What's The Deal With Hunger And Metabolism?

Cirion

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So I've noticed something. When I feel "hunger", and I'm not actively holding a strict diet, I gravitate towards solid foods (protein, fats, starches) and while these reliably "satiate" me, they also reliably lower my metabolic rate, cause lethargy, depression, destroy my sleep quality, and also destroy my waking temperatures the next morning as well as any hope for restful sleep. This paradoxical effect makes it impossible to use intuition to decide what foods to eat, because intuitively I gravitate towards these foods when "hungry" which always is a disaster for me metabolically. This is why the Gywneth Olwyn approach will never work for me.

Conversely, things like sugar in particular, they have the opposite effect. They are "anti-satiating" (in that the more you eat, the more appetite grows) BUT they also are the only things that ramp up the metabolic rate, increase energy, eliminate depression, and improve waking temperatures.

What's the deal? Is it just not possible to satiate your hunger and also have a good metabolism? Yes, I have experimented with ample sugar in the presence of ample solid foods. It doesn't work. Proteins and fats are the most anti-metabolic substances for me in particular. Starches do have some place in my optimal diet, but not animal proteins or fats.

I must be experiencing what VoS/Sea noticed also. I think it was either (or both) of them that said that anything that builds appetite and doesn't suppress it is indeed something that is building/improving the metabolism and that anything that is "satiating" is in fact by definition something that suppresses the metabolism also because a slowed metabolism isn't a hungry metabolism.
 

Kingpinguin

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Not eating causes dopamine release and sensitivity. Eating causes serotonin release. This is because when you have eaten youre supposed to feel tired and take a nap, digest food etc. It slows down metabolism. While when you dont eat you need to be alert, energized and motivated to hunt/gather food. Its a survival thing. I think it has a correlation. Sugar somehow does not cause that serotonin release and usually increase dopamine. Maybe as a signal to the brain that this is good stuff get more and more. I dunno just a hypothesis. But read similair stuff on the topic when they studied neurotransmitters in worms.
 

somuch4food

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Conversely, things like sugar in particular, they have the opposite effect. They are "anti-satiating" (in that the more you eat, the more appetite grows) BUT they also are the only things that ramp up the metabolic rate, increase energy, eliminate depression, and improve waking temperatures.

I must be experiencing what VoS/Sea noticed also. I think it was either (or both) of them that said that anything that builds appetite and doesn't suppress it is indeed something that is building/improving the metabolism and that anything that is "satiating" is in fact by definition something that suppresses the metabolism also because a slowed metabolism isn't a hungry metabolism.

I've started thinking along those lines as well. When I eat something and become more hungry 10-15 minutes later, I think it's my body sending a signal that what was just ingested is needed in higher quantities. I used to think I had a bad reaction to apples since I was so hungry after eating one, but it turns out I need 2 or 3 to satisfy my body of this particular food.

This can explain why some days I can eat a lot of meat and feel great while on other days I feel stuff after a few bites.
 

Collden

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Boiled starches are supposedly better than simple sugars at stimulating muscle glucose uptake. I think this muscle glycogen loading somehow relates to satiety because I can only get lasting satiety and get into a perfectly relaxed parasympathetic state when I have a meal with boiled starches followed by some sugars. Sugar alone is never satiating for long, I'm guessing because it simply raises blood sugar to be immediately burned rather than promote its storage in muscle.

I also sleep much better throughout the night when I have a big load of boiled starch as part of the evening meal rather than just protein and sugar, so I suspect that muscle glycogen plays some role in maintaining glucose during fasting, either that or starch also improves liver glycogen storage.

Since you crave these foods but crash when you have them, maybe you are running on a chronically activated stress response that your body is trying to shut down? You know stress can mimic all the signs of high metabolism like pulse, temperature and energy levels.
 
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Cirion

Cirion

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Boiled starches are supposedly better than simple sugars at stimulating muscle glucose uptake. I think this muscle glycogen loading somehow relates to satiety because I can only get lasting satiety and get into a perfectly relaxed parasympathetic state when I have a meal with boiled starches followed by some sugars. Sugar alone is never satiating for long, I'm guessing because it simply raises blood sugar to be immediately burned rather than promote its storage in muscle.

I also sleep much better throughout the night when I have a big load of boiled starch as part of the evening meal rather than just protein and sugar, so I suspect that muscle glycogen plays some role in maintaining glucose during fasting, either that or starch also improves liver glycogen storage.

Since you crave these foods but crash when you have them, maybe you are running on a chronically activated stress response that your body is trying to shut down? You know stress can mimic all the signs of high metabolism like pulse, temperature and energy levels.

Yes, I know starch is definitely part of the solution. I've tracked data since March of this year and neither a pure starch nor a pure sugar diet (for carb sources) works for me. It's very clear I need both not only objectively (from data) but also subjectively as you stated quite well already so I won't rehash.

Yes, I can see how one might think it is stress trying to shut down but I know what stress feels like. Stress is manic energy often coupled with depression/depressive thoughts, shyness, low confidence etc. On my best days (waking temps at or close to 98.6F) I feel better, less depression, more "Clean" (not manic) energy, great confidence, and more. Yes, a pure 100% sugar diet can cause this manic energy, but coupling with starch keeps it balanced.

Conversely the past couple of days which truly WERE stressful, I've had very bad energy, brain fog, horrible waking temps, horrible sleep, nightmares, low confidence, depression, and more.

So I agree w/ your points on starch, for sure, but I know virtually for a fact that my low temps are indeed from stress. What happens is your stress remains elevated thru the night, and then you get "Adrenal Fatigue" as its called from popular culture due to stress hormones finally burning out when it comes time to wake up in the morning. Its quite evident stress hormones are high at night: Frequent awakenings, high serotonin foggy feeling every time you awaken, and I've found bad nightmares are a great sign of high stress hormones also. My dreams are literally more and more pleasant the higher my carb intake is. I can induce nightmares with 100% reliability if my carbs are below a certain threshold. Back before I found peat when my carbs were even lower than that, I'd not only get nightmares but "sleep paralysis" to go w/ it.
 

Dobbler

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Starch cravings might be just salt cravings really, im sure you add salt to your potatoes and rice so your brain might be tricking you to think it's the starch, while it's the salt that you want. After i started drinking my "OJ salt shot" , which is about 200 ml of OJ and 18g of sea salt, all my starch cravings went away and now i crave fruit, milk and energy drinks, which btw are awesome if they are sucrose sweetened. I dont even crave beef anymore, atleast not at the moment.
 
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Cirion

Cirion

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Starch cravings might be just salt cravings really, im sure you add salt to your potatoes and rice so your brain might be tricking you to think it's the starch, while it's the salt that you want. After i started drinking my "OJ salt shot" , which is about 200 ml of OJ and 18g of sea salt, all my starch cravings went away and now i crave fruit, milk and energy drinks, which btw are awesome if they are sucrose sweetened. I dont even crave beef anymore, atleast not at the moment.

Yes interesting I guess you could be right.

FWIW the first time doing this Peat thing I had more success than I have been this go around. And, there's one thing I did then that I don't do now -- drown my fruit in salt... argh. I stopped doing it cuz it felt gross even though it probably was very healthy, I guess I have no choice huh...

Yes I almost literally drown my potatoes in salt lol.
 

Dobbler

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No need to ruin fruit with salt, just a little bit of juice, about 15-20g of salt, and drink it like a shot, then it's over. No need to worry about salt that day anymore, because i think that 20g is plenty enough for one day.
 
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Cirion

Cirion

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No need to ruin fruit with salt, just a little bit of juice, about 15-20g of salt, and drink it like a shot, then it's over. No need to worry about salt that day anymore, because i think that 20g is plenty enough for one day.

So I just made this very interesting plot today from my database.

upload_2019-8-20_14-9-30.png


Would you say then, that this is correlation and not causation? Higher fiber = higher starch = higher salt is what you're trying to argue?
 

Dobbler

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So I just made this very interesting plot today from my database.

View attachment 14398

Would you say then, that this is correlation and not causation? Higher fiber = higher starch = higher salt is what you're trying to argue?
I dont know man :D if you really enjoy starch and find it helpful then eat it by all means, potatoes are great , i wish i could tolerate them myself but they make my depression and health worse, no way around it.
 
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Cirion

Cirion

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I dont know man :D if you really enjoy starch and find it helpful then eat it by all means, potatoes are great , i wish i could tolerate them myself but they make my depression and health worse, no way around it.

Potatoes are weird. And starch in general can be as well. Sometimes they can actually worsen my mental state in the immediate term also. But long term they benefit my waking temperatures and overall mood/energy the next day. Maybe this crash is the result of salt contained with the starch shutting off stress?

This is why nutrition is so hard to figure out. Conversely, I've had day where something I ate made me feel amazing, euphoric even, short term and then the next morning have very very bad waking temps/mood/depression.

Anyway, I'm gonna do some salt experiments now I think w/ sugar...
 

Dobbler

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Potatoes are weird. And starch in general can be as well. Sometimes they can actually worsen my mental state in the immediate term also. But long term they benefit my waking temperatures and overall mood/energy the next day. Maybe this crash is the result of salt contained with the starch shutting off stress?

This is why nutrition is so hard to figure out. Conversely, I've had day where something I ate made me feel amazing, euphoric even, short term and then the next morning have very very bad waking temps/mood/depression.

Anyway, I'm gonna do some salt experiments now I think w/ sugar...
I think in this case it's that you eat the potatoes, you get nice insulin spike and FFAs and stress hormones go down, but by the next morning the potatoes have passed small intestine and large intestine and generating alot of endotoxin in both, so it's the endotoxin and serotonin that makes you and me more depressed when we eat potatoes.
 
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Cirion

Cirion

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I think in this case it's that you eat the potatoes, you get nice insulin spike and FFAs and stress hormones go down, but by the next morning the potatoes have passed small intestine and large intestine and generating alot of endotoxin in both, so it's the endotoxin and serotonin that makes you and me more depressed when we eat potatoes.

Very possible.

So 18-20g salt, that's how much sodium? And how many tsp(tbsp.) of salt?

You don't get manic sugar highs keeping you hungry and insomniac at night? This happens every time I've tried to eat 100% of my carbs from sugar. And I would also get very bad waking temps from pure sugar.
 

Dobbler

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Very possible.

So 18-20g salt, that's how much sodium? And how many tsp(tbsp.) of salt?

You don't get manic sugar highs keeping you hungry and insomniac at night? This happens every time I've tried to eat 100% of my carbs from sugar. And I would also get very bad waking temps from pure sugar.
Im using electric scale and 20g of sea salt. I use alot of fruit and milk, some days no sucrose at all. I eat about 400g carbs daily. I lose my sleep quite often but thats due everyday life stress.. my stress tolerance is next to zero..
 
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Cirion

Cirion

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Im using electric scale and 20g of sea salt. I use alot of fruit and milk, some days no sucrose at all. I eat about 400g carbs daily. I lose my sleep quite often but thats due everyday life stress.. my stress tolerance is next to zero..

400g may not be enough for you. I know everyone makes fun of me and criticizes me for this on this forum for my massive intake, but here's the thing... data is one thing that doesn't lie, and it puts my squarely at 1,050 gram of carbs for optimal body temp. I encourage you to possibly experiment with higher amounts, I wouldn't jump into 1k overnight but just see how lets say 500g differs from 400g for temps, pulses, moods for you...

If I "only" eat 400 gram carb I get depressed, moody, fatigued, lazy, unmotivated, horrible sleep, nightmares, low confidence all sorts of fun stuff.

upload_2019-8-20_14-37-42.png
 
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Cirion

Cirion

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Argh, I think you're right on the salt. So today I forgot to pack salt (FML) and the rice with no salt is not doing it for me today. I have killer brain frog/headache currently, no doubt in fact induced by sodium deficiency. I'm dyin here =/// lol gotta try to find something salt rich in the convenience store or something...
 

TheSir

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Should all the people complaining about McDonald's making them hungry again just a couple of hours later go for another big mac then?
 
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Cirion

Cirion

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Should all the people complaining about McDonald's making them hungry again just a couple of hours later go for another big mac then?

Well, just looked up calories in big mac - 563. That's actually not that much, so I can easily see someone not being satiated from just one. What makes said meal caloric rich is if you have that, fries, and a milkshake. But even at that is 1300-1500 calories, which is not too bad.

But yes, your question actually kind of validates my confusion with nutrition and intuitive eating.

It seems that sometimes the body craves inappropriate foods, I've noticed this to be the case, and if I indulge, my health actually worsens. Just like your health would no doubt worsen if you ate 6 big macs in a day. But maybe, as suggested earlier, it craves certain foods because of a few things in that food the body does want -- like salt/sodium -- it just so happens the food also contains some things that are NOT conducive to long term health, like PUFA/poor amino acids/soy/other things like carrageenan gum, food coloring etc and so it both helps and harms you at the same time.

Another good one - peanut butter. How many people love PB? Virtually everyone. But is it good for you long term? Absolutely not. Another food that tricks the body. What about nutella. Another good example. And most commercial chocolate ice creams. I could go on. This is why intuitive eating can't be relied upon imo...

I think in general a body in poor health has a broken intuitive sense. Just look at other things like alcohol, drugs, and other addictive things. Your body also tends to inappropriately crave these things because in the short term they actually do correct hormones (alcohol feels darn good in the moment) but in the long term damage them. It seems your body is a "little child" and must be treated as such. What do I mean by this? I mean that it wants things "NOW!!!" at the expense of anything and everything. If it's low in dopamine, it will cry out for ANYTHING that increases dopamine, even things that damage your health in the long run. Maybe similarly with the sodium example. "GIVE ME SODIUM NOW!!!" your body protests so you give in and eat the high sodium junk food, only to regret that choice later.
 
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Kingpinguin

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One problem today which our inner hunter gatherer likely havent adopted to is also that we are very sedentart in our modern society compared to our ancestors who walked, ran and hunted all day and did manual labour. Just these last hundred years people are likely not moving as much. I think our biological expectation is to want to eat a lot because thats what our ancestors did both because they likely starved inbetween but if they killed a big animal or ate fruits, berries they probably ate as much as they could so it would give energy, not spoil or other animals would eat it before they ate it all. I don’t think the hormones that sends signals about our hunger has had the time to adapt to us chilling all day not expending any calories. So it sends the wrong message that we should ”over eat” well if you move a lot your not over eating anymore since you burn it and you can eaisly eat 3000+ cals without gaining weight probably more
 

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