What is the magic of beef liver that can’t be replicated?

[BobbyJackson]

Hi guys,

So, going to try to keep this short. I’ve had some long lasting health issues that I’ve tried to solve for years using supplements, diets, etc. Nothing ever really made an impact, except taking some tyromix. So that suggested to me some hypo. With that said, most symptoms still remain.

Then I started eating raw beef liver every morning, about 50-100 grams, varying. I get results rapidly.
- Sleep statistics on Oura Ring go through the roof, higher sleep efficiency, higher deep sleep.
- Very strong sunlight sensitivity in eyes reduces heavily.
- Purple/blue colored circles around eyes start to recede and become less strong.
- Feel more energy, more calmness
- Feel more physical strength

So, this is great. The problem is, I stopped eating it for like 3 days because I didn’t have access to it and then the symptoms came back.

What I’m trying to figure out is, what’s the magic ingredient in beef liver that you seemingly can’t create with supplements, or at least, I’ve not been able to. I’ve tried dessicated beef liver supplements of many brands. I’ve tried Cod Liver Oil (I know, PUFA bois) for the high retinol content like liver, I’ve tried taking copper supplements to match high contents in liver, I’ve tried B vitamins, magnesium supplements, selenium, the list is never ending. You should see my drawer. It’s like a drug den of supplements.

I don’t really want to have to eat 100 grams of beef liver every day for the rest of my life. I want to be able to rapidly replenish what’s missing to a point where it’s not needed to eat it so frequently and I can miss it for a time. That’s why I want to find out what’s missing from the story. What could be the magic thing that beef liver is doing that’s so hard to replicate? For example, if I found out it was copper, I could just try to rapidly replenish copper to get my body into a better state faster and probably not have to consume so much liver.

So, wondering if anyone has any ideas of what’s going on.

 

[Sascha6990]

By the sound of it you have multiple deficiencies and I think eating liver for as long as you're enjoying it will correct them. When your stores of whatever was missing will be replenished, your body will tell you and liver will seem disgusting.

I think taking vitamins and minerals separately from food is not that efficient because there may be stuff in food that aids in their absorption and usage. That's just a thought though, I don't know if there are any studies on it.

 

[yerrag]

Beef liver is a whole food that gives you the fat soluble vitamins A D E K as well as non-heme iron and copper. As well as many co-factors that aren't available in supplements. They come together in a package that lends easily to absorption and thus they are utilized well by the body.

Sounds like you are very deficient in many of these nutrients as the intake of liver is addressing these deficiencies. That can easily happen when liver intake is avoided for it causing an increase in uric acid, which people think of in a negative way. Because it is no longer a regular offering in a dinner table, most people do not like its taste and texture.

I have a friend who has poor night vision, and has eczema since childhood. I think he lacks Vitamin A because of the lack of liver in his nutrition. He has begun taking beta-carotene, and he thinks it is vitamin A. But real vitamin A is retinol.

Many supplements that claim to provide vitamin A only provide beta-carotene, and people on supplements are liable to be deficient in Vitamin A if they avoid eating liver.

I read from the RPF wiki that accdg to Peat, vitamin A is also needed to enable conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone. So that makes the case for liver intake stronger.

But careful. Ray recommends only eating beef liver once a week. That is, after you get caught up with your deficiency.

 

[NommyWommy]

Hi guys,

So, going to try to keep this short. I’ve had some long lasting health issues that I’ve tried to solve for years using supplements, diets, etc. Nothing ever really made an impact, except taking some tyromix. So that suggested to me some hypo. With that said, most symptoms still remain.

Then I started eating raw beef liver every morning, about 50-100 grams, varying. I get results rapidly.
- Sleep statistics on Oura Ring go through the roof, higher sleep efficiency, higher deep sleep.
- Very strong sunlight sensitivity in eyes reduces heavily.
- Purple/blue colored circles around eyes start to recede and become less strong.
- Feel more energy, more calmness
- Feel more physical strength

So, this is great. The problem is, I stopped eating it for like 3 days because I didn’t have access to it and then the symptoms came back.

What I’m trying to figure out is, what’s the magic ingredient in beef liver that you seemingly can’t create with supplements, or at least, I’ve not been able to. I’ve tried dessicated beef liver supplements of many brands. I’ve tried Cod Liver Oil (I know, PUFA bois) for the high retinol content like liver, I’ve tried taking copper supplements to match high contents in liver, I’ve tried B vitamins, magnesium supplements, selenium, the list is never ending. You should see my drawer. It’s like a drug den of supplements.

I don’t really want to have to eat 100 grams of beef liver every day for the rest of my life. I want to be able to rapidly replenish what’s missing to a point where it’s not needed to eat it so frequently and I can miss it for a time. That’s why I want to find out what’s missing from the story. What could be the magic thing that beef liver is doing that’s so hard to replicate? For example, if I found out it was copper, I could just try to rapidly replenish copper to get my body into a better state faster and probably not have to consume so much liver.

So, wondering if anyone has any ideas of what’s going on.

How do you eat the beef liver raw? Thanks

 

[BobbyJackson]

How do you eat the beef liver raw? Thanks

It may sound odd but I find it much more palatable when it's raw. It doesn't taste that strong. I have eaten raw liver from a local butcher in Spain and it was not very tasty. However, at home I'm able to get high quality grass-fed liver which arrives frozen and vacuum packed. So it's very fresh when you defrost it, it has likely not been sitting around anywhere for any extended length of time. I find that liver like this is much, much easier to eat than cooking it. I find that cooking it, makes it feel a lot heavier to eat and tastes stronger. I suspect that cooking it increases the protein content, or something like that. I've heard that when eggs are cooked, it increases the protein content. For me, it's easier to eat a lot of very runny eggs than a few hard boiled eggs. The hard boiled feel super heavy (and tastes awful). I'd say that it's very similar to liver in that sense. Raw is much easier and tastier to eat than fully cooked.

Beef liver is a whole food that gives you the fat soluble vitamins A D E K as well as non-heme iron and copper. As well as many co-factors that aren't available in supplements. They come together in a package that lends easily to absorption and thus they are utilized well by the body.

Sounds like you are very deficient in many of these nutrients as the intake of liver is addressing these deficiencies. That can easily happen when liver intake is avoided for it causing an increase in uric acid, which people think of in a negative way. Because it is no longer a regular offering in a dinner table, most people do not like its taste and texture.

I have a friend who has poor night vision, and has eczema since childhood. I think he lacks Vitamin A because of the lack of liver in his nutrition. He has begun taking beta-carotene, and he thinks it is vitamin A. But real vitamin A is retinol.

Many supplements that claim to provide vitamin A only provide beta-carotene, and people on supplements are liable to be deficient in Vitamin A if they avoid eating liver.

I read from the RPF wiki that accdg to Peat, vitamin A is also needed to enable conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone. So that makes the case for liver intake stronger.

But careful. Ray recommends only eating beef liver once a week. That is, after you get caught up with your deficiency.

I agree with that. I only started eating liver about 5 years ago. But I never ate it at this rate that I do now. I've always eaten tons of meat and animal products though.

I would say a lot of these issues started when I was around 14 years old, a year or so after I moved next to a farm. I have a feeling that the pesticides being sprayed on the farm affected me negatively somehow. My mom also became hypothyroid around the same time. I read a lot about how glyphosate can deplete copper, magnesium and other nutrients like glycine, etc. I'm certain that they were spraying that on the farms near us regularly. My diet at that age was also very bad. I ate a lot of fast food, never organ meats or anything like that, plenty of PUFAs.

I do think the major issue was living near a farm though, I just wish I knew what the exact mineral(s), vitamin(s) etc that it depleted so badly that it takes so much liver to get it back up.

 

[Blossom]

Another possibility is it could be the choline in liver that you need. Have you tried eggs to see if you get similar results?

Choline: An Essential Nutrient for Public Health that we’re not getting enough of in our diet

We were discussing choline at page 4 of another thread and we thought it was worthy of its own thread. According to the National Institutes of HealthTrusted Source, choline is an essential nutrient found in many foods. The brain and nervous system use it to regulate functions that include...

raypeatforum.com

 

[David PS]

How do you eat the beef liver raw? Thanks

I just chew mine.

 

[David PS]

Hi guys,

So, going to try to keep this short. I’ve had some long lasting health issues that I’ve tried to solve for years using supplements, diets, etc. Nothing ever really made an impact, except taking some tyromix. So that suggested to me some hypo. With that said, most symptoms still remain.

Then I started eating raw beef liver every morning, about 50-100 grams, varying. I get results rapidly.
- Sleep statistics on Oura Ring go through the roof, higher sleep efficiency, higher deep sleep.
- Very strong sunlight sensitivity in eyes reduces heavily.
- Purple/blue colored circles around eyes start to recede and become less strong.
- Feel more energy, more calmness
- Feel more physical strength

So, this is great. The problem is, I stopped eating it for like 3 days because I didn’t have access to it and then the symptoms came back.

What I’m trying to figure out is, what’s the magic ingredient in beef liver that you seemingly can’t create with supplements, or at least, I’ve not been able to. I’ve tried dessicated beef liver supplements of many brands. I’ve tried Cod Liver Oil (I know, PUFA bois) for the high retinol content like liver, I’ve tried taking copper supplements to match high contents in liver, I’ve tried B vitamins, magnesium supplements, selenium, the list is never ending. You should see my drawer. It’s like a drug den of supplements.

I don’t really want to have to eat 100 grams of beef liver every day for the rest of my life. I want to be able to rapidly replenish what’s missing to a point where it’s not needed to eat it so frequently and I can miss it for a time. That’s why I want to find out what’s missing from the story. What could be the magic thing that beef liver is doing that’s so hard to replicate? For example, if I found out it was copper, I could just try to rapidly replenish copper to get my body into a better state faster and probably not have to consume so much liver.

So, wondering if anyone has any ideas of what’s going on.

Welcome to the forum. You are asking a about good topic and the forum has very knowledgable people who will take the time to explain things.

 

[Peatful]

I agree with all of the above.

I will add:
100 grams is a nice amount of protein.

If you have had liver issues yourself in the past- beef liver is highly medicinal with the said vitamins, minerals and ENZYMES in an easy to digest protein (when eating raw).

quote from Ray:

liver has detoxifying enzymes, so it doesn’t have to be grass fed, it’s always naturally detoxified (about 96% free of the chemicals in muscle meats.)”

 

[BobbyJackson]

Another possibility is it could be the choline in liver that you need. Have you tried eggs to see if you get similar results?

Choline: An Essential Nutrient for Public Health that we’re not getting enough of in our diet

We were discussing choline at page 4 of another thread and we thought it was worthy of its own thread. According to the National Institutes of HealthTrusted Source, choline is an essential nutrient found in many foods. The brain and nervous system use it to regulate functions that include...

raypeatforum.com

I've thought about that in the past. I've tried supplementing choline but no effect. I've also had a habit of easily eating 4 boiled/poached eggs with very runny yolks per day for a while. Not **always** every day, but generally that's something I've eaten for many years pretty frequently. I love eggs. Could eat them all day.

Comparing 100 grams of beef liver choline content seems like 4 large eggs would be fairly equivalent in choline content. My eggs are likely more on the side of medium, but I'd say close enough that I'd notice some of this benefit from eggs too but I have never noticed it, despite eating them a lot.

I'm almost thinking that there could be a yet undiscovered nutrient in beef liver. I've been thinking a lot lately, how often are these measurements updated firstly, do we know the accuracy of these measurements? I found a food composition database for EU that has recent enough tests on beef liver (2019). I found it on a US database as well. The copper content for example, is 2x-3x less compared to what's shown on chronometer's measurement. I've also heard some people do independent testing of copper content and find 0 copper in their beef liver, even on very good organic farms. Which is crazy.

So I always find the measurement stuff a bit dubious and it seems like everyone takes it for granted. How sure are we about those measurements really? And are we sure we've discovered every essential nutrient in there? It's surprising sometimes when you look at how recent some of these things were discovered and then later thought of as essential. So I wonder if there's something like that going on, as crazy as it may sound.

 

[Blossom]

I've thought about that in the past. I've tried supplementing choline but no effect. I've also had a habit of easily eating 4 boiled/poached eggs with very runny yolks per day for a while. Not **always** every day, but generally that's something I've eaten for many years pretty frequently. I love eggs. Could eat them all day.

Comparing 100 grams of beef liver choline content seems like 4 large eggs would be fairly equivalent in choline content. My eggs are likely more on the side of medium, but I'd say close enough that I'd notice some of this benefit from eggs too but I have never noticed it, despite eating them a lot.

I'm almost thinking that there could be a yet undiscovered nutrient in beef liver. I've been thinking a lot lately, how often are these measurements updated firstly, do we know the accuracy of these measurements? I found a food composition database for EU that has recent enough tests on beef liver (2019). I found it on a US database as well. The copper content for example, is 2x-3x less compared to what's shown on chronometer's measurement. I've also heard some people do independent testing of copper content and find 0 copper in their beef liver, even on very good organic farms. Which is crazy.

So I always find the measurement stuff a bit dubious and it seems like everyone takes it for granted. How sure are we about those measurements really? And are we sure we've discovered every essential nutrient in there? It's surprising sometimes when you look at how recent some of these things were discovered and then later thought of as essential. So I wonder if there's something like that going on, as crazy as it may sound.

I agree with you on doubts about the actual nutrients in our foods. It doesn’t sound like choline for your situation but obviously there’s something helping you. I’m a firm believer in always listening to our body over information on nutrition calculators.

 

[BobbyJackson]

I agree with you on doubts about the actual nutrients in our foods. It doesn’t sound like choline for your situation but obviously there’s something helping you. I’m a firm believer in always listening to our body over information on nutrition calculators.

I agree totally on relying on the body. We could worry all day about overdosing on Vitamin A from the liver or something but I feel very good eating lots of liver. So that’s what I’ll go by.

The best part is that my oura ring also confirms that stuff is better. It’s not just sleep, my normally low HRV starts to skyrocket over the days I’m eating it as if I’m doing tons of hard workouts or something and I’m not. Just eating liver. Also my readiness score which I think is actually a pretty good score improves massively as well. It’s really interesting stuff.

 

[mm33]

I just chew mine.

Lol brilliant!!
Do you all eat it with other foods or in smoothies or just as a snack? I’ve heard some people cut it in small pieces and freeze it then swallow them?!?
I love liver but here in the ozarks i can find chicken liver in lots of c-stores but I’m sure they’re fried in canola or some other bad oil. I can’t find beef liver anywhere other than raw at the deli and my wife absolutely hates it so she won’t cook it plus she hates the smell and would rather i not cook it. So raw seems like a great solution but also seems very strange lol
Any good advice or just shut up and eat it?

 

[yerrag]

Lol brilliant!!
Do you all eat it with other foods or in smoothies or just as a snack? I’ve heard some people cut it in small pieces and freeze it then swallow them?!?
I love liver but here in the ozarks i can find chicken liver in lots of c-stores but I’m sure they’re fried in canola or some other bad oil. I can’t find beef liver anywhere other than raw at the deli and my wife absolutely hates it so she won’t cook it plus she hates the smell and would rather i not cook it. So raw seems like a great solution but also seems very strange lol
Any good advice or just shut up and eat it?

I find liver from freshly slaughtered beef to be the best. Second to that is liver frozen from fresh slaughter, but the longer it has been frozen the less the quality as even with being frozen, foods still degrade albeit slowly. But beggars can't be picky, so if you have a hard time finding the best quality liver, go with what you can find, be it organic or not. I don't have access to organic beef liver myself, but even Ray Peat doesn't even care if the beef liver is organic or not.

I heard this story from my dad long ago that a zoo struggled to have their tiger give birth. It turns out all the tiger needed was to be fed fresh raw liver. This pretty much aligns with predators in the wild going first for the liver after successfully hunting down their prey. They still have it in their instinct what is best for them and it's a good thing they didn't go to Ivy League schools to scare them away from liver with myths that internal organs increase uric acid production that cause gout.

 

[Healthseeker]

This is good thread. The thing about the dark circles around your eyes I can relate. You think it would be a clue. But I don't know what it is in the raw liver that's good for you. You say it has to be raw.

 

[BobbyJackson]

This is good thread. The thing about the dark circles around your eyes I can relate. You think it would be a clue. But I don't know what it is in the raw liver that's good for you. You say it has to be raw.

It's definitely a clue, I just don't know for what. I've seen it related to anemia and hypothyroid most often. I'm taking 6 drops of Tyromix every day, I don't feel hypothyroid anymore. I have done blood tests many times and never had any indication of anemia. I do also have very pale skin though. I've also heard them called allergic shiners but I don't have any symptoms of allergies at all...

I have noticed that this purple/blue discoloration around the eyes is more common in some places, I spot it in other people sometimes around the street. I just wonder what the cause of it is and what it means. I definitely noticed it way less when I spent time in Los Angeles, Austin and Miami. It seems to me that it's far less common in the US, at least in the places I've been there. I also felt better in the US, despite not eating properly and that's also shown on my Oura Ring. I'm from NL though. When I came back all my symptoms got worse again after a little while. It makes me wonder if there is something that is much less in the soils here that hasn't been depleted as much in US yet. When I check food composition databases, it does seem that the US on average has better nutrient quality in foods than we do, which makes some sense really. It could massively depend on where you're getting the majority of your food from though, these are averages.

We know that iodine got depleted from the soils a long time ago, we know that magnesium and copper has been depleting lower and lower for decades. So I'm thinking something along those lines, although perhaps not those exact minerals. Just that it's something like that. We are actually moving to the US anyways, so it'll be interesting to see when we're there for a long time.

 

[cs3000]

Then I started eating raw beef liver every morning, about 50-100 grams, varying. I get results rapidly.
- Sleep statistics on Oura Ring go through the roof, higher sleep efficiency, higher deep sleep.
- Very strong sunlight sensitivity in eyes reduces heavily.
- Purple/blue colored circles around eyes start to recede and become less strong.
- Feel more energy, more calmness
- Feel more physical strength

What I’m trying to figure out is, what’s the magic ingredient in beef liver that you seemingly can’t create with supplements, or at least, I’ve not been able to. I’ve tried dessicated beef liver supplements of many brands. I’ve tried Cod Liver Oil (I know, PUFA bois) for the high retinol content like liver, I’ve tried taking copper supplements to match high contents in liver, I’ve tried B vitamins, magnesium supplements, selenium, the list is never ending.

Did the b vitamins tests contain Riboflavin or similar amounts of b12?

I saw a study showing Vit A in supplements is commonly degraded maybe different if contains vit E for stability idk, retinol in liver is good form. But I wouldn't think that would have a rapid effect anyway takes a while / shouldn't drop off quick either

So all that's left out of what you've mentioned I can see is iron. Iron combined with vit A in liver is absorbed a lot better than iron alone. I've seen some people with fatigue mentioned feeling a lot better in a week even though it takes a while to raise it in bloodwork. there's some function on dopamine D2 receptors. What are your ferritin levels? maybe some sort of iron requiring enzyme disfunction that gets functional quick with more intake / loses function soon after stopping and the enzymes get renewed disfunctionally again. (But that's just speculation not sure on the science of that).

Something you could test is another meat source of iron that comes to the same amount for same length of time it usually takes to see results, combined with Retinol supp same amount at same time (but like I said there's some vit A stability issues in supplements so gotta pick a decent one that hasn't been sitting around for half a year above room temp)

Apart from that not sure, at least youve found something that works anyway and is possible to replicate most places

 

[BobbyJackson]

Did the b vitamins tests contain Riboflavin or similar amounts of b12?

I saw a study showing Vit A in supplements is commonly degraded maybe different if contains vit E for stability idk, retinol in liver is good form. But I wouldn't think that would have a rapid effect anyway takes a while / shouldn't drop off quick either

So all that's left out of what you've mentioned I can see is iron. Iron combined with vit A in liver is absorbed a lot better than iron alone. I've seen some people with fatigue mentioned feeling a lot better in a week even though it takes a while to raise it in bloodwork. there's some function on dopamine D2 receptors. What are your ferritin levels? maybe some sort of iron requiring enzyme disfunction that gets functional quick with more intake / loses function soon after stopping and the enzymes get renewed disfunctionally again. (But that's just speculation not sure on the science of that).

Something you could test is another meat source of iron that comes to the same amount for same length of time it usually takes to see results, combined with Retinol supp same amount at same time (but like I said there's some vit A stability issues in supplements so gotta pick a decent one that hasn't been sitting around for half a year above room temp)

Apart from that not sure, at least youve found something that works anyway and is possible to replicate most places

After reading Morley Robbin's work, I don't think that iron deficiency really exists. I think it's really a copper deficiency as copper is used in the iron recycling system. You'll have tons of iron already stored but you need copper to actually get it into action. This is all reliant on ceruloplasmin, which relies heavily on retinol and copper to be created. Liver is very high in copper, it's really one of the only foods with such a high concentration of copper and retinol in one. It's very hard to find that level of copper anywhere else, let alone in combination with a very high amount of retinol. That's why Morley is also a big advocate of beef liver.

So it could be that. The thing is I've tried supplementing copper and it doesn't do it. I have not tried supplementing retinol mind you, but I'm trying to add colostrum into my milk now. I'm a heavy meat eater generally, I eat a lot of meat and animal products every day. So I'd be the last person you'd expect to have an iron deficiency anemia and the tests I've had done come up fine.

I think that what you said about the enzyme is possible though - but I think it would be to do with ceruloplasmin. From Morley Robbin's work, he says that over time in deficiency the creation of ceruloplasmin seems to become very damaged. So it doesn't function as well anymore. He said that it takes a while for it to start getting into a high functioning state again. So it could be that. It's along the same lines of what you're saying, just to do with copper rather than iron.

If that's true I'd hope that continuing this liver eating ritual for a long time will eventually result in my ceruloplasmin getting into a better functioning state so that it requires less to function well. So that's my hope is that it's something like that.

 

[David PS]

Lol brilliant!!
Do you all eat it with other foods or in smoothies or just as a snack? I’ve heard some people cut it in small pieces and freeze it then swallow them?!?
I love liver but here in the ozarks i can find chicken liver in lots of c-stores but I’m sure they’re fried in canola or some other bad oil. I can’t find beef liver anywhere other than raw at the deli and my wife absolutely hates it so she won’t cook it plus she hates the smell and would rather i not cook it. So raw seems like a great solution but also seems very strange lol
Any good advice or just shut up and eat it?

I ate liver reqularly as a child. I was extremely underweight and my mother cooked fresh liver about once or twice a month. She always served it with boiled potatoes. As an adult, I have come to prefer the combination of cooked liver and onions.

Currently, I just eat my liver raw. I am okay with the taste and the cleanup after eating is easier. My co-op sells sells fresh liver in 5-7 oz packs. I generally freeze all of the packs but one. I recall watching a Chris Masterjohn video in which he stated that liver could be frozen for 6 months and it would not affect the folate content. Other components of the liver may degrade over time. The liver that I buy is never in the freezer long enough to get freezer burn. I have been eating raw liver for years and I am still living to tell the tale.

I cut small bits of liver from the piece in the fridge and eat it raw. There is no need to cut it into perfect squares. I just put it in my mouth and chew.

Lately, I cannot always find liver at the co-op as I have in the past. I may need to find a new source.

 

[Healthseeker]

It's definitely a clue, I just don't know for what. I've seen it related to anemia and hypothyroid most often. I'm taking 6 drops of Tyromix every day, I don't feel hypothyroid anymore. I have done blood tests many times and never had any indication of anemia. I do also have very pale skin though. I've also heard them called allergic shiners but I don't have any symptoms of allergies at all...

I have noticed that this purple/blue discoloration around the eyes is more common in some places, I spot it in other people sometimes around the street. I just wonder what the cause of it is and what it means. I definitely noticed it way less when I spent time in Los Angeles, Austin and Miami. It seems to me that it's far less common in the US, at least in the places I've been there. I also felt better in the US, despite not eating properly and that's also shown on my Oura Ring. I'm from NL though. When I came back all my symptoms got worse again after a little while. It makes me wonder if there is something that is much less in the soils here that hasn't been depleted as much in US yet. When I check food composition databases, it does seem that the US on average has better nutrient quality in foods than we do, which makes some sense really. It could massively depend on where you're getting the majority of your food from though, these are averages.

We know that iodine got depleted from the soils a long time ago, we know that magnesium and copper has been depleting lower and lower for decades. So I'm thinking something along those lines, although perhaps not those exact minerals. Just that it's something like that. We are actually moving to the US anyways, so it'll be interesting to see when we're there for a long time.

I just read that liver has alot of glycogen in it. I thought maybe that had to do with it. But I can't see if the glycogen is broke down by heat. I done some more reading and it says the liver has endocrine functions meaning hormones. That seems likely.