What Is Peat's General Stance On Fruit Sugars Vs Sucrose

CLASH

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@Cirion
From a digestive perspective, a 1:1 ratio, from what I read is more ideal. Many people have issues digesting fructose alone or in greater quantity than glucose. Fructose in many people requires the addition of glucose to be absorped in the GI tract. When the ratio of fructose to glucose is elevated past 1:1, people can begin to have problems with the excess fructose leading to endotoxin and bacterial fermentation.

“This capacity varies widely within the population for reasons that are yet unknown; however, it has been estimated that up to 50% of the U.S. population (Gibson et al., 2007) is unable to absorb 25 g of pure fructose as evaluated in clinical studies. In clinical trials, it was shown that up to 80% of healthy controls were unable to absorb a 50 g fructose load (Braden, 2009).”

Riby et al. (1993) noted the facilitating effect of glucose on fructose absorption, and titration experiments in animals showed that a minimum of 1:1 is the optimal ratio of glucose:fructose. Clinical trials verify that this is likewise the case for humans (Ravich and Bayless, 1983; Rumessen and Gudmand-Høyer, 1986; Truswell et al., 1988; Densupsoontorn et al., 2007).”

Fructose Malabsorption and Intolerance: Effects of Fructose with and without Simultaneous Glucose Ingestion

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As for the starch aspect I think as long as you can meet your nutritional requirements in other ways, sucrose and combinations of free fructose and glucose that stay at the 1:1 ratio or are glucose heavy will always be better than starch. Although I think white potatoes and white rice are probably some of the best options to eat if you wanted to eat starch. With white rice though, you might as well eat sucrose, so that really leaves you with potatoes.
 
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Cirion

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Interesting. Makes sense, basically goes along with the general sentiment that healthy individuals can handle higher sugar than unhealthy people can. I know I seem to be more stable on higher fats at the moment.
 

CLASH

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@Cirion
I actually saw your post with whats going on with you. I had a similar experience in the past trying to do the same thing. I was going to post on your thread but I got caught up with work and then it slipped my mind.

I have found that having a baseline of higher fat provides me with stability and long term energy and stress resistance as well as ability to last between meals. Then i add the sugar on top. If you go through kreeese’s thread I made a few post talking about hypothetical mechanisms (or you can search for the posts by clicking on my username I think). I have found that the macro ratios laid out by the perfect health diet seems to be a good starting point,(switching thier starch recommendation with sugars and increasing the total amount the sugars from 150g to 200g or more if neccesary) with the rationale behind the ratios pretty interesting. Currently i’ve been at around 140-160g of fat a day mostly from beef fat/tallow, 200-250g of sucrose from cane sugar soda and some fruit, and 120-140g of protein from beef, organs and some fish. I get my fiber and some missing nutrients from carrots and boiled green veggies like kale and broccoli. I started with the milk and Oj and adding sucrose to the milk and what not but I felt terrible. I had similar symptoms to you I think; poor sleep, no libido (especially coming of low carb/high fat where My libido was sky high) and lack of mental stability with constant adrenaline rushes from my blood sugar dropping. It took me some time to keep experimenting and figuring out what worked but eventually i came to the same diet I was eating before with high fat (cooked green veg, beef fat, beef, and some seafood) plus some added sugar, carrots and fruit.
 

Cirion

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@Cirion
I actually saw your post with whats going on with you. I had a similar experience in the past trying to do the same thing. I was going to post on your thread but I got caught up with work and then it slipped my mind.

I have found that having a baseline of higher fat provides me with stability and long term energy and stress resistance as well as ability to last between meals. Then i add the sugar on top. If you go through kreeese’s thread I made a few post talking about hypothetical mechanisms (or you can search for the posts by clicking on my username I think). I have found that the macro ratios laid out by the perfect health diet seems to be a good starting point,(switching thier starch recommendation with sugars and increasing the total amount the sugars from 150g to 200g or more if neccesary) with the rationale behind the ratios pretty interesting. Currently i’ve been at around 140-160g of fat a day mostly from beef fat/tallow, 200-250g of sucrose from cane sugar soda and some fruit, and 120-140g of protein from beef, organs and some fish. I get my fiber and some missing nutrients from carrots and boiled green veggies like kale and broccoli. I started with the milk and Oj and adding sucrose to the milk and what not but I felt terrible. I had similar symptoms to you I think; poor sleep, no libido (especially coming of low carb/high fat where My libido was sky high) and lack of mental stability with constant adrenaline rushes from my blood sugar dropping. It took me some time to keep experimenting and figuring out what worked but eventually i came to the same diet I was eating before with high fat (cooked green veg, beef fat, beef, and some seafood) plus some added sugar, carrots and fruit.

Very interesting man. You sound almost just like me. On KETO I had as high as 300g fat a day, and at my peak my libido was high as f***, I want to get that back, haha. At my peak, I even found myself attracted to women I normally didn't find attractive (overweight and such) - just wanna be clear, nothing against overweight women in general, lest anyone get offended, I'm just putting that out there. I'm annoyed that so far I haven't gotten to that point on Peat, even on sky high calories, but like you said I suspect it's the fat and cholesterol in particular. I used to usually eat like 12 eggs a day on Keto, and a pound of beef every day. that's a sh** ton of cholesterol, and probably was my magic bullet to high libido. Ray Peat suggests 600mg of cholesterol, but I might have had more like 4000+ mg of cholesterol on Keto lol. I find myself disagreeing with RP's suggestion of super low fat as such, even if you can metabolize sugar better, you're still missing on a lot of cholesterol goodness! lol

So I find myself disagreeing with being neurotic about avoiding PUFA. I do agree that avoiding nuts, vegetable oils etc is wise though. But I think it's ridiculous to avoid excellent foods like eggs because they have trace PUFA's. Eggs are like food from the gods lol. I bet my libido would have been out of this freakin world on Keto if I had avoided nut butters and replaced it with more saturated fats like coconut oil, cheese, beef, eggs etc.

I've read KREESE's whole thread. Lots of excellent things learned from his experiences, and I think I'd thrive on a very similar diet.

I'm probably gonna start pushing back up to as high as 50-60% calories from fat. I did 40-45% yesterday and found that my libido seems to be slowly coming back - felt pretty good this morning, if you know what I mean lol.

If you note, almost all of the most successful people here on these forums have all done the same thing - High fats (saturated), High sugar (all/most carb from sugar, not starch). There are almost no people here that thrive on 80/10/10 that I can see at least.

Anyways, sorry to derail the original thread, lol.
 
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Im sure peat would still prefer table sugar to starch even if that was the only available source of carbohydrate (outside of milk) for a day or maybe even more. Im pretty sure Peat himself has said that he NEVER eats starch except masa harina once in a full moon. He never eats potatoes. Table sugar is the bees knees and you should be getting plenty of vitamins and minerals from elsewhere in your diet so it shouldnt even be an issue... In my opinion all starches suck hard. Potatoes were actually the worst offender for me when I was hypo (inflammation, lowered libido brain fog). The best one was white rice but that gave me weird ejaculation problems and enlargement of the chest area probably because of the 5-Ar inhibition. I know someones gonna say "thats only rice bran" but im pretty sure rice still has some of the same or similar chemicals in it. I was on propecia at one time though so keep that in mind I doubt anyone without that kind of history would get similar symptoms. Table sugars just pure beautiful refined fuel I don't get why people on here dont eat more of it.

Yes I know what he eats personally. But he's also said this, this and this from the other day:

"It looks like there might not have been a separation of the starch, in which case, it would be similar to eating the whole potato, which is o.k. if there’s no digestive problem.."

so the average person who comes here and sees his personal diet and then sees that starch comes down to their digestion, they will decide for themselves if they want to eat exactly like him or if they want to still eat rice and roots because they know their digestion is fine and they know milk and oj as a staple won't work for them. There is his own diet which is the real Peat diet but then there is what he's said about other foods and how they can work. It's really not that complicated.

Even this forum's lord and savior sweet JP avoids the starches

"Even?" Like I'm supposed to care about what a guy who thinks high serotonin is good and sugar is poison thinks about "starch?"

best video by a flat-earther yet:

 
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CLASH

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@Cirion
My keto experience was the same as yours. I’d do 12 eggs a day and 1lb of beef with close to 8 oz of butter and then 8oz to 1lb of greens. My libido was consitently through the roof and I was attracted to women in a similar manner as you. My preference was definetly for thicker women. Thin girls had much less appeal.

I still go back and forth on the eggs in my mind, if I could find tallow/meat fed chickens i’d be pretty happy. For now I’ve been using organs due to the PUFA consideration. But theres days were I seriously considering adding them back in... My cholesterol averages 500-600mg right now although on keto is was 1000-2000 depending on liver days and what not.

It took me about a week to get my libido back with more fat. Also I lost around 7lbs all off my abdomen in those 7 days. Since then no issue, my digestion is much better, no more adrenaline rushes from blood sugar crashes, and my mood/ mind is a consistent cool/ calm/ collected.

I think for me the question would have been what would keto have been like if I was eating sucrose then to in conjunction with all the fat.
 

Cirion

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@Cirion
My keto experience was the same as yours. I’d do 12 eggs a day and 1lb of beef with close to 8 oz of butter and then 8oz to 1lb of greens. My libido was consitently through the roof and I was attracted to women in a similar manner as you. My preference was definetly for thicker women. Thin girls had much less appeal.

I still go back and forth on the eggs in my mind, if I could find tallow/meat fed chickens i’d be pretty happy. For now I’ve been using organs due to the PUFA consideration. But theres days were I seriously considering adding them back in... My cholesterol averages 500-600mg right now although on keto is was 1000-2000 depending on liver days and what not.

It took me about a week to get my libido back with more fat. Also I lost around 7lbs all off my abdomen in those 7 days. Since then no issue, my digestion is much better, no more adrenaline rushes from blood sugar crashes, and my mood/ mind is a consistent cool/ calm/ collected.

I think for me the question would have been what would keto have been like if I was eating sucrose then to in conjunction with all the fat.

So cool man!! You sure you aren't my long missing twin?? Haha! Sounds like our diets were almost EXACTLY the same! I also went through a stick of butter a day along with the beef and eggs lol. I often put like a whole stick along with the eggs.

What I have found works better to prepare eggs to minimize the negative responses - soft boil! Scrambled really causes problems with the PUFA in eggs, and I was getting negative responses from cooking them that way. I seem to do LOTS better with soft boiling, ideally minimize the cook time such that the yolks don't even completely harden.

You wanna know what's interesting? For a brief period of time when I quit keto I decided to do Green/fruit smoothies in the morning, so I was still super high fat but introduced a small amount (150-200g) carbs, mostly from sugar a day. I believe, when I was doing that, my libido was actually slightly even more than it was on Keto. My libido would be high as f*** after this smoothie which was loaded with fats and sugar. Only reason I quit that, was because like I said before, 150-200g was a little too low on carbs, I think, I started getting chronic pains. Funny though, that what I was doing was almost Peat at that point (except, I sometimes put Nut butters in the smoothie... only thing I did wrong mostly, and maybe too many veggies, getting endotoxins). I think, looking back, it may have been the nut butters more so than being low carb that caused the pains. I do think you need a decent amount of carbs especially if you lift though, prolly more like 200-300g a day minimum.

I'm so happy, that I think I finally after all these years, am so close to finding the ideal diet for me :): Thanks RP! This might not be for everyone necessarily, so it's definitely why I think most people need to just experiment and try all sorts of diets until they find what works for them.

Very cool man about losing 7 lbs off your stomach, I got lots of stomach to lose haha. I'm excited to get similar results which I know I will because I've done this way of eating before...!

I want to start introducing Oysters to my diet. That's a massive libido boosting food as well from what I've heard, probably because it has an INSANE amount of zinc in it!

I really don't think PUFA's are *as* bad as RP makes them out to be. What I think matters more, is your ratio of SFA's to PUFA, and keeping this ratio high. If you have 150g saturated fats and 10g pufas, that's a 15:1 ratio and very impressive and probably fine by RP standards...

Now, if you're eating lower fat (let's say, 60g a day, then this would necessitate a 4g PUFA and ~60g SFA intake, which, coincidentally enough, corresponds to the 4G PUFA limit that RP likes to preach).

I just fear that some people, in the attempts to be extremely orthorexic about RP (going less than half a gram of PUFA a day) are going to be missing out on highly nutritious and useful foods like eggs. I think you may cause more damage than good in the long run by doing that, my opinion at least.
 
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Sobieski

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Glad to hear you guys are finding what works for you; I also do way better on higher saturated fat intakes. Low fat makes me look and feel terrible. It was a low fat high starch diet that was the nail in the coffin for me health-wise and induced 18 months of suffering. Fat from eggs, dairy and chocolate is extremely anabolic for me.
 

Cirion

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Glad to hear you guys are finding what works for you; I also do way better on higher saturated fat intakes. Low fat makes me look and feel terrible. It was a low fat high starch diet that was the nail in the coffin for me health-wise and induced 18 months of suffering. Fat from eggs, dairy and chocolate is extremely anabolic for me.

Yes, agreed... eggs dairy and chocolate are so nice haha. Low fat and high starch, ewww lol!

Just for fun, I looked back at some 3 yr old diet plans (so glad I had the foresight to keep some of those logs), and wow, on one day I had 24 eggs hahaha. Which, coincidentally enough, I do recall that on such a day my libido was HIGH. I mean, we're talking, Outer space high ahahah. Cronometer says that's 4000 mg cholesterol. I truly think cholesterol is the magic bullet now without a shadow of a doubt... I pity all the "health nuts" that think cholesterol is evil.
 

Sobieski

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Yes, agreed... eggs dairy and chocolate are so nice haha. Low fat and high starch, ewww lol!

Just for fun, I looked back at some 3 yr old diet plans (so glad I had the foresight to keep some of those logs), and wow, on one day I had 24 eggs hahaha. Which, coincidentally enough, I do recall that on such a day my libido was HIGH. I mean, we're talking, Outer space high ahahah. Cronometer says that's 4000 mg cholesterol. I truly think cholesterol is the magic bullet now without a shadow of a doubt... I pity all the "health nuts" that think cholesterol is evil.
Yeah, don't ever try it. Some people do great, I don't.
 
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@Cirion what makes PUFA in scrambled eggs worse? I experience a better feeling from fried eggs where the yolk is nearly raw vs scrambled, but I never thought it may be PUFA related... I just assumed the nutrients were more easily assimilated somehow when the yolk is still soft.
 

ilikecats

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@Westside PUFAs it was a joke I made up the Jordan Peterson quote. I’m not a fan of him I thought it was funny at the time. Starch no starch it’s all same in the end....
 

Cirion

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@Cirion what makes PUFA in scrambled eggs worse? I experience a better feeling from fried eggs where the yolk is nearly raw vs scrambled, but I never thought it may be PUFA related... I just assumed the nutrients were more easily assimilated somehow when the yolk is still soft.

I was reading this somewhere from I believe a RP quote, forget where.

My understanding is that essentially, heating PUFA's tends to cause them to be unstable. Thus, by overheating the yolk (the PUFA in the egg), you're causing problems (the non-scientific answer I know lol). You can shield the PUFA from overheating by heating it while still in the egg, and by not overheating it until the yolk is solid (best to keep it a little runny).

This is also why one should never use vegetable oils for cooking.

As such, RP says that sunny side up, as well as soft boiled, is the best way to prepare an egg. This mitigates the bad effects of the PUFA in the egg.

I always feel better eating it sunny side up or soft boiled, but never knew why until I discovered RP. Yay for science, haha. If you're really hardcore, you can eat (drink?) the egg raw... some bodybuilders do this. I tried it before, but it's.... weird. Not recommended lol.

Considering I'd like to increase my egg intake to increase my fat and cholesterol intake, this is exciting news to me - being able to mitigate the bad effects :)
 
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That is interesting Cirion, I would love to see the quote. Before joining this forum I was under the impression that heated PUFA was more toxic than unheated PUFA. But then I posted a question here asking about that and the response I got made it out that it may be just as bad if not worse to consume the unheated PUFA.... see the response from @meatbag
PUFA, Heated Or Unheated. Equally As Bad For You?
 

Cirion

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From the RP email exchange wiki:

Not the quote I was searching for, but it's relevant and he still says soft boiling eggs is the best (as I figured).

Eggs
I think soft boiling eggs is probably best. Scrambling them probably does cause some heat damage, but the difference in vitamin content is too small to matter.

[RAW EGG YOLKS OK?] Yes, eggnogs for example.

To use the protein of 2 eggs efficiently it would be good to have a glass of milk and a large glass of orange juice.

There can be a great difference between eggs from chickens that really have adequate pasture, and the standard ones, but the labels aren't likely to contain enough information. 'Organic-free range' chickens in the US are usually fed soy and corn in a crowded outdoor pen. In the US I seldom eat more than one large egg per day, in Mexico where I know where the chickens live and what they eat, I eat more of them.
 

meatbag

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From the RP email exchange wiki:

Not the quote I was searching for, but it's relevant and he still says soft boiling eggs is the best (as I figured).

I think he might be referring to the effect of the heat on the vitamins and other compounds in the yolk. He's also discussed that cooking meat has a favorable effect on the π bonds of the unsaturated lipids. But I've also noticed like others that cooked egg yolks seem to make me not feel well sometimes and are unappetizing and I like over-easy/soft boiled way better also
 

sladerunner69

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Aside from the vitamins and minerals etc.; purely based on the sugars is there a benefit?

I have heard him recommend pure fructose powder to take with starch.

However the other guy is correct, Ray seems to prefer fruits and juices because of the vitamins, minerals and other substances that are present but which are lacking in coke and table sugar.
 

sladerunner69

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Very interesting man. You sound almost just like me. On KETO I had as high as 300g fat a day, and at my peak my libido was high as f***, I want to get that back, haha. At my peak, I even found myself attracted to women I normally didn't find attractive (overweight and such) - just wanna be clear, nothing against overweight women in general, lest anyone get offended, I'm just putting that out there. I'm annoyed that so far I haven't gotten to that point on Peat, even on sky high calories, but like you said I suspect it's the fat and cholesterol in particular. I used to usually eat like 12 eggs a day on Keto, and a pound of beef every day. that's a sh** ton of cholesterol, and probably was my magic bullet to high libido. Ray Peat suggests 600mg of cholesterol, but I might have had more like 4000+ mg of cholesterol on Keto lol. I find myself disagreeing with RP's suggestion of super low fat as such, even if you can metabolize sugar better, you're still missing on a lot of cholesterol goodness! lol

So I find myself disagreeing with being neurotic about avoiding PUFA. I do agree that avoiding nuts, vegetable oils etc is wise though. But I think it's ridiculous to avoid excellent foods like eggs because they have trace PUFA's. Eggs are like food from the gods lol. I bet my libido would have been out of this freakin world on Keto if I had avoided nut butters and replaced it with more saturated fats like coconut oil, cheese, beef, eggs etc.

I've read KREESE's whole thread. Lots of excellent things learned from his experiences, and I think I'd thrive on a very similar diet.

I'm probably gonna start pushing back up to as high as 50-60% calories from fat. I did 40-45% yesterday and found that my libido seems to be slowly coming back - felt pretty good this morning, if you know what I mean lol.

If you note, almost all of the most successful people here on these forums have all done the same thing - High fats (saturated), High sugar (all/most carb from sugar, not starch). There are almost no people here that thrive on 80/10/10 that I can see at least.

Anyways, sorry to derail the original thread, lol.


Estrogen and cortisol can increase libido in certain circumstances , Ray describes the effect as "an insatiable desire for sex" as opposed to the proper steady and healthy sexual interest that metabolic health invokes. Eating a keto diet would drastically increase cortisol and estrogen as is the nature of ketosis. Eggs have more than "trace" amounts of PUFAs, a large egg can have 2-3 grams. A few eggs would easily put you over the 5 gram bench mark which Peat has recommended for a recovering metabolism. However, even at 5 grams per day one will never become fully PUFA deplete, and if that is the goal you will want to keep PUFA as low as possible, keeping it down to under 3 grams or lower. With eggs, that's just not possible.

Also I believe it was the user @tca300 who described his experience on <1 gram of PUFA p/day as the perfect combination of zero depression and non-stop libido...
 

raypeatclips

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I find myself disagreeing with RP's suggestion of super low fat as such, even if you can metabolize sugar better, you're still missing on a lot of cholesterol goodness!

Peat doesn't recommend super low fat at all... Have you actually read anything on his website or just read the studies on this forum that talk about PUFA depletion?
 

Cirion

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Estrogen and cortisol can increase libido in certain circumstances , Ray describes the effect as "an insatiable desire for sex" as opposed to the proper steady and healthy sexual interest that metabolic health invokes. Eating a keto diet would drastically increase cortisol and estrogen as is the nature of ketosis. Eggs have more than "trace" amounts of PUFAs, a large egg can have 2-3 grams. A few eggs would easily put you over the 5 gram bench mark which Peat has recommended for a recovering metabolism. However, even at 5 grams per day one will never become fully PUFA deplete, and if that is the goal you will want to keep PUFA as low as possible, keeping it down to under 3 grams or lower. With eggs, that's just not possible.

Also I believe it was the user @tca300 who described his experience on <1 gram of PUFA p/day as the perfect combination of zero depression and non-stop libido...

Where is the proof of this? (Keto raising cortisol). If this were the case, I would have crashed and burned on Keto (which I didn't, after 2 whole years of doing it) and burned out my adrenals? It's not the reason I quit Keto. I'm not trying to stir up an argument, I'm just genuinely curious where this information comes from, because it was not my experience at all. My only problems were if I accidentally ate carbs, I'd go into a food coma lol.

As for keeping PUFA <1 gram a day, is it really worth being that OCD about it? That means you can't eat eggs, ever, not even one a day, for example. Eggs are amazing perfect protein sources, saturated fats, and about the best source of cholesterol you can get - and cholesterol is a key building block for testosterone. I feel like the drawbacks outweigh the benefits by going this low in fat?

What about studies that show around 30% of calories by fat is recommended for peak testosterone performance? Again, I'm just asking because I want to learn, not trying to sound like a know it all.

https://www.anabolicmen.com/wp-cont...ntake-and-testosterone-production-in-men1.jpg

I would be curious to hear more about tca300's experiences. I consider myself open minded, so I'm always willing to change my mind if suitable evidence presents itself.
 
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