What IS Happening In A Panic Attack?

[Peater]

We all know the feeling of a proper heart-pounding, sweating, panic attack.

If you don't, be glad of that

My question is, what is going on when they happen? I mean the sort where even Ray Peats ideas/information doesn't even begin to touch the anxiety, and it really feels like the brain has short-circuited, or your heart really is going to go into fibrillation at some point. Is it psychological, chemical or biological in nature?

Note I'm not asking for the cause as I appreciate there are a million different things that cause them, but that all of those must at some point have some commonality, and what fascinates me is what is actually happening when it all kicks off.

Have 'real time' studies ever been done?

 

[ecstatichamster]

one thing that always goes with it is low CO2 levels accompanied by hyperventilation.

That's why bag breathing has been an emergency treatment for a long time.

 

[Peater]

Interesting, now you mention it I remember I can actually feel a slight aching (But not unpleasant) sensation in my brain when I do bag breathing when in a 'normal' state (Almost like an opening/unconstricting feeling)

But bag breathing feels suffocating and stressful when already in a full-blown panic state (To me)

 

[Westside PUFAs]

We all know the feeling of a proper heart-pounding, sweating, panic attack.

No we do not. I had a friend once who claimed she had one but when she explained what she thought it was, it was not a PA at all. PA are very specific and they are often confused with being frustrated and angry in traffic and just "freaking out" and being "stressed." A true PA is the feeling of impending doom and it is that feeling of impending doom that PA suffers know too well. I did get them. But I got over it by 1, eating enough carbohydrate to satisfy my big brain (I literally have a big head, like 24" diameter) and 2, realizing that my PA came from me being stupid about life choices and diet. Now that I get enough sugar, sleep and sun, I don't have time for PA. After having so many of them and never actually going crazy or ending up in the metal ward, I learned back when I got over them that they are a waste of time and energy and they only mostly happen because you're focusing your attneiton on them or thinking about it. Change your focus, keep yourself busy with things you enjoy and you shouldn't ever have a PA again. I can choose to think about things like consciousness and the universe and make myself crazy but I choose to instead think about and engage in activities that I enjoy. I can choose to be a "derealization" sufferer, or just relaize my true self.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Interesting, now you mention it I remember I can actually feel a slight aching (But not unpleasant) sensation in my brain when I do bag breathing when in a 'normal' state (Almost like an opening/unconstricting feeling)

But bag breathing feels suffocating and stressful when already in a full-blown panic state (To me)

yes I know it does. It's true. However, it still helps.

 

[Peater]

yes I know it does. It's true. However, it still helps.

Thanks, good to know others have felt the same - I'll stick with it next time

 

[jaa]

one thing that always goes with it is low CO2 levels accompanied by hyperventilation.

That's why bag breathing has been an emergency treatment for a long time.

That's what I've always thought as well.

I read the following article this week that makes me unsure about that conclusion.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/

CO2 seems to be a culprit here for some people. But it's not as simple as high CO2 = panic, since bag breathing works.

That lead me to the following SA article from 2010 explains the mechanism is high acid levels in the amygdala is responsible for the fear response (demonstrated by mice with KO genes). They say CO2 increases acid levels in the the brain and most patients with a panic disorder who breathe in air with 35% CO2 (air is typically 0.04%) experience a panic attack while healthy volunteers do not. Close relatives of the people who experience panic attacks will also usually have a first time panic attack when they breathe in the high CO2 air suggesting a genetic connection. Lactate buildup also increases brain acid levels and exercise is said to make brain lactate removal more efficient, which is in line with exercises anti-anxiety effects.

Panic Attacks as a Problem of pH