What the heck is WRONG with peatarian.com

Archer2.0

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So I've been eating a diet that follows the general structure of a 'Ray Peat Diet'. I feel great, I even tolerate dairy which used to be like poison to me. I no longer lift weights, yet hold visibly more muscle mass than I've ever held before. So no problemo with Ray Peat's philosophy, seems to work well for MY body. Anyways, I haven't really read any of the forums much, just Ray's articles and various studies on PubMed etc. I took a look finally at this forum and peatarian.com....WOW. What is WRONG with the people over there. They shouldn't even associate their site with Ray Peat's name. Countless posts from users such as 'Bukowski' and 'Dewitt' ripping apart Ray's take on the dietary matter with cherry picked studies. Then trolls like 'IslandGirl' and 'Alex' chime in about how they feel great eating mass quantities of PUFAS and grains. And, the owner of the site, Bruno, apparently has stopped eating a Peat inspired diet at all? WTF it's incredibly weird...I get incredibly strong self-hate vibe from the people over there.



So are any of you aware of this? Anyone have a take on this? I'd be especially interested in haidut's take on some of the studies they cite.

http://peatarian.com/24000/critical-ser ... l-function
http://peatarian.com/39419/critical-rev ... ial-growth
http://peatarian.com/39553/critical-rev ... recommends

^^^ some of Bukowski's posts.

I'm not even going to post what the pro PUFA trolls on there say.




Apologies if this is the wrong section, please move if so, Mods.
 
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I agree the culture there is unfriendly, and more argumentative than necessary. I'm not sure why someone would frequent that forum if they really thought a diet high in grains and PUFA was ideal. Still, of the posts on that site I'm surprised you singled out Bukowski's.

The fact that mainstream medicine refuses to suffer science-based criticism is Ray's main problem with it. This is why Ray constantly mentions that he's only teaching evidence he's found, and that he should not be confused with an authority. I think in his mind the worst thing that could happen would be for his followers to replace blind following of another authority with blind following of his ideas. His goal is to catalyze people into thinking critically, and to deeply understand the evidence themselves.

Bukowski's posts seem reasonable and informative to me. This is a good way to address any health idea: look broadly at the evidence, especially evidence that contradicts your current viewpoint. If we take offense whenever someone points out problems with Ray's ideas, then his ideas have become a 'gospel' disconnected from reality. I don't claim to speak for Ray, but I think this would be the opposite of what he wants.

Bukowski's post on carrot fiber was useful to me suffering from bacteria overgrowth. Eating a carrot would cause a large amount of gas and bloating, suggesting it was acting as a fermentable substrate rather than an antibiotic. Bukowski shows that carrot fiber more than doubles the hydrogen breath test, a finding consistent with my personal experience.

Any good theory of the carrot's actions needs to account for this conflicting information rather than ignore it. It's possible that the carrot acts as a probiotic rather than an antibiotic. It may for example have a benefit by increasing populations of one species of bacteria that produces less toxins than another. This could be beneficial for most people but harmful for an individual who already has an overgrowth of this type of bacteria.
 

jyb

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I don't see anything wrong with questioning and trying to understand why some of Peat's claim contradict some studies. That's different than from trolling - as you mention there are some trolls there. Especially if you're still trying to heal, you might need to experiment with things yourself and for that it's good to look into studies.
 
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Archer2.0

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Yes, I should have more clearly separated Bukowskis posts from my criticism of the trolls. So I was commentating on the rediculousness of some of the trolls over there and asking if anyone had noticed that.


And, separately I was wondering if anyone had read Bukowski's 'critical review' and what they thought about it. I withhold my own judgement of it till I have read every article of his and the associated studies.


BTW cherry picking of studies is impossble to avoid if you wish to make a point, from what I have seen. For ever study that says one thing, there is another study that says exactly the opposite.

Some clarifications.
 

overkees

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Amen to CellularIconoclast!

You seem quite outraged with this website, Archer. What is it that is making you so upset about this? I can understand some of your concerns but this rant seems to be a bit out of proportion.

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "cherry picking is impossible to avoid". Cherry picking is a very useful tool when it comes to forming a well based opinion. Some people call the works of Ray Peat on PUFAs also cherry picking, but that doesn't say anything about its credibility. There needs to be a certain logic, a scientific hypothesis that makes sense and also withstands falsfications by making minor adaptations to the hypothesis; or providing a context to expound on those outliers.
 

charlie

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Questioning everything is core of "Peat Philosophy". Thanks to Peat, a lot of my questions have been answered. He has given me the tools, to further search out those things for myself. For me, this is about trying to live life at it's best, maximum energy production, so we can reap the benefits of it. As Ray Peat has recently said, this is forever changing due to new information, new personal findings, etc.

I just ask we keep a level head about this subject, and not buy into the "us vs them" scenario. It is counter productive to what we are trying to achieve.

What would Ray Peat do :?: ;) :mrgreen:

:hattip
 

Blossom

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It's nice to have the different forums because the people whose lives have been touched by Peat's work are so diverse. I can imagine that one day there may end up being even more Peat inspired forums as his research gains popularity. Once I was initially perturbed by something I read on peatarian but when I realized the age of the author of the post I totally understood. It's just hard to understand fully a person's context online. If a peatarian and RP Forum member were sitting face to face I'm sure it would become apparent that there is more in common than not. I don't go to peatarian often because I simply feel more at home here but if this forum didn't exists I'm sure I could find a welcome spot there. I bet Ray would not only encourage us to research and experiment but also to have a loving attitude toward one another. I'm just speculating.
 

Peata

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We are them, they are us. I read a lot on that forum and found lots of helpful info. I read the two RP FB forums that I know of too. All have a different vibe.
 

Blossom

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Peata said:
We are them, they are us. I read a lot on that forum and found lots of helpful info. I read the two RP FB forums that I know of too. All have a different vibe.
So true! I've seen your picture there. I'm not on Facebook so I haven't checked those out but had heard about one in a small town in my state from a forum member.
 

burtlancast

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If the owner of Paetarian has stopped following Peat's ideas, or denounced them, then i agree with Archer, the site shouldn't make any reference to Peat anymore.

If it still does, then something isn't quite right in Denmark...
 
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This is Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement, which is a paradigm for distinguishing constructive from non-constructive criticism. A criticism that falls within the top 3 categories is likely to be constructive, and helps us better understand how to improve human health. Criticisms in the lower categories usually aren't meaningful or useful.

I think Ray almost always explicitly refutes the central point of the medical idea he critiques, by citing empirical evidence which is directly incompatible with those ideas. A criticism of Ray's ideas that extends this approach, further advances Ray's cause and deepens our understanding.

Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.jpg
 
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Archer2.0

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burtlancast said:
If the owner of Paetarian has stopped following Peat's ideas, or denounced them, then i agree with Archer, the site shouldn't make any reference to Peat anymore.

If it still does, then something isn't quite right in Denmark...

Yep, he has according to this:

"I can't say I have much success with Peat's ideas recently. Since the end of 2012 I've been playing around with starches, stopped milk because it made me worse, played around with a whole lot of supplements, ... and in retrospect the things that helped me most were whole foods, some people, staying away from the internet and nutrient restrictions, working out, eating too much, coq10, and many other little things that I just got from my earlier days of nutrition.
This is kinda odd since I felt very happy and calm when I initially used Ray's ideas. At the time I could use 50,000iu of retinol and just get puffy and tired, now I can't use 10,000iu topically without getting severely dizzy and weird.

This website will be online until mid-June, and in the meantime I'll try to upload some backups for anyone to download. After that I hope someone else could take over (or maybe RPForum can just provide the link to the backups) - I don't wanna continue being an admin for a website that I'm not frequenting."

asked May 11 by Bruno
reshown May 28 by Bruno

http://peatarian.com/40188/peats-ideas- ... 188#q40188




As to everyone saying Peat would want people to question things, I agree. I am from a scientific background and understand the need for objectivity and an open mind. However, blatant rejection of a philosophy on a site that is supposed to be dedicated to said philosophy, is, incredibly ridiculous. I've no dog in this fight, but I enjoy creating healthy discourse. :D
 

jyb

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Archer2.0 said:
and in retrospect the things that helped me most were whole foods, some people, staying away from the internet and nutrient restrictions, working out, eating too much, coq10, and many other little things that I just got from my earlier days of nutrition.

coq10? Seems random. Is that supplement supposed to cause a tangible effect? I guess anything could, we've seen that even with basic vitamins here...
 

kiran

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jyb said:
coq10? Seems random. Is that supplement supposed to cause a tangible effect? I guess anything could, we've seen that even with basic vitamins here...

I seem to recall CoQ10 promoting fat-burning. I can't recall exactly where I read it right now.
 

narouz

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I've always been of the mind that
a forum is made stronger by tolerating dissent.

Unless it's Isadora, of course.
:lol:
 
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It does look like carrots are reducing secondary bile production by bacteria and making short chain fats. I find some articles saying pectin inhibits DCA and then other articles saying it increases SCFA but it may increase mucosal proliferation, and somewhere else the starch is associated with protection from cancer. Anyway these experiments often try one fiber at a time which is unnatural. Like the half pound of carrot that they made them eat <<All subjects were able to eat the carrot although they were not always eaten quickly.>>
 

burtlancast

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narouz said:
I've always been of the mind that
a forum is made stronger by tolerating dissent.

Unless it's Isadora, of course.
:lol:

What about trolling ?
Is a forum made stronger by trolling ?
 

narouz

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I wouldn't think so.
"Trolling" sounds like quite a nasty thing.
How would you define it?
 

pboy

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its where you act like a big scary monster and gank people for their money or food as they cross your territory
 

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