What Is "adequate Protein"?

Discussion in 'Protein' started by messtafarian, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    From 'Nutrition for all the Women':

    "Enzymes are continually being destroyed and synthesized in active tissues. When a vitamin binds to its enzyme, it helps to stabilize the enzyme against degradation, leading to a higher concentration of the enzyme. In the same way, the "substrate" of an enzyme (the material it changes chemically) can stabilize the enzyme."

    "When we eat a diet that is very low in a particular nutrient, such as protein, we lose many of the enzymes involved in handling that nutrient. Without those enzymes, a meal rich in protein, for example, can liberate more ammonia than the body can dispose of, and the person can be poisoned. Many vegetarians have experienced this "toxic" effect of meat or cheese or milk, and so believe that "animals foods" can cause mental dullness. headaches, dizziness, etc. But for a meat eater, the same process can cause vegetables to produce gas, as slow carbohydrate digestion lets bacteria break them down. Changing to any new diet, or ending a fast, should be done gradually, allowing at least several days for enzyme adaptation. The same rule would probably apply to nutritional supplements. If gas is a problem even when change of diet isn't responsible, a thyroid deficiency should be considered. Lack of stomach acid is typical in hypothyroidism, but is only one aspect of a generalized digestive depression."

    "A few years ago, most of the nutritional problems that I saw were caused by physicians, by refined convenience foods, and by poverty. Recently, most of the problems seem to be caused by badly designed vegetarian diets, or by acceptance of the idea that 40 grams of protein per day is sufficient. The liver and other organs deteriorate rapidly on low-protein diets. Observe the faces of the wheat-grass promoters, the millet-eaters, the "anti-mucus" dieters, and other low-protein people. Do they look old for their age?"​
     
  2. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    - Biochemical, Physiological, and Molecular Aspects of Human Nutrition (978-1-4377-0959-9)

    "The Food and Agriculture Organization, World Health Organization, and United Nations University (FAO/WHO/UNU, 2007) define a “safe” daily intake of dietary protein as 0.83 g high-quality protein per kg body weight, or 58 g/day for the reference 70-kg man and 47 g/day for the reference 57-kg woman. The approximate median intake of protein for adults aged 31 to 50 years in the United States is 100 g/day for men and 65 g/day for women. In addition to food proteins, the body digests 50 to 100 g per day of endogenous protein that is secreted into or sloughed into the lumen of the gastrointestinal tract. These endogenous proteins include proteins in saliva, gastric juice, and other secretions; pancreatic enzymes; mucoproteins; sloughed intestinal cells; and proteins that leak into the intestinal lumen from the blood. Most of this mixture of exogenous and endogenous proteins (115 to 200 g/day) is efficiently digested and taken up by the absorptive enterocytes as free amino acids and dipeptides and tripeptides. Around 85% of the total protein is absorbed anterior to the end of the small intestine (terminal ileum), with around 10 to 20 g of protein entering the colon each day. Daily fecal nitrogen losses amount to the equivalent of about 10 g of protein."​
     
  3. ScurveDream

    ScurveDream Member

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    The high protein intake contrasts with the idea of being carb-driven though in way that it promotes possible fat gain (i.e., getting more protein means getting much more carbs, which has a sum of more overall calories needed). In order to get a lot of protein but also a relatively high carb:protein ratio, you'd need to consistently eat a high-ish amount of calories (or at least 2,500+ minimum) for the most part. I can't imagine someone getting, say, 100+ grams of protein but also then wanting 3-4+x the carbs, making that 300-400+ grams of carbs a day on top of all that protein and not even including fats yet. Also, the higher the protein intake (and if you're not adding in pure collagen/gelatin) then it becomes much more stressful to get all of that protein from fewer limited/constrained sources -- or having to find new and (possibly bad) sources, like more PUFA and etc. I know some people here talk about how easy it is to hit 300-400+ grams of carbs and 100+ of protein, but that's only if you're eating the exact same things at high amounts (tons of OJ, of course, can give you plenty of B vitamins and carbs -- but is everyone really going to down multiple quarts or more of this every single day?). The same problem with protein -- barring gelatin and such, it's tough to also be anti-iron/PUFA/mercurcy/etc. but also suggesting tons of fish/meat to meet protein demands, while then having to worry also about upping carbs relative to the protein by 3x or more (basically the more protein you're scavenging for, your carb needs are expected to have to go up significantly as well).

    The problem with consistently getting in this amount of calories for me would be getting higher bodyfat slowly, which is why I don't follow the "get more calories" advice aimlessly, even if "Peat-friendly." I'm not just going to set some high number and eat that much mindlessly 24/7 -- I believe it needs to be gradual and/or in strides since I come from low-calorie diets and do not want to suddenly go high calories.

    I can't speak for others, but I personally (and others likely) also can't stomach just doing nothing but drinking quarts of milk and OJ all day, every day and never mixing it up for way of getting adequate protein and carbs and some vitamins/etc. I try and limit red meat and such, but it becomes tough getting ~80 grams of protein minimum consistently without reaching out to the more "bad stuff" every now and then (before I would get 100+ easily before Peat because endless nuts/meats/PUFA protein shakes/beans/etc.). I also can't always rely upon having all ideal foods available at all times either, which can be a cost burden (cheese can be expensive, as can lots of gelatin + oysters + organ meats).

    Though today I would have to admit that I've been pretty thirsty and craving lots of orange juice, but most days I'm not quite feeling like drinking 6-8 cups of it or milk.
     
  4. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    In my experience, protein has a sharp upside down U curve where too much is disasterous to me but so is too little. My best days are in the range of 70-80g protein or so. Keeping in mind that of that 70-80g, some may be in the form of potato, which actually has more protein than at face value due to keto-acids, so the real range for me may be like 70-100 gram. The tricky thing for me is that I'm sensitive also to too much cysteine and tryptophan, which means I need a good amount of protein in the form of gelatin to avoid those AA's.
     
  5. ExCarniv

    ExCarniv Member

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    Nothing wrong with eating 150-200g of meat everyday, gelatin and 2 eggs, (with meat) you're eating complete AAs when you pairing it with gelatin, plus lots of other nutrients, specially Niacin, Potassium and Selenium.

    I tried high P and low P diets and both were terrible, I found a sweet spot around 120g, as male, and pretty active.
     
  6. Jennifer

    Jennifer Member

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    Not that anyone but me would want to eat this way or should eat this, it is possible. I easily get 100g of protein and 400g of carbs (from whole fruit, and to a much lesser extent, Thai coconut water, fruit juice, fruit molasses, maple syrup and honey) before I even hit 2000 calories — I eat roughly 2500 a day. I don't crave much fat other than the occasional young coconut meat, olives or avocado so my PUFA intake averages 2g or less a day. I get my animal protein from shellfish, lean meat and occasionally eggs and despite this, I'm taking in less phosphorus and inflammatory amino acids than I was when I was consuming a diet of dairy and fruit. I get the majority of my calcium from a concentrated herbal infusion I make from nettles and horsetail, and this leaves me with an average calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1–2:1. I get blood work done every few months and my latest iron and heavy metals (including mercury) panels came back normal.
     
  7. ScurveDream

    ScurveDream Member

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    Yeah, I realized my post is a bit off a while after. It's obviously possible to hit all of those macros without going too overboard on calories.

    My problem would be finding adequate food in general that can get me the most nutrients without any empty/extra calories, which can be problematic since I sometimes have to settle for the PUFA stuff at times, even if low amounts (< 10g still mostly, but > 5 usually on those days).

    Also, beware of eggs sometimes as I've noticed that most eggs I find in stores that are large have around 1 or maybe 2 grams of PUFAs, even though they have lots of good stuff despite this. I tend to avoid eggs because of this, but not sure if cooking them in coconut oil or something could mitigate it. That may sound fairly low, but I would need to keep PUFAs low in general/look out for them because of some foods I end up eating sometimes might have it and I don't want to double up on it or such.
     
  8. tallglass13

    tallglass13 Member

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    Does anybody ever use a scale to weigh their protein. I use one, and I easily get 100g from beef, and that is only like 6 oz., from very lean Filet of Mignon. But there must be consideration for water content and fat. I have a suspicion that people may be getting way too much protein if you are not using a scale. You will find that when using a food scale, its fairly easy to hit 100g.
     
  9. ExCarniv

    ExCarniv Member

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    Eggs from chickens raised on pastures, the Vit E content is almost three times more than regular eggs from chicken soy fed.

    So it could be possible that good quality eggs with high amounts of Vitamin E, could mitigate the pufa content, one or two a day wouldn't do too much harm, Peat says if eggs are from pasture raised chicken, they are ok to eat everyday, with regular eggs he said better to avoid or eat one per week.
     
  10. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    How do you mean? 4 oz of lean meat is roughly 20-24 gram of protein. It's not a 1:1 translation. 100 gram of chicken or beef or whatever does not equate to 100 gram of protein usable by the body. Most protein is horribly inefficiently processed by the body. Haidut made a post on this. Some proteins may have 85% waste and only 15% actually utilized.
     
  11. Jennifer

    Jennifer Member

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    Yeah, that makes sense. I eat such little fat that an egg doesn't put me over, but I can understand how it would for you. I also get my eggs from a local biodynamic farm that raises their hens on pasture so as ExCarniv pointed out, their nutritional profile may be different than conventional eggs. If you stick to lean proteins and low-fat carb sources, you still get that much PUFA?
    When I first reintroduced meat back into my diet, I weighed it before and after cooking it to get a more accurate idea of what I was getting for protein and logged it in crono as cooked weight. I typically go by cravings and will usually end up around the same amount daily, except for days leading up to my period when my appetite skyrockets or when I'm more active than usual.
    So would that mean we also aren't utilizing as much of the inflammatory AAs as the more bioavailable proteins — I can't remember but I think whey, eggs and milk are the most bioavailable? I didn't see potato or mushroom protein listed on charts the last time I looked.
     
  12. tara

    tara Member

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    I would expect 6oz lean beef filet mignon to give ~ 50g protein (or less protein if it is more fat) eg Beef, tenderloin, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, all grades, cooked, broiled [Beef Medallions, Filet Mignon] Nutrition Facts & Calories.
    But there's at least a bit of protein in most foods, so you might be getting plenty in the day anyway.
     
  13. ScurveDream

    ScurveDream Member

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    Well no. If I eat everything lean then PUFA would be nearly zero or as you said. The problem is that I try to avoid too much red meat too often, which then makes it difficult to hit the protein macros. If I ate like tuna, chicken or etc. it would be super easy to get enough protein without PUFA much, but that would require significant meat eating every day.
     
  14. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    Your struggles sound slightly different to mine yet similar. I also find that I don't like to eat much meat maybe for slightly different reasons than you perhaps, but the effect is the same, I find it hard to get enough protein while eating little or even no meat. I have found that even 8 oz every day is too much. Was just reading in Vani Hari's "Food babe" book that she found she doesn't like to eat more than 8 oz a WEEK! Crazy. I'm thinking of halving my intake again and seeing how that goes (just 4 oz a day). I figure as long as you do that, as well as get ample gelatin, and ample vegetable proteins, it *should* be enough (get me to my 70-80g minimum intake). 4 oz of meat should be low enough to avoid the problems that can come from animal protein (cystine, tryptophan, potential hormones... etc)
     
  15. tallglass13

    tallglass13 Member

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    I said 6 oz though, but last night I weighed my Filet, its Center Cut high quality, it was 9 0z and 80g of Protein. After the beef, I wouldn't need much more, I then have some Raw skimmed milk at 12 grams every cup. Im trying to lose a bit of weight, so I don't want extra fat gain from too much protein. I learned that beef is of high quality, and I thought is was very usable for Protein for the body. Egg of course is hard to measure because of the yolk fat and lots of water. However, my only point is weight of protein is the grams needed by the body, obviously, but I don't think people think of it that way, and only look at numbers on packaging of products.
     
  16. Jennifer

    Jennifer Member

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    Oh, okay. Gotcha. I wasn't sure if your fat was coming from protein sources alone or also coconut oil, butter, tallow etc. Do you react poorly to meat or are you wanting to avoid it solely for the reasons you mentioned a few posts back? If it's the latter, have you ever compared protein sources on cronometer or other similar food databases based on the same amount of protein for each source?

    A while back, I logged 100g worth of protein for each of the foods I was comparing and found that the inflammatory AA totals were so similar among all of them and if one food was higher in an inflammatory AA, it was typically lower in at least one of the other ones. I thought in terms of the inflammatory AAs that potatoes, mushrooms and greens would have a better profile than milk, scallops, chicken breast, lean beef and low-fat tofu, but I discovered they don't and all but the milk have a higher glycine content than they do, especially the scallops. The scallops have almost 3x the amount, which made me wonder if it's one of the reasons why, along with crab, I tolerate it the best out of all the higher protein sources I've tried.
     
  17. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    I don't find that protein directly increases fat gain. That said, I do find that excess protein can increase inflammation from cysteine, tryptophan etc, so in that sense it does indirectly increase fat gain for me. Fatty protein though like eggs or fatty cuts of beef could easily send you over the edge if you're like me and get fat easily from dietary fats.

    Beef is one of the safer meats definitely, its low in tryptophan compared to most other proteins. I still prefer organ meats though over muscle meats, personally. If I'm gonna limit my meat to only 4 oz a day, better believe I'm gonna maximize the nutrition as a result (Beef liverwurst has 5x the B12 content of regular muscle meat beef for example, quite the powerhouse of nutrition). so even just 4 oz of liverwurst puts me at like 600% RDA of B12.
     
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