What's Wrong With Overstimulating Metabolism?

frant26

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I've been reading for years how estrogen/prolactin/serotonin/cortisol wreak havoc in the body. And how other so-called pro-thyroid substances can oppose them and how great they are.

I'm hypo, and recently got fat and today noticed varicose veins (wtf). Let's say I take enough thyroid, multivitamins, androgens, magnesium, caffeine, etc, and then some, in doses that can be considered metabolically "overstimulating".

Given enough Peaty food (4oookcal daily)... How is this exactly harmful, in a physiological sense? Will some stress hormones increase for example with overstimulation?

A few things I know:
- Some people here felt joint pain, or loss of libido, when lowering cortisol/estrogen too much
- T4 with lack of sugar can convert into rT3 - but i don't know the symptoms

I have unfortunately a LOT of difficulty connecting substances with symptoms, besides a few exceptions. So really: if I err on the side of "too much stimulation" and thyromimetic substances to just kill estrogen/prolactin, how bad can that be? Of course the ideal would be to find balance but what's the least worse?
 

tankasnowgod

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In a word, "Overdose." When I was younger, I ate waaaaay too many caffiene pills once, and ended up vomiting, and was sick for a few days. Broda Barnes mentions that overdosing thyroid can lead to fatal heart attack (the doses used were 4 to 30 grains, with NO ramping up) in Hypothyroidism, the unsuspecting illness. High doses of androgens can shut down all natural production, and excessively convert to estrogen. And Magnesium? Too much of that can cause diarrhea. I know you didn't mention it, but high doses of DNP can basically cook you to death. Possibly the same thing could happen with excess doses of caffiene and thyroid.
 
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frant26

frant26

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Thanks. I didn't mean 30-grain kind of stimulation :D enough to give me a heart attack, but what if I err on the high side...

Are symptoms of "more than enough" thyroid similar to those of "less than enough"? I really can't tell if I'm overdoing it. Feel tired without it, feel tired with it. And I'm still fat.
 

Constatine

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The main difficulty would be getting enough nutrients as all nutrient demands increase with metabolism. That being said being slightly hyperthyroid is not a bad thing by any means if you do get enough fuel. So I say go for it. Just be sure to eat like a race horse.
 

tankasnowgod

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Thanks. I didn't mean 30-grain kind of stimulation :D enough to give me a heart attack, but what if I err on the high side...

Are symptoms of "more than enough" thyroid similar to those of "less than enough"? I really can't tell if I'm overdoing it. Feel tired without it, feel tired with it. And I'm still fat.

While 30 grain is insanely high, the book seemed to suggest that starting out on 4 grains could have similar effects. With Thyroid, many people find that more is not necessarily better. 4 grains for me seemed more suppressive than 3. I'm currently doing even less with Tyromix, and getting better results. Truthfully, I found that being active (for me, simply walking) helped to spread the effects of supplemental thyroid.

Also, on 4,000 cal a day, I'm guessing you wouldn't be losing any weight (and likely gaining), unless you are really active. Have you tried estimating your overall caloric output for the day?
 
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frant26

frant26

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Try sleeping with a 100+ pulse

Good point actually... might try slowly dialing it up until pulse becomes uncomfortable to sleep.

The main difficulty would be getting enough nutrients as all nutrient demands increase with metabolism. That being said being slightly hyperthyroid is not a bad thing by any means if you do get enough fuel. So I say go for it. Just be sure to eat like a race horse.

Which I imagine should be plenty with the supplements and foods I'm eating. This is Dewitt on the (late) Peatarian forum:

"I think in general, the thyroid doses that some people on here take are way too small. The fear of hyperthyroidism is quite irrational, in my opinion. It's very hard to induce hyperthyroidism with synthetic T3+T4. And even if you do, there are no real consequences in the short term. You just get horny and lose weight. That's about it, really."

4 grains for me seemed more suppressive than 3

Very curious about the concept of "suppressive". Of what? It made you sick?

Also, on 4,000 cal a day, I'm guessing you wouldn't be losing any weight (and likely gaining), unless you are really active. Have you tried estimating your overall caloric output for the day?

I've been advised several times to up my calories to that amount :mad:. I am kind-of active (weights and some box training with little cardio 3x week, some biking, some walking) and weight is either stable or increasing. (Can't check, no scale here)

I'm thinking same calories, more thyroid. "Get horny and lose weight" sounds like the perfect plan.
 

tara

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I think one of the risks from overstimulation even if you don't go into the range of sudden overdose danger is that the body doesn't like it/consider it safe and sustainable and may use various mechanisms to protect you. This can involve elevation of stress hormones, down-regulation of some prometabolic processes (eg an increase in rT3 or reduction in T4). And then you've got a more complicated situation to unravel.

Therefore, I think theoretically there's a lot to be said for taking a gradual monitored approach. Measure body temps daily at least, and if you have the time and patience you can do it 2-3 times at regular times of day and include resting heart rate.
Start by ensuring generous micronutrients.
If you are not eating enough calories, gradually bring them up.
Then if necessary consider adding a supplement to give the metabolism a lift. Maybe better to add one at a time to avoid overdoing it. If you start with NDT, start with small increment, divide it through the day (T3 has short half life), and increase only after two weeks (T4 has long half life). Broda Barnes said that if you bring waking temps up to the 97.8 - 98.2 range you are unlikely to suppress endogenous production.

Disclaimer. This is theoretical to some extent, based on reading. I cannot claim to have solved my own health issues yet.
 

tankasnowgod

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Very curious about the concept of "suppressive". Of what? It made you sick?

No, just noticed that hands and feet would be colder when on a higher dose of Thyroid. I was using NDT at that time, and as I mentioned, I'm experimenting with Tyromix right now. It might have a better T4:T3 ratio. I did 50mcg of pure T3 once (about 30 minutes apart), and I did start sweating pretty good. I'm hesitant to do that again, however.

I've been advised several times to up my calories to that amount :mad:. I am kind-of active (weights and some box training with little cardio 3x week, some biking, some walking) and weight is either stable or increasing. (Can't check, no scale here)

I'm thinking same calories, more thyroid. "Get horny and lose weight" sounds like the perfect plan.

Who advised you to do that? When I was at my heaviest (260 pounds), I was walking 10,000 steps a day and eating around 4,000 cals, and not losing anything. I used the Mifflin St. Jeor equation to estimate calorie burn, and later a fitbit, and, lo and behold, suddenly weight and fat loss wasn't impossible.
 
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frant26

frant26

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No, just noticed that hands and feet would be colder when on a higher dose of Thyroid. I was using NDT at that time, and as I mentioned, I'm experimenting with Tyromix right now. It might have a better T4:T3 ratio. I did 50mcg of pure T3 once (about 30 minutes apart), and I did start sweating pretty good. I'm hesitant to do that again, however.

Who advised you to do that? When I was at my heaviest (260 pounds), I was walking 10,000 steps a day and eating around 4,000 cals, and not losing anything. I used the Mifflin St. Jeor equation to estimate calorie burn, and later a fitbit, and, lo and behold, suddenly weight and fat loss wasn't impossible.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Out of curiosity, how many calories do you consume daily? I'm going to look up that equation.
 

nikolabeacon

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Many things can go wrong. I already asked this question twice and no one answered.
I dont want to talk about speciffic information( calories, hormones, nutrients, i cant tell you that i am going to ditch the starch and milk products and be atacked because of that) because my advice will be useless to you because it is up to you to find what are your needs and responsibilities in life and where is your position in nature. Especially you should be aware the it is not aboy "fast and big" and useless heat( maybe even dangerous) but in efficient usage of energy and in efficient mitochondria functioning. When cell is over stimulated if it dont get enough and right kind of nurishment and iv its functioning is not efficient it will probably die. He also stated this and yet still....

Peat overall ideas about thyroid health, temperature and other protective mechanisms are correct. But I see those only as a possible optimal state that should be achieved through establishing optimal environmental factors and life activities.

Environmental factors are constantly shaping our hormone profile...sometimes it pushes stressfull/action)/ fight hormones to gives us a strenght to overcome some difficulties in much shorter periods and solve them.. which we are unwilling while we are drugged with medications and stimulants.

And what you will do if you neglect stressfull factors and try to artifficialy opose it. Sooner or later one side ( usually bad one) will prevail and you will crash and then maybe you will already be exhausted of your vital life energy for changing things. And it is very hard then to establish homeostasis because you lost complete image. There is no coherence...We have various mechanisms which help and helpped us( through history) to escape terrible and difficult situations and quckly establish better circumstances. We should always recieve signaling informations from environment and be ready to act in accordance with it.

All this is happening probably because people and society are dislocated from nature. And people lost that sense of responsibility and thus realisation of self inner energy for changing things and in emancipatory sense self consciousness that we became true masters over our own lifes.

As I said his ideas are ok but he take it too far with science,biochemistry, ( which has many limitations) stressors and its dangers. Maybe we should stop planet from rotating and have eternal anti stresfull light but blocked with the glass because of UV. He take it too far also with the " regenerative " metabolism of a ten year old and try so hard to copy some of its features and thus neglecting the fact which he also know and that is that we dont yet have a clue what really is "growth and youth" and what many mechanisms and things are involved in that process and in complexity of living things in general.

. After 3 years of reading and analizyng him and settling things I am sure now that he had terrible health problems during his life( he lost his teeth probably from ridiculous amount of pasteurized milk ( btw frutarians also have terrible teeth but everyone have its strory that it is nof from fruit which today usually is unripe) which was never used in such a large quantities before his advices in people who thrived on milk products , he messed his hormones, mentioned terrible sleep, eye melanoma, serious bowel problemss..... and who knows what else) ...and i am sure that he still have them. And he was probably so desperate to solve them ( as anyone who is in serious health problems) and so he experimented with many things and thus messed his organism ,healt and hormones even further .And when you are heavily traumatized by health problems or after trauma or serrious stressors brain damage is easily posiblle and in many cases inevitable. And that already makes him not so nice to blindly follow. And probably at the same time he was pressed by his job and living as many people are today.

And such a person is so afraid of every single struggling and dangerous "stressor" in life. Your life becomes running away from " stressors" instead of facing true living. It blocks you completely. And in the case of man you are turning into an weak effeminate afraid man good for nothing( maybe good for painting imagined naked womans) and in the case of woman into a histeric anxious witch. True woman is contrary to this. And true man:



And when someone choses to desperately try to solve health problems he neglect factors which are shaping us and try to opose them in artificial way then he loses responsibility for the environment and thus detach himself from true process and control over life. Today majority is doing exactly same mistake.

When you are a true master of your life process you must listen to your body which is signaling current state of the environment and what needs to be changed. Very often it is stresfull but exactly that is what ix stimulant for life and adventure. After struggling for better situation afterwards always comes award , selfesteem, and sense of well being. When you start to opose it and try so hard you are destroying complexity , potential award and stimulus for bright vision and better future.
 

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tankasnowgod

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After 3 years of reading and analizyng him and settling things I am sure now that he had terrible health problems during his life( he lost his teeth probably from ridiculous amount of pasteurized milk....

I like how people pick on Ray Peat's teeth and attribute it to this or that, overlooking the fact that the man is 80. Lot's of elderly people have issues with their teeth.

I believe he's claimed that eating a wheat germ diet in his thirties ruined his teeth. Coffee is also supposed to be pretty hard on teeth, and at one point, Peat claims he drank around 50 cups of coffee a day.
 
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frant26

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I agree with the theory, but as you say:

it is up to you to find what are your needs and responsibilities in life and where is your position in nature

That is exactly what I (and a lot of people here) are trying to do. Experimenting and trying to find balance. Does my thread mean that I only do supplements? No. Does it mean that I will forever do those supplements? No.

Stress is necessary for growth and I embrace that. But I don't want to live like ***t because of it, thanks.

I like how people pick on Ray Peat's teeth and attribute it to this or that, overlooking the fact that the man is 80. Lot's of elderly people have issues with their teeth.

^ this.

I learned more from Peat about life than from anyone else, and just for that I am grateful. He has profoundly interesting ideas, does this mean the man has done everything right? Absolutely not.
 

paymanz

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Let alone nutrient needs, what you want do with elevation of heart beats?that is very discomfort!and probably dangerous.
 
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frant26

frant26

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Let alone nutrient needs, what you want do with elevation of heart beats?that is very discomfort!and probably dangerous.

Needless to say I don't want to be hyperthyroid, but I would sure as hell like to see how it feels on the other side. I hate my hypo symptoms, it's so difficult to reach and maintain good temperatures.
 

paymanz

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tankasnowgod said:
.
No, just noticed that hands and feet would be colder when on a higher dose of Thyroid. I was using NDT at that time,
Maybe that's a sign of high adrenalin?!

Some studies show hyperthyroidism can raise adrenalin.
 
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frant26

frant26

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Maybe that's a sign of high adrenalin?!

Some studies show hyperthyroidism can raise adrenalin.

I don't know. The body (or my body) sucks with its ability to communicate effectively. So many things "could be" going right or wrong, as I eat different foods and take different supps - it's almost impossible to tell what's going on or what is due to what. Kind of jealous of the people who can connect symptoms so easily.
 

paymanz

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Needless to say I don't want to be hyperthyroid, but I would sure as hell like to see how it feels on the other side. I hate my hypo symptoms, it's so difficult to reach and maintain good temperatures.
From the sports and activity you mentioned above I warn you about that,if you have hypo symptoms then why you do so many physical activity?!it just hurts you!

Have you tried t3 before?
 

paymanz

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I don't know. The body (or my body) sucks with its ability to communicate effectively. So many things "could be" going right or wrong, as I eat different foods and take different supps - it's almost impossible to tell what's going on or what is due to what. Kind of jealous of the people who can connect symptoms so easily.
Lol I'm same as you on that inability!
 

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