What Is The Least Damaging Mind Altering Substance?

[jaguar43]

Cabergoline, at the very least, had little to nothing to do with LSD discovery. The Italian scientists who discovered it were working on synthetic 6,8-dimethylergoline derivatives, ie: the exact opposite side of ergot derivatives as the lysergic acid group. LSD has as much to do with Cabergoline as aspirin has to do with GHB. Similar chemical structure can lead to WIDELY differing reactions when you're talking about organic chemistry. All you do by associating them together reveals your lack of knowledge on the subject and subsequently, the reason I shouldn't be wasting my time discussing matters with you that you don't understand.

For the rest of you people who can understand the science, LSD has a MUCH stronger track record of inducing schizophrenic like changes in the brain (learned helplessness, anxiety, depression) due to it's ability to mimic serotonin in the brain and bind to 5-HT (2A) serotonin receptors. I don't personally know of ANY science anywhere that indicates that LSD reduces helplessness. In fact, almost all of the common side-effects, even those accepted and agreed to be established LSD users, are very strongly indicative of it's pro-serotonin functions. Even the commonly accepted remedy to a 'bad high', Chlorpromazine indicates LSD's role as a serotonin mimic (Chlorpromazine is a powerful serotonin antagonist).

I guess it boils down to this: if you or anyone else truly thought LSD functioned as a dopamine agonist (or more generally speaking, if LSD were good for you), why wouldn't they take it every day after getting off work? Or hell, for that matter, why not take it before going to work? You can take bromocriptine before work no problem. Why not LSD?

Or more straight to the point; why in the hell would someone with no prior or post history of mental illness, castrate themselves upon their first dosage of LSD, but not upon their first dosage of ethyl-alcohol? The answer....I suspect....is because LSD does bad things inside you brain. But...ya know...I can't be sure.....

O wow you seem so cool, have anything to say about bromocriptine and lisuride for that matter. Listen why don't you take your bible thumping buttt back to paleohacks where they can listen to your gospels of capitalism. We all been down that route( paleo, lsd bad, sugar bad, capitalism good) so don't even tried to convince us. You are making agruments that are not even backed up, PLEASE SHOW STUDIES BEFORE LAYING DOWN YOUR RELIGIOUS AND CONSERVATIVE IDEOLOGY ON THIS FORUM.

 

[Asimov]

Lol...you just proved my point for me. LSD abuse has disrupted the serotonin/dopamine balance in your brain.

To all rational observers, just remember; you can be like me, or be like jag. Pretty obvious decision.

 

[jaguar43]

Lol...you just proved my point for me. LSD abuse has disrupted the serotonin/dopamine balance in your brain.

To all rational observers, just remember; you can be like me, or be like jag. Pretty obvious decision.

Are you kidding me you have never proved anything. You couldn't then when I school you in economics and you couldn't now. You are going against years of research to justify your own beliefs. Even my psychology teacher promotes lsd research. Who are we to believe, years of research from some of the best scientist we seen, or you a nobody who shows religious and conservative tendencies.

 

[jaguar43]

psychedelic have been around long than we think. The natives of brazil use Ayahuasca which is a mixture of dmt and mao b inhibitors. The natives of mexico use peyote in religion ceremonies

 

[Asimov]

I don't even know what you're talking about in reference in economics. If we've ever debated anything before, I sure don't remember it.

Keep it on topic. I'm not on here to have **** measuring contests. I'm here to discuss and learn. If you want to explain why your college professor promotes LSD use (or is it just research, because that sure as hell isn't indicative of promoting it's use) then I'd be happy to listen and retort.

Otherwise....meh, you don't seem to have any opinions or insights of your own, and I think I've made my case. Hallucinations, and the drugs that promote them, seem to either induce a strong serotonin response, or act directly as a serotonin mimic. The fact that natural, non-drug induced hallucinations are ONLY accompanied by exceedingly stressful experiences should give you some indication of the metabolic action of the physiology.

 

[Mephisto]

Check out the work of David Lewis Williams on the use of psychedelic plants throughout history. They have had a huge effect on us.
Maybe a little too fantastical for most, but Graham Hancocks Supernatural discusses it a lot, even if you don't like his conclusions his references are worth investigating for yourself.

As for my own experience, I was generally always against drugs, wouldn't even drink alcohol. Still I was drawn to LSD before I knew of Peat's ideas and it helped me a lot during my depression. It helped me with negative self thought, social anxiety, just made me happier... it's been a while since I took it so I can't remember exactly.
I think a lot of the negative experiences people have with it is because of an inapropriate environment and because they are scared (consciously or not).

 

[jb4566]

Cabergoline, at the very least, had little to nothing to do with LSD discovery. The Italian scientists who discovered it were working on synthetic 6,8-dimethylergoline derivatives, ie: the exact opposite side of ergot derivatives as the lysergic acid group. LSD has as much to do with Cabergoline as aspirin has to do with GHB. Similar chemical structure can lead to WIDELY differing reactions when you're talking about organic chemistry. All you do by associating them together reveals your lack of knowledge on the subject and subsequently, the reason I shouldn't be wasting my time discussing matters with you that you don't understand.

For the rest of you people who can understand the science, LSD has a MUCH stronger track record of inducing schizophrenic like changes in the brain (learned helplessness, anxiety, depression) due to it's ability to mimic serotonin in the brain and bind to 5-HT (2A) serotonin receptors. I don't personally know of ANY science anywhere that indicates that LSD reduces helplessness. In fact, almost all of the common side-effects, even those accepted and agreed to be established LSD users, are very strongly indicative of it's pro-serotonin functions. Even the commonly accepted remedy to a 'bad high', Chlorpromazine indicates LSD's role as a serotonin mimic (Chlorpromazine is a powerful serotonin antagonist).

I guess it boils down to this: if you or anyone else truly thought LSD functioned as a dopamine agonist (or more generally speaking, if LSD were good for you), why wouldn't they take it every day after getting off work? Or hell, for that matter, why not take it before going to work? You can take bromocriptine before work no problem. Why not LSD?

Or more straight to the point; why in the hell would someone with no prior or post history of mental illness, castrate themselves upon their first dosage of LSD, but not upon their first dosage of ethyl-alcohol? The answer....I suspect....is because LSD does bad things inside you brain. But...ya know...I can't be sure.....

People do not take LSD everyday after work because:

1. The trip lasts 10-12 hours on average, and not many people have that amount of free time
2. The average person is very misinformed about a ton of things. For example I'm sure everyone knows someone who eats a vegan diet, low in sugar, high in PUFA, low in saturated fat, and does chronic steady state cardio, etc...
3. Lsd has a built in mechanism that prevents the substances abuse, tolerance builds very rapidly, one would not be able to ingest the substance everyday and get the same effect...

 

[jb4566]

Also, I believe that this is the pharmacological explanation behind the long term benefits of lsd:

lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) caused marked reductions in the density of 5-HT2 receptors as has been observed in vivo

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8388988


Assuming that this reduction in receptor density is a long-term effect (which most research indicates that is is), then alleviation of learned helplessness would be the result of lsd use (which is supported very strongly by anecdotal reports).

 

[jb4566]

Or more straight to the point; why in the hell would someone with no prior or post history of mental illness, castrate themselves upon their first dosage of LSD, but not upon their first dosage of ethyl-alcohol? The answer....I suspect....is because LSD does bad things inside you brain. But...ya know...I can't be sure.....

People don't need to castrate themselves when drinking alcohol, the alcohol does it for them... Here is a quote from the book "The Testosterone Syndrome" by Eugene Shippen MD:

Alterations in liver function involve the important p450 system- a primary processing system that eliminates chemicals, hormones, drugs, and metabolic waste products from the body. Among its many duties is the task of excreting excess estrogen from the body. We will find that a wide variety of factors (including alcohol intake) can impair this system and tend to do so with age. In many individuals, this results in a gradual buildup of estrogen. In fact, the P450 system may be the most important factor in metabolic andropause

 

[jaguar43]

I don't even know what you're talking about in reference in economics. If we've ever debated anything before, I sure don't remember it.

Keep it on topic. I'm not on here to have d*** measuring contests. I'm here to discuss and learn. If you want to explain why your college professor promotes LSD use (or is it just research, because that sure as hell isn't indicative of promoting it's use) then I'd be happy to listen and retort.

Otherwise....meh, you don't seem to have any opinions or insights of your own, and I think I've made my case. Hallucinations, and the drugs that promote them, seem to either induce a strong serotonin response, or act directly as a serotonin mimic. The fact that natural, non-drug induced hallucinations are ONLY accompanied by exceedingly stressful experiences should give you some indication of the metabolic action of the physiology.

I have taken lsd before. A friend gave it to me before class. I took half a tab just because I did know if there were other things in it like doi or dox. After about 15 to 30 min the colors had these enormous increase in brightness and glow. I could not stop laughing, during class I felt like i could speak my mind clearer and not worried what others thought of it. I went home laughing and could not stop, Though i couldn't fall asleep until 3 in the morning, it was very interesting.

My teacher was ninety years old at the time. He studied in the late 40's through 50's within the lsd era. He talk about how a famous psychology promote lsd and became a hindu or something. He had various chances to try but he said he was married and did want it to change who he was. He said basically what ray peat has said about perception, but he was a behaviorist and promoted skinners ideas.

Yes your right lsd does increase serotonin, but the problem is that the neuroscientist are always in the mindset of counting transmitter and sites. But counting is not really going to tell you anything . Like ray peat has said, he does not believe in the standard ideas of the science field.

Note 1: I don’t want to imply that the receptor theory is wrong just because it allows for the introduction of innumerable experimental artifacts; it is primarily wrong because it is tied to the profoundly irrelevant “membrane theory” of cell regulation.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/se ... sion.shtml

If this is true than we really don't know what happens when we take drugs, and i remember that in a interview he said that some ssri's don't even increase serotonin in the way people think. ( its the interview with the herb doctors and is the one with gaining weight)

To assume that hallucinations are bad only because we hallucinate when we going hungry in the middle of the dessert as a stress reaction is wrong . There are many psychedelics that do not make us see what we want it that moment of hallucinating, People who have taken Ayahuasca have said that it feels like dying and being reborn again, some said it was like traveling around space. My close friend who has done a lot of acid has said that he can hear colors and taste sound. He also experience the ability to read minds when he is touching that person. Its probably due to the electric waves that occur when thoughts are being thought and colors being induce.

Also to assume that serotonin is the only reason why we hallucinate is wrong as well. If i read this study correctly it says that dopamine d2 has some role

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9698051

Here is another study I was looking at for information on lisuride and lsd on the potent of dopamine.

http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_v ... artID=3371

There are many scientist to promote lsd when it first was discovered ( I wont list them because I think you have the capability to search for yourself). LSD has become the poster boy for psychedelics disuse in America. Spiritual awaking is something i didnt go into, but the friend I refer to earlier is a hindu and student of eastern religions. I am sure you can email mr peat if you still want more info on it.

Hofmann's Potion - Albert Hofmann LSD Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpSLjdPiSH8

If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite.
william blake

 

[4peatssake]

My teacher was ninety years old at the time. He studied in the late 40's through 50's within the lsd era. He talk about how a famous psychology promote lsd and became a hindu or something.

He was probably talking about Richard Alpert, better known as Ram Dass.

In the 1960s, as Richard Alpert, a (psychology) professor at Harvard, he and his colleague, Timothy Leary, were fired from their positions for experiments with psychedelics that involved students. Whereas Leary went on to greater depths of psychedelia, Alpert went to India where he met his Guru. He came back as Baba Ram Dass.

 

[HDD]

RP - "This is partly because of the involvement of the drug industry, but the U.S. government also played a role in setting a pattern of confused and perverse interpretation of serotonin physiology, by its policy of denigrating and incriminating LSD, a powerful serotonin (approximate) antagonist, by any means possible, for example claiming that it causes genetic damage and provokes homicidal or suicidal violence. The issue of genetic damage was already disproved in the 1960s, but this was never publicly acknowledged by the National Institutes of Mental Health or other government agency. The government’s irresponsible actions helped to create the drug culture, in which health warnings about drugs were widely disregarded, because the government had been caught in blatant fraud. In more recent years, government warnings about tryptophan supplements have been widely dismissed, because the government has so often lied. Even when the public health agencies try to do something right, they fail, because they have done so much wrong.

In animal studies LSD, and other anti-serotonin agents, increase playfulness and accelerate learning, and cause behavioral impairment only at very high doses. While reserpine was used medically for several decades, and was eventually found to have harmful side effects, medical research in LSD was stopped before its actual side effects could be discovered. The misrepresentations about LSD, as a powerful antiserotonin agent, allowed a set of cultural stereotypes about serotonin to be established. Misconceptions about serotonin and melatonin and tryptophan, which are metabolically interrelated, have persisted, and it seems that the drug industry has exploited these mistakes to promote the “new generation” of psychoactive drugs as activators of serotonin responses. If LSD makes people go berserk, as the government claimed, then a product to amplify the effects of serotonin should make people sane."

The bolded part is the reason for Ray Peat's references to LSD. I don't believe he is promoting it's recreational use.

 

[HDD]

Btw, I am not condemning anyone, I am just pointing out his reasons for discussing it in the article. So that being said, I don't have a clue which drug is the least damaging. I am thankful that I survived my "party" days.

 

[aquaman]

I guess it boils down to this: if you or anyone else truly thought LSD functioned as a dopamine agonist (or more generally speaking, if LSD were good for you), why wouldn't they take it every day after getting off work? Or hell, for that matter, why not take it before going to work? You can take bromocriptine before work no problem. Why not LSD?

you can take LSD most days, it's called micro-dosing at around 10mcg. Read about James Fadiman and his experiments.

Anything is dose dependent. Aspirin may be good for people in certain circumstances, but not if they take 100 pills at a time.

 

[TeslaFan]

Asking if there is "least damaging" mind altering substance leaves no option that some mind altering substances may not be damaging at all. Why is it assumed that they must be damaging? Research on LSD, Psilocybin, and DMT do not point to any toxicity. Unsafe / unsupervised environment can be fatal to a person in deep hallucinations, as much as it is to a person under influence of alcohol or sleeping pills. There is conclusive scientific evidence for toxicity of alcohol, and even tylenol, but there isn't ANY evidence for toxicity of LSD, Psilocybin, Psilocin, or DMT.

Having said that, I tried Salvia Divinorum, a mind altering substance which may or may not be damaging. Very little research on it. For a fresh change, it is a non-serotonin related substance. Albert Hofmann wrote about trying to isolate the active substance but failed. Later it was discovered as Salvinorin A.
I tried what's considered a mild dose, which causes no hallucinations but more of a high and deeper insight. It was a wonderful experience. I felt being in a room where I grew up and it felt emotionally very real.

Other than that, I think lisuride is also mind-altering, although without hallucinations, and in a subtle way.

 

[Parsifal]

Old topic but speaking of Grof and Holotropic breathing, isn't it the exact opposite of a Buteyko/Peat approach with hyperventilation?

 

[Parsifal]

Isn't your brain producing some DMT while meditating? I have a lot of hypnagnonic hallucinations when I meditate now...

 

[Such_Saturation]

Well actually if serotonin was repressing a castration complex, the LSD did its job flawlessly

 

[Parsifal]

post 97647 Well actually if serotonin was repressing a castration complex, the LSD did its job flawlessly

 

[Integral]

Not to scare-monger but I had a stint experimenting with drugs second year of University. Ended up very badly for me, had a mental health crisis but managed to get excellent support, put in a tonne of effort and managed to recover but the whole ordeal lasted around nine months of severe illness. Then, was on medication a further year and a half. Only stopped taking meds last month.

Whilst for most people, recreational drug use is fine, some people are at risk of developing a serious mental illness. It's a small risk admittedly but I've seen it happen too many times now to not acknowledge it as a very real concern.