLR4 agonist so it is nothing to laugh at. See below for more info.
PUFA are carcinogenic, dietary glycine blocks their effect

We may have consumed starch for longer, but the reliable clinical data on starch or sucrose is about the same - i.e. 100+ years of somewhat decent recordkeeping in hospitals and such. As far as the fructose and diabetes - yes, these people have excessive lipolysis and would be on a de-facto high fat diet all the time. But my point is that fructose does not seem to make their condition worse, which it should it it was that detrimental to hyperlipidemia. That's the disconnect I don't understand. Medicine keeps whining about fructose and how it causes diabetes II. But once a person has diabetes II the fear of fructose goes out the door and fructose suddenly becomes the diabetes-friendly sugar. And there is no mentioning anywhere that it may somehow worsen the already established diabetes. Somehow it becomes more or less benign once you get diagnosed as diabetic. Am I missing something!?

 

[Wagner83]

Ok, thanks for the information on the tests you did.

As for fructose and sucrose as a main source of fuel (again, nobody really knows how it would work), I'm not only curious about diabetes, but also organs health (kidneys, kidney and gallbladder stones, liver..), however I only come across animals studies which seem to have little to no meaning for us , not even mentioning they often combine poor diet with the use of sucrose (like the "chow diet").

 

[lexis]

A dash of black pepper can arrest insulin spike and it can also act as a digestive enzyme..