What's Wrong With Grains

[ecstatichamster]

im doing a pufas depletion almost zero fat diet. What is wrong with sourdough bread or corn tortillas? I find it difficult to get satiated from just sugar.

 

[bobbybobbob]

The three alleged peat concerns are: 1) excess phosphate. 2) endotoxin generation. 3) persorption.

Personally, I'd not lose any sleep over these as long as you feel good and don't notice any problems. Starch without butter or coconut oil, however, strikes me as unpalatable and problematic. First of all, I just can't imagine eating dry bread or potatoes or rice on the regular. Yuck. If absolutely *had to* however, I could do very low fat on a sugary diet.

Secondly, peat has mentioned that saturated fat mitigates the persorption concern. It allegedly helps seal the gut while the starch is being digested.

I just ate thickly sliced sourdough fried egg sandwiches dripping with butter and a bit of cheddar cheese and it was heaven.

 

[bobbybobbob]

I would add that I think properly made sourdough and masa products are distinct from grocery store bread made with a list of 30 ingredients.

Just as with fruit and fat sources and anything else, there are quality questions when it comes to grains.

 

[natedawggh]

im doing a pufas depletion almost zero fat diet. What is wrong with sourdough bread or corn tortillas? I find it difficult to get satiated from just sugar.

do some reading on peats site.

 

[tca300]

No fructose in starch is a negative as well. I dont think you would deplete PUFA while getting enough carbs from corn and sourdough, both have enough PUFA to be concerned when your eating more than a couple hundred calories from them.

 

[aguilaroja]

...three alleged peat concerns are: 1) excess phosphate. 2) endotoxin generation. 3) persorption.

+1

Grains before alteration always contain seeds. Cereal grains have the seeds of grasses. The "fruit" of a cereal grain is found mostly in the starchy endosperm.

I think part of the argument is that seeds "protect" their ability to spread by producing defensive chemicals, preventing complete digestion. To be spread by insects, birds, and animals, a plant needs an attractive part (fruit) and a protected part (seed). The defensive chemicals lower the seed-eating animals metabolism, but are not too toxic. Otherwise, the animals would die without spreading seeds.

As your meal selection indicates, Dr. Peat finds that corn products boiled in alkali (tortillas, tamales) reduce persorption and are much safer forms of starch.

Of course, there is also PUFA in grains (wheat germ oil, rice bran oil, corn oil, etc.) but the refined grain products such as white rice and white flour would be generally starch,.

Cereal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?
"A particular plant will have a variety of defensive chemicals, with specific functions....Since the plant’s seeds are of unique importance to the plant, and contain a high concentration of nutrients, they must have special protection. Sometimes this consists of a hard shell, and sometimes of chemicals that inhibit the animal’s digestive enzymes.... In general, the plant’s most intense toxins are in its seeds,

Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?
"In fact, the protein value of grain is negligible, mainly because seeds contain their protein in a storage form, that is extremely rich in nitrogen, but poor in essential amino acids. Special preparation is needed to reduce the toxicity of seeds, and in the case of beans, these methods are never very satisfactory."

Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths
"If cows are fed extremely bad diets, for example with a very large amount of grain, the filtering process is less perfect, and some allergens can reach the milk, but since sick cows are less profitable than healthy cows, dairies usually feed their cows fairly well."

Food-junk and some mystery ailments: Fatigue, Alzheimer's, Colitis, Immunodeficiency. Carrageenan
"Since several traditional foods are made with corn that has been boiled in alkali, I thought it would be valuable to see whether this treatment reduced the ability of the starch grains to be persorbed. For breakfast one day, they ate only atole, tamales, and tortillas, all made from the alkali treated corn. None of the students could find any starch grains after centrifuging their blood and urine. That led me to substitute those foods whenever possible for other starches."

 

[ecstatichamster]

No fructose in starch is a negative as well. I dont think you would deplete PUFA while getting enough carbs from corn and sourdough, both have enough PUFA to be concerned when your eating more than a couple hundred calories from them.

I don't think so. White flour and sprouted tortillas say they have almost no oil at all. I doubt there is much fat.

1.2g per cup of all purpose white flour
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Wheat flour, white, all-purpose, enriched, bleached

I eat a lot of fruit and honey and sucrose so I am getting other sugars besides glucose starch.

Not sure about the persorption dangers. I'm eating bread with jam on it not dry. And plenty of coffee with it. Tortillas with chicken breast and hot sauce.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Ray said grains can make you fat. I wonder if it's true. I don't eat legumes at all. Just grains as an experiment.

 

[Elephanto]

I think it's worth it not to eat starch, as in having less endotoxin is noticeable in terms of wellbeing. I tried last year and had a very hard time to stick with only sugar because I was hungry all the time, felt like my metabolism was way too high and I probably had less glycogen in store. This year I'm doing it very easily and the key was : Eat more proteins . This really makes a world of difference in terms of satiety. I eat meals of about 25g protein 50g carbs 5g fat. Contrarily to last year I rarely indulge carbs on their own, without protein. Mostly because eating protein and a little fat (and some acidity) with carbs greatly decrease their glycemic index. Fiber does too by slowing digestion but I feel better without them and those kind of meals tell me that you don't need them to have satiety and good glycemic responses.

 

[tca300]

I don't think so. White flour and sprouted tortillas say they have almost no oil at all. I doubt there is much fat.

1.2g per cup of all purpose white flour
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Wheat flour, white, all-purpose, enriched, bleached

I eat a lot of fruit and honey and sucrose so I am getting other sugars besides glucose starch.

Not sure about the persorption dangers. I'm eating bread with jam on it not dry. And plenty of coffee with it. Tortillas with chicken breast and hot sauce.

Perhaps, but you originally said corn tortillas and sourdough, which if used as a main carbohydrate source will have enough PUFA to be harmful. I wasn't commenting on wheat. Even though it's quite inflammatory.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

The big misunderstanding about PUFA depletion.

Ray Peat on sprouted grains

 

[ecstatichamster]

I'm glad you mentioned. Regular tortilla has 350mg of pufa.

Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Tortillas, ready-to-bake or -fry, corn

Thanks Westside. I'll stick to sprouted grains at least when it comes to tortillas. Maybe best to avoid tortillas. The white flour sourdough has fewer pufas it seems.

Btw I'm not using the word depletion as in getting rid of completely but in terms of depletING. It seems very helpful to me conceptually. I'd like to lose the 20 or so pounds I put on and speed up my metabolism.

 

[allblues]

What do you folks think about craving bread/pasta?

It's strange, bread/pasta always seemed to make me sluggish and upset my stomach.
In the last year i probably haven't eaten more than a few loafs and 1-2 cups of pasta total, yet everytime i see a nice sourdough or if someone's
making pasta on the stove it seems the best thing in the world would be to slab butter on it and start shoveling.

Have evil microflora gotten into my brain and started controlling my preferences?
I like other foods, but i don't crave anything the way i can start craving bread or pasta.

The whole question of good/bad cravings in general is interesting.

 

[tomisonbottom]

What do you folks think about craving bread/pasta?

It's strange, bread/pasta always seemed to make me sluggish and upset my stomach.
In the last year i probably haven't eaten more than a few loafs and 1-2 cups of pasta total, yet everytime i see a nice sourdough or if someone's
making pasta on the stove it seems the best thing in the world would be to slab butter on it and start shoveling.

Have evil microflora gotten into my brain and started controlling my preferences?
I like other foods, but i don't crave anything the way i can start craving bread or pasta.

The whole question of good/bad cravings in general is interesting.

I think it might mean there's a deficiency somewhere in your diet. I used to get bread cravings, but if I'm eating enough calories and enough salt I don't get any kind of cravings.

And/or you might need an antibiotic or some activated charcoal, if you have SIBO or anything else like that going on. Those can cause cravings too.

 

[allblues]

I think it might mean there's a deficiency somewhere in your diet. I used to get bread cravings, but if I'm eating enough calories and enough salt I don't get any kind of cravings.

And/or you might need an antibiotic or some activated charcoal, if you have SIBO or anything else like that going on. Those can cause cravings too.

Thanks tom, i haven't been diligent with the salt, but i've been meaning to up my intake.

I hardly ever crave anything either, but thinking of bread/pasta can really hypnotize me. The nutritional profile of bread doesn't look too special from what i have found, so i don't know what the attraction might be if i'm deficient in something.

This probably belongs in a separate thread, but another weird thing that might be related is i haven't felt hunger in a very long time.
Maybe the gut being in bad shape has something to do with that.

 

[thegiantess]

@allblues B vits? Wheat has a lot of B vitamins. Tons of the them. Eat something like sprouted spelt and watch your cronometer numbers soar!

 

[allblues]

@allblues B vits? Wheat has a lot of B vitamins. Tons of the them. Eat something like sprouted spelt and watch your cronometer numbers soar!

Interesting! Yeah the B1, 2 and 3 numbers look okay.

It's the strongest/only craving i have but it has been like craving to drink, i've usually ended up regretting it.
Maybe i'll try a loaf.

It seems more sketchy than potatoes though for sure. Do you include grains/espec wheat in your diet in any form?

 

[CarbAppreciator]

Phytic acid can cause mineral deficiencies.

 

[xiaohua]

I think some people do OK with grains, others not so much. For me, I find that processed grains (cereal, pancakes, bread, biscuits) keep me full for hours, whilst whole unprocessed grains like a bowl of brown rice/quinoa with beans (even huge quantities with fat to up the calories) make me feel starving and craving sugar half an hour later. I'm not sure why this is, but I've given up on the idea of making whole grains anything more than a minimal part of my diet.

 

[thegiantess]

Interesting! Yeah the B1, 2 and 3 numbers look okay.

It's the strongest/only craving i have but it has been like craving to drink, i've usually ended up regretting it.
Maybe i'll try a loaf.

It seems more sketchy than potatoes though for sure. Do you include grains/espec wheat in your diet in any form?

I eat grains, yes. I eat white rice, buckwheat, and wheat. I generally only eat wheat in the form of sourdough bread or sprouted whole wheat like spelt. Either way the grain has been broken down and is more easily digested and the nutrients more accessible.