What Is The Raw Material Cholesterol Is Made From?

[yerrag]

The secret is, if you eat a large variety of nutritious foods, you don't have to worry about all the nuance. It's mostly folks that are scared of some category of real food that need to worry about how long thier fatty acids chains are, and how much vitamin K thier butthole is producing.

I'm with you there. That's why you have to consider accessibility to such foods year round at affordable prices when finding a place to live. There's less effort involved in forming a lifestyle where such food is just around the corner, and fresh. Still, many places aren't like that as the market for such foods have dried because of AMA and AHA and media propaganda.

Doctor and media will says avoid liver because it's high in uric acid blah blah. Avoid coconut oil, tallow, blah blah. Avoid sugar blah blah. Avoid salt blah blah. Avoid milk blah blah. Blah blah...

 

[Travis]

It's mostly folks that are scared of some category of real food that need to worry about how long thier [sic] fatty acids chains are...

Whoa! Am I at the right place? This is the Ray Peat forum—yes?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

The majority of people enjoy a certain amount of fat when consuming animal foods. Most people would rather eat a chicken leg, than a chicken breast.

I don't care what most would eat. I care about objective data.

Fat makes food enjoyable, which you clearly agree with since you do fat days for pleasure.

Cocaine is enjoyable too. Just because something is pleasurable does not mean it results in optimal health. My fat days are for experimentation mostly.

Telling people fat is what's causing their problems is continuing the orthorexic narrative prevalent on almost every nutrition forum on the internet.

I don't "tell" people anything. I'm not a liberal so I don't try to control people like they do. I don't care what people do. People can do whatever they want. I make arguments based on the physiology of the homosapien organism and personal experience. People will talk about nutrition on nutrition forums. Wow. I'm not interested in the anti-orothrexic stuff because that's so 2012/13. I'm past that.

And continuing to tell people that a certain macro is the problem in people's diets, I think, is as you put it, "unhelpful to the reader."

You completely ignore many people who've said otherwise.

 

[James IV]

I don't care what most would eat. I care about objective data.



Cocaine is enjoyable too. Just because something is pleasurable does not mean it results in optimal health. My fat days are for experimentation mostly.



I don't "tell" people anything. I'm not a liberal so I don't try to control people like they do. I don't care what people do. People can do whatever they want. I make arguments based on the physiology of the homosapien organism and personal experience. People will talk about nutrition on nutrition forums. Wow. I'm not interested in the anti-orothrexic stuff because that's so 2012/13. I'm past that.



You completely ignore many people who've said otherwise.

Ok then. Well how about we just fight then. Like in a cage match. Then you can put your optimal health against mine. You in? It's obviously the only reasonable way to settle this debate.

We can get ice cream afterwards... or fat free gummy bears, whatever.

 

[paymanz]

One big advantage of carb over fat is more co2 production, regardless of type of fat.

 

[yerrag]

One big advantage of carb over fat is more co2 production, regardless of type of fat.

Good point. But it would not be advantage if the person isn't very active. If there is much more sugar going into the blood than the body can metabolize, wouldn't the sugar be turned into fat (that is after, glycogen stores are full)? Wouldn't it be better then to have some fat to take the place of the sugar in excess? That would spare the body the work of converting sugar to fat. Of course, knowing how much carb and how much fat to take is the tricky part.

 

[paymanz]

Good point. But it would not be advantage if the person isn't very active. If there is much more sugar going into the blood than the body can metabolize, wouldn't the sugar be turned into fat (that is after, glycogen stores are full)? Wouldn't it be better then to have some fat to take the place of the sugar in excess? That would spare the body the work of converting sugar to fat. Of course, knowing how much carb and how much fat to take is the tricky part.

Maybe the answer is to eat smaller and more frequent carb food,
And I'm not sure about this>"
But it would not be advantage if the person isn't very active."
Another point is that carb suppress free fatty acid in blood while dietary fat increase it.

You may have seen this quote by ray,

. Just about everything that goes wrong, involves free fatty acids increase. If they're totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose, and turning on various stress-related things (by lowering the carbon dioxide production, I think, is the main mechanism).

And this one I think shows a connection between free fatty acids and inflammation,
Inflammation Mediates Free Fatty Acid-induced Insulin Resistance

 

[Wagner83]

For sure, there is definitely variability in how certain foods make people feel, and any number of things effect this. It definitely doesn't mean starch or fat is good or bad.
Post meal energy levels alone doesn't make any food good or bad in a health context. Getting tired after a meal doesn't nessecarily mean it was bad for you, nor harmful in any way.

If someone is tired all the time and fat, then they are probably consuming energy beyond thier ability to use it. Ironically, over abundance of unusable energy in the body is usually responsible for lethargy for most people that are overweight.

I don't see how food coma and inability to function could not be seen as something negative, same for being moody, irritated etc.. That was me some time ago and I'm young and have always been quite lean. I'm not saying fat or starch are bad, but simply that with starch there may be real value to experience with different macro nutrients, and in particular providing enough fructose, proteins and less fat (and also look at the kind of fats used as per Travis and tyw suggestion).

 

[Travis]

Like in a cage match. [...] It's obviously the only reasonable way to settle this debate.

We're in cyberspace. You two may have to play a game of chess instead.

 

[yerrag]

Maybe the answer is to eat smaller and more frequent carb food,
And I'm not sure about this>"
But it would not be advantage if the person isn't very active."
Another point is that carb suppress free fatty acid in blood while dietary fat increase it.

You may have seen this quote by ray,


And this one I think shows a connection between free fatty acids and inflammation,
Inflammation Mediates Free Fatty Acid-induced Insulin Resistance

As the most efficient metabolic pathway involves sugar, and not fat, I have preference for sugar over fats. Certainly, we agree that PUFAs have no place in our dining table. When it comes to saturated fats, I may discard milk fat and animal fats such as tallow and lard, but I make an exception with coconut oil. Coconut oil is not merely an energy source, but have many benefits that can't be ignored:

Coconut Oil :

Just as metabolism is "activated" by consumption of coconut oil, which prevents the inhibiting effect of unsaturated oils, other inhibited processes, such as clot removal and phagocytosis, will probably tend to be restored by continuing use of coconut oil.

While components of coconut oil have been found to have remarkable physiological effects (as antihistamines, antiinfectives/antiseptics, promoters of immunity, glucocorticoid antagonist, nontoxic anticancer agents, for example), I think it is important to avoid making any such claims for the natural coconut oil, because it very easily could be banned from the import market as a "new drug" which isn't "approved by the FDA."

As far as the evidence goes, it suggests that coconut oil, added regularly to a balanced diet, lowers cholesterol to normal by promoting its conversion into pregnenolone. (The coconut family contains steroids that resemble pregnenolone, but these are probably mostly removed when the fresh oil is washed with water to remove the enzymes which would digest the oil.)

The fluidity or viscosity of cell surfaces is an extremely complex subject, and the degree of viscosity has to be appropriate for the function of the cell. Interestingly, in some cells, such as the cells that line the air sacs of the lungs, cholesterol and one of the saturated fatty acids found in coconut oil can increase the fluidity of the cell surface.

when I first used coconut oil I saw an immediate response, that convinced me my metabolism was chronically inhibited by something that was easily alleviated by "dilution" or molecular competition. I had put a tablespoonful of coconut oil on some rice I had for supper, and half an hour later while I was reading, I noticed I was breathing more deeply than normal. I saw that my skin was pink, and I found that my pulse was faster than normal--about 98, I think. After an hour or two, my pulse and breathing returned to normal. Every day for a couple of weeks I noticed the same response while I was digesting a small amount of coconut oil, but gradually it didn't happen any more, and I increased my daily consumption of the oil to about an ounce. I kept eating the same foods as before (including a quart of ice cream every day), except that I added about 200 or 250 calories per day as coconut oil. Apparently the metabolic surges that happened at first were an indication that my body was compensating for an anti-thyroid substance by producing more thyroid hormone; when the coconut oil relieved the inhibition, I experienced a moment of slight hyperthyroidism, but after a time the inhibitor became less effective, and my body adjusted by producing slightly less thyroid hormone. But over the next few months, I saw that my weight was slowly and consistently decreasing. It had been steady at 185 pounds for 25 years, but over a period of six months it dropped to about 175 pounds. I found that eating more coconut oil lowered my weight another few pounds, and eating less caused it to increase.

Ray mentions coconut oil as a protective substance, along with a few other substances.

 

[lollipop]

The secret is, if you eat a large variety of nutritious foods, you don't have to worry about all the nuance.

This.

 

[James IV]

I don't see how food coma and inability to function could not be seen as something negative, same for being moody, irritated etc.. That was me some time ago and I'm young and have always been quite lean. I'm not saying fat or starch are bad, but simply that with starch there may be real value to experience with different macro nutrients, and in particular providing enough fructose, proteins and less fat (and also look at the kind of fats used as per Travis and tyw suggestion).

I said nothing about mood. Being angry or moody is not the same as feeling calm or sleepy.
One of the big reason we have energy is to find food. If you eat a large meal that provides a variety of nutrition and energy, it will require a lot of energy to assimilate. This doesn't mean it's harmful. Most animals will sleep after consuming a large kill or finding an abundance of food. It doesn't mean it's hurting them.

I do think you should experiment with different foods and see what fits best for your lifestyle. What I'm saying is that there is no perfect ratio that will "work" all the time.

For instance I can eat the exact same macro based meal with different foods and have very different reaction. If I have rice, eggs and cottage cheese for a meal, it's very different than having steak and potatoes, even if the macronutrtion is exactly the same. Futhurmore, if I eat this meal at 9am, 1pm or 6pm will also make a huge difference in how I respond. Also how much activity and stress I had before the meal will change my body's response.

Sometimes food gives you energy, sometimes it makes you tired. Neither of these things mean it is good or bad for you. We as humans tend to get anxiety when we are tired during the work day, because it makes us less productive. But that's a societal issue, not a health issue. It's normal if we are lazy or tired sometimes, even during "working" hours. It doesn't mean you did something wrong. We likely just need some rest.

 

[paymanz]

As the most efficient metabolic pathway involves sugar, and not fat, I have preference for sugar over fats. Certainly, we agree that PUFAs have no place in our dining table. When it comes to saturated fats, I may discard milk fat and animal fats such as tallow and lard, but I make an exception with coconut oil. Coconut oil is not merely an energy source, but have many benefits that can't be ignored:

Coconut Oil :

Just as metabolism is "activated" by consumption of coconut oil, which prevents the inhibiting effect of unsaturated oils, other inhibited processes, such as clot removal and phagocytosis, will probably tend to be restored by continuing use of coconut oil.

While components of coconut oil have been found to have remarkable physiological effects (as antihistamines, antiinfectives/antiseptics, promoters of immunity, glucocorticoid antagonist, nontoxic anticancer agents, for example), I think it is important to avoid making any such claims for the natural coconut oil, because it very easily could be banned from the import market as a "new drug" which isn't "approved by the FDA."

As far as the evidence goes, it suggests that coconut oil, added regularly to a balanced diet, lowers cholesterol to normal by promoting its conversion into pregnenolone. (The coconut family contains steroids that resemble pregnenolone, but these are probably mostly removed when the fresh oil is washed with water to remove the enzymes which would digest the oil.)

The fluidity or viscosity of cell surfaces is an extremely complex subject, and the degree of viscosity has to be appropriate for the function of the cell. Interestingly, in some cells, such as the cells that line the air sacs of the lungs, cholesterol and one of the saturated fatty acids found in coconut oil can increase the fluidity of the cell surface.

when I first used coconut oil I saw an immediate response, that convinced me my metabolism was chronically inhibited by something that was easily alleviated by "dilution" or molecular competition. I had put a tablespoonful of coconut oil on some rice I had for supper, and half an hour later while I was reading, I noticed I was breathing more deeply than normal. I saw that my skin was pink, and I found that my pulse was faster than normal--about 98, I think. After an hour or two, my pulse and breathing returned to normal. Every day for a couple of weeks I noticed the same response while I was digesting a small amount of coconut oil, but gradually it didn't happen any more, and I increased my daily consumption of the oil to about an ounce. I kept eating the same foods as before (including a quart of ice cream every day), except that I added about 200 or 250 calories per day as coconut oil. Apparently the metabolic surges that happened at first were an indication that my body was compensating for an anti-thyroid substance by producing more thyroid hormone; when the coconut oil relieved the inhibition, I experienced a moment of slight hyperthyroidism, but after a time the inhibitor became less effective, and my body adjusted by producing slightly less thyroid hormone. But over the next few months, I saw that my weight was slowly and consistently decreasing. It had been steady at 185 pounds for 25 years, but over a period of six months it dropped to about 175 pounds. I found that eating more coconut oil lowered my weight another few pounds, and eating less caused it to increase.

Ray mentions coconut oil as a protective substance, along with a few other substances.

Yeah I agree CO makes you loss fat, has anti stress effects, but getting substantial percent of your calories from it?!

Ray mentioned 1-2 teaspoons a day when they asked him about dosage...

 

[James IV]

You may have seen this quote by ray,


And this one I think shows a connection between free fatty acids and inflammation,
Inflammation Mediates Free Fatty Acid-induced Insulin Resistance

FFA are an energy source. Energy is protective during stress. Glucose is also release from the liver during times of stress. Neither of these things are harmful.
Cortisol is an energy releasing hormone, and stress is nothing more than a need for energy.
These are not the cause of the stress. That's the same logic as Cholesterol being the cause of heart disease, when cholesterol is there to protect.
If you have sufficient energy (calories and nutrients) in the digestive tract all of the time, then cortisol will obviously stay lower since you don't need to be releasing stored energy. But if you are trying to lower your bodyfat, good luck.

There is NOTHING wrong with releasing FFA (bodyfat) for energy. Unless you are never in a caloric deficit (which is probably a bad idea) you will be burning bodyfat to some degree much of the time. If your tissues are highly saturated with PUFA, then yes, it will be harder on the body to process.

 

[paymanz]

FFA are an energy source. Energy is protective during stress. Glucose is also release from the liver during times of stress. Neither of these things are harmful.
Cortisol is an energy releasing hormone, and stress is nothing more than a need for energy.
These are not the cause of the stress. That's the same logic as Cholesterol being the cause of heart disease, when cholesterol is there to protect.
If you have sufficient energy (calories and nutrients) in the digestive tract all of the time, then cortisol will obviously stay lower since you don't need to be releasing stored energy. But if you are trying to lower your bodyfat, good luck.

There is NOTHING wrong with releasing FFA (bodyfat) for energy. Unless you are never in a caloric deficit (which is probably a bad idea) you will be burning bodyfat to some degree much of the time. If your tissues are highly saturated with PUFA, then yes, it will be harder on the body to process.

But you agree cortisol is a sign of stress,and sugar is better than fat to keep cortisol low,at least its better than fat for doing so.

Does a low fat/fat free diet even increase cortisol?!

But a low carb diet raise cortisol for sure!

 

[James IV]

But you agree cortisol is a sign of stress,and sugar is better than fat to keep cortisol low,at least its better than fat for doing so.

Does a low fat/fat free diet even increase cortisol?!

But a low carb diet raise cortisol for sure!

You will always burn both fat and carbs, no matter what you eat. The ratios will change based on your diet, and activity.

Any diet that does not provide adequate energy (calories and nutrition) can raise cortisol, doesn't matter if it's high fat or high carb.

Cortisol is higher when carb or protein or even fat intake isn't sufficient to meet real time needs. This can happen in any diet composition.
The mitochondria will adjust to different dietary input which will change the cortisol response as well.

 

[Djukami]

The secret is, if you eat a large variety of nutritious foods, you don't have to worry about all the nuance. It's mostly folks that are scared of some category of real food that need to worry about how long thier fatty acids chains are, and how much vitamin K thier butthole is producing.

When having intolerance to certain amount of foods, yeah, unfortunately :/

I said nothing about mood. Being angry or moody is not the same as feeling calm or sleepy.
One of the big reason we have energy is to find food. If you eat a large meal that provides a variety of nutrition and energy, it will require a lot of energy to assimilate. This doesn't mean it's harmful. Most animals will sleep after consuming a large kill or finding an abundance of food. It doesn't mean it's hurting them.

I do think you should experiment with different foods and see what fits best for your lifestyle. What I'm saying is that there is no perfect ratio that will "work" all the time.

For instance I can eat the exact same macro based meal with different foods and have very different reaction. If I have rice, eggs and cottage cheese for a meal, it's very different than having steak and potatoes, even if the macronutrtion is exactly the same. Futhurmore, if I eat this meal at 9am, 1pm or 6pm will also make a huge difference in how I respond. Also how much activity and stress I had before the meal will change my body's response.

Sometimes food gives you energy, sometimes it makes you tired. Neither of these things mean it is good or bad for you. We as humans tend to get anxiety when we are tired during the work day, because it makes us less productive. But that's a societal issue, not a health issue. It's normal if we are lazy or tired sometimes, even during "working" hours. It doesn't mean you did something wrong. We likely just need some rest.

I really understand what you are saying. Society indeed makes us see certain foods as bad because how they makes us feel. But it's really unfortunate for me how I have hard time to digest a meal. Same meal, I have food coma. People around me, are just fine and ready to continue to work. I am in the state that most foods don't suit for me, because I am always knocked out after eating them. The moment I could indeed realize this was when I was doing intermittent fasting. Damn, I had never been so productive during the day, lol.

Btw, the IF folks defend this idea to eat one meal and during the night hours precisely for the fact that digesting foods make us tired. Rest and digest. Like you've mentioned, predators hunt in fast mode and then after eating, they will sleep. Actually, and seeing those studies that you build more muscle rapidly if you eat protein later in the day.
But then again, fast mode can be indeed a 'predator' mode, at least in my experience.

I am wondering if the idea of eating carbs during the day and protein (and I guess fat also) during the night makes sense. Dr. Pickering says, I think, to eat fruit in the morning, starch in the afternoon and protein at night.
Though most people say to start with protein in the morning to get your metabolism working.
So, whatever, it's better to indeed find out what works better with our lifestyle.

 

[Djukami]

Maybe the answer is to eat smaller and more frequent carb food,
And I'm not sure about this>"
But it would not be advantage if the person isn't very active."
Another point is that carb suppress free fatty acid in blood while dietary fat increase it.

You may have seen this quote by ray,


And this one I think shows a connection between free fatty acids and inflammation,
Inflammation Mediates Free Fatty Acid-induced Insulin Resistance

Well, then I read @tyw saying that he eats 1600 kcal as Carbs in 5 minutes and I am like: geez, what about spiking insulin? Is that even a thing? xD

 

[James IV]

When having intolerance to certain amount of foods, yeah, unfortunately :/

I really understand what you are saying. Society indeed makes us see certain foods as bad because how they makes us feel. But it's really unfortunate for me how I have hard time to digest a meal. Same meal, I have food coma. People around me, are just fine and ready to continue to work. I am in the state that most foods don't suit for me, because I am always knocked out after eating them. The moment I could indeed realize this was when I was doing intermittent fasting. Damn, I had never been so productive during the day, lol.

Btw, the IF folks defend this idea to eat one meal and during the night hours precisely for the fact that digesting foods make us tired. Rest and digest. Like you've mentioned, predators hunt in fast mode and then after eating, they will sleep. Actually, and seeing those studies that you build more muscle rapidly if you eat protein later in the day.
But then again, fast mode can be indeed a 'predator' mode, at least in my experience.

I am wondering if the idea of eating carbs during the day and protein (and I guess fat also) during the night makes sense. Dr. Pickering says, I think, to eat fruit in the morning, starch in the afternoon and protein at night.
Though most people say to start with protein in the morning to get your metabolism working.
So, whatever, it's better to indeed find out what works better with our lifestyle.

You may do "IF" anyway you like. It just means eating less often.

 

[paymanz]

Well, then I read @tyw saying that he eats 1600 kcal as Carbs in 5 minutes and I am like: geez, what about spiking insulin? Is that even a thing? xD

Im not sure,probably its not an issue for a healthy person.
we , human and most primates used to eat sweet fruits, its not against our nature.

I guess it mostly depends on how good your ability is to convert it to glycogen in liver and muscle(actually ray mentionednit as biggest factor to control blood sugar).the faster that happens the less glucose is available for lipogenesis.

You store 300_400 grams of glycogen in your liver and about 100g in your muscle,and some articles mentions 15g/kg body weight, that's big.so eating 1600 kcal in 5min should be no problem.of course if you have decent amylase in rice case.


Insulin sensitivity in general is important.