What's Wrong With Choline?

[TNT]

Choline is mentioned as being a bad thing in a couple threads. What's wrong with choline?

 

[SB4]

As far as I'm aware, choline is a precurser to acetyl choline which is a neurotransmitter that in excess can cause negative consequences.

The thing is, if you are getting choline from diet, I think there are many regulatory steps that mean you are very unlikely to get excess acetylcholine from high intake dietry choline.

Choline is also useful for many things, it can support methylation, is used heavily in cell membranes, is needed to put fat in the liver into LDL particles which if this doesn't happen you get fatty liver disease, and if you are low in choline and then get low in acetylcholine, that can have negative effects also.

I would try to get good levels of choline from the diet. You only really need to worry about acetylcholine if you are supplementing things like alpha GPC, but even then that could have benefits in the right context.

 

[TNT]

Thanx, @SB4 . I don't eat eggs or liver, but I take 1/2 Tbsp. a day of sunflower lecithin, and I'm wondering if that's a terrible idea. I'm doing it for the benefits you mentioned.

 

[Mufasa]

I think Ray Peat is not that a fan of methylation. If someone could explain why he warns against methylation that would be great.

 

[ddjd]

I think I read somewhere that ray thinks it's Estrogenic or it interacts with Estrogen to cause more stress in the body. But choline is vital for removing Estrogen from the body!! Specifically phosphatidylcholine

 

[SB4]

Thanx, @SB4 . I don't eat eggs or liver, but I take 1/2 Tbsp. a day of sunflower lecithin, and I'm wondering if that's a terrible idea. I'm doing it for the benefits you mentioned.

The problem with sunflower lecithin is not going to be increasing acetylcholine levels in my estimation, but in the fact that it is only like 13% choline or something; The rest is fat, and if it is coming from sunflower a significant portion will probably be PUFA.

Basically, lecithin is phosphatidylcholine, which is 2 fatty acids connected to a phosphorylayted choline via a glyceride(?):

So the 2 fatty acids composition will be related to the fatty acid compositon of the source it is derived from. Which I think with sunflower will contain too much PUFA. Now if your body then uses this PUFA phosphatidylcholine in your cell walls could that lead to trouble? Probably.

I think that is why haduit went out of his way to make a phosphatidycholine supplement that the 2 fatty acids in it where saturated. Problem is, as you can see from the diagram, most of the molecule is not choline, that's only like 13% of it. So you would have to take like 5g of it to reach your AI of choline. If you do that with lecithin then you could be getting up to 4g PUFA with it.

Anyway don't take all this as nailed on fact. I have just been reading up in choline and methylation these last few days so am likely to be wrong on somethings.

I am going to try transdermal choline bitartrate soon and have been upping egg intake for a couple of reasons as I am dealing with a lot of health issues.

 

[TNT]

Thanx, @SB4 . What is the phosphatidlycholine supplement @haidut makes that uses saturated fat?

 

[SB4]

@TNT I think it is called mitolipin. I have purchased some before. Problem is, if you are using it for choline intake it would be way too expensive. I think it has basically 200mg saturated phosphatidylcholine per serving, which is around 26mg choline. 30 servings per bottle = 780mg. About 1.5 days RDA per bottle.

So if you where looking for the other effects such as increasing the amount of saturated phosphatidylcholine in your cell membranes, and other effects it could be good, but for general choline intake I don't think so.

 

[SOMO]

Excess Acetylcholine = SLEEP PARALYSIS.


Also can't we produce our own choline?

 

[somuch4food]

Also can't we produce our own choline?

Only a small amount. We need to supplement with diet for optimal health.

A deficiency can lead to NAFLD: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2010/11/23/sweet-truth-about-liver-and-egg-yolks/

 

[magnesiumania]

Betaine can convert to choline and visa versa, however some need more choline from diet or supplements and some do not.

 

[Mauritio]

Only a small amount. We need to supplement with diet for optimal health.

A deficiency can lead to NAFLD: The Sweet Truth About Liver and Egg Yolks -- Choline Matters More to Fatty Liver Than Sugar, Alcohol, or Fat |

That's an interesting article.

 

[Gustav3Y]

Interesting, I have been drinking some artichoke tea, which is claimed to be pro acetyl choline if I am not mistaken?
While I did that ALT and AST went down a lot, not that they were above the lab ranges, but I have noticed they went down in tests to very low numbers.


Also went to for a gallbladder and kidney ultrasound and compared to last year I had no more fine traces of sand that could be seen.
I did also use constantly of magnesium on skin, some claim it has zero absorption that way, well I mention it anyway.
Lack of dairy food intake may play a role too in the last year, I don't know.

 

[Zpol]

I think Ray Peat is not that a fan of methylation. If someone could explain why he warns against methylation that would be great.

I'm going to attempt to sum it up and hope I'm not missing any crucial points... Methylation of DNA happens due to the degenerative effects of aging. Basically, methyl donors patch up segments of DNA that have been damaged. Problem being, if you have too many methyl donors they can rub off on other parts of the DNA and cause over-methylation (this causes undesirable epigenetic effects like turning off tumor suppressor genes for example) . My understanding in regards to RPs point about methylation is that it's better to avoid the stressful situations that cause degeneration and DNA damage to begin with. I think the main issues creating a need for DNA methylation are; too much un-recycled methionine, not enough B-vitamins (especially folic acid and thiamine), and disruption in the electron transport chain.

 

[Mauritio]

Interesting, I have been drinking some artichoke tea, which is claimed to be pro acetyl choline if I am not mistaken?
While I did that ALT and AST went down a lot, not that they were above the lab ranges, but I have noticed they went down in tests to very low numbers.


Also went to for a gallbladder and kidney ultrasound and compared to last year I had no more fine traces of sand that could be seen.
I did also use constantly of magnesium on skin, some claim it has zero absorption that way, well I mention it anyway.
Lack of dairy food intake may play a role too in the last year, I don't know.

If you're interested in choline . Also check out this thread .

Incomprehensive/ble Notes On Choline

..and why avoiding eggs due to a couple grams of PUFAs might not be a good idea. They're not the only source, but are by far the best since livers aren't ideal for regular consumption. Finding pastured eggs locally and online - Toxinless These were all over of the places. I figured it could be...

raypeatforum.com

I'm slowly working through it.
Its a great summary of choline and methylation !
Great work by @Amazoniac @Mito

 

[golder]

The problem with sunflower lecithin is not going to be increasing acetylcholine levels in my estimation, but in the fact that it is only like 13% choline or something; The rest is fat, and if it is coming from sunflower a significant portion will probably be PUFA.

Basically, lecithin is phosphatidylcholine, which is 2 fatty acids connected to a phosphorylayted choline via a glyceride(?):

So the 2 fatty acids composition will be related to the fatty acid compositon of the source it is derived from. Which I think with sunflower will contain too much PUFA. Now if your body then uses this PUFA phosphatidylcholine in your cell walls could that lead to trouble? Probably.

I think that is why haduit went out of his way to make a phosphatidycholine supplement that the 2 fatty acids in it where saturated. Problem is, as you can see from the diagram, most of the molecule is not choline, that's only like 13% of it. So you would have to take like 5g of it to reach your AI of choline. If you do that with lecithin then you could be getting up to 4g PUFA with it.

Anyway don't take all this as nailed on fact. I have just been reading up in choline and methylation these last few days so am likely to be wrong on somethings.

I am going to try transdermal choline bitartrate soon and have been upping egg intake for a couple of reasons as I am dealing with a lot of health issues.

Did you ever try the transdermal choline bitartrate? Would be really interested to hear how it went.