What If You Need More T3 Than 4mcg Per Hour?

ilovethesea

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What happens if your T3 requirements exceed the recommended 4mcg maximum per hour?

I understand the body naturally produces 4mcg of T3 every hour, and that if you exceed this it is unphysiological.

"T3, by lowering stress, sometimes reveals a low basal metabolic rate, that was hidden by high stress hormones. The body produces about 4 mcg of T3 per hour, so taking more than that can interfere with regulatory processes." - Ray Peat

My current dose (which I still don't think is even high enough) is 1.5 Cynoplus + 1.5 Cytomels, so I'm getting 95mcg of T3 per day.

I take as much of the T3 in 4mcg doses as I can throughout the day, but that's still 12 doses and I have to take the Cynoplus on top of that to get to the amount I need. I take 1/2 a Cynoplus at a time but sometimes I need to top it up with 1-2 doses of Cytomel too.

Am I inadvertently causing some interference in my body's regulatory processes by taking more than the physiological doses? This is one thing that's never been clear from reading Ray's work... how do people like the "12 grain woman" take their thyroid? Surely they're not up 24/7 doing hourly doses...??
 

tara

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I don't know the answer.

I would be curious about whether, when faced with unphysiologically high T3 levels (ie corresponding to a metabolic rate that it doesn't have the resources to support, or that it perceives as dangerous in some way), the body converts some of the available T4 into rT3 to counteract the perceived excessive T3?

Maybe some formulations of NDT are slower release, so that they keep supplying through the night?
 

answersfound

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Have you had your Rt3 tested? Maybe the t4 is converting and blocking t3, therefore requiring you to take more. I cannot take more than about 2 mcg t3 although I just started a month ago. I would try a ratio of 2:1 of t4 to t3
 
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ilovethesea

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I forgot to say, if I lower my T3 even slightly I notice it right away. I ran out of Cytomel the other week and had to rely on Cynoplus for a few days. I tried temporarily upping the Cyno a bit to almost match what T3 I was getting with the Cyto. Well I got cystic acne on my chin and usually I don't get acne, maybe 1-2 with my period but not that severe.

I don't know if that means the T3 in the Cynoplus isn't being used well, and when I take in the 4mcg doses it works better. Or it could just mean I'm really dependent on having a certain minimum level of T3.

I thought Ray had said somewhere that excess T3 can be stored as RT3? I will have to search for the quote.

I suppose I could have RT3 tested again. I paid $100 for the test last year and at the time was certain I had RT3 from symptoms and several years of treatment on T4 only. But the test came back normal, so after that is when I started experimenting with lower ratios than the 4:1.

I feel better on more T3, I just wonder if I'm doing something wrong with the way I dose it.
 
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ilovethesea

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Lookingforanswers I was writing my reply to Tara at the same time you posted :)

As per above, yes I had RT3 tested and it was ok. I would think if I were prone to RT3 build up it would have happened already when I took so much T4 pre-Ray Peat, right? I was on 11:1 ratio for several years under the care of a ND... I've found no doctors know anything about dosing.

I did 1:1 ratio for a while after that, and a few months ago changed to 2:1. I think 4:1 doesn't work for everyone, especially women. I also started taking the T4 at night not through the day.
 

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Hmm have you tried taking 200 mg magnesium with the Cytomel? That would be an interesting experiment. Worked like a charm for me when Cytomel wasn't giving me a good response.

Also, have you tried progesterone with the Cytomel?

I don't take t4 because I didn't have a great experience. But if I do in the future I will be very cautious. I take pregnenolone and magnesium wth Cytomel and this trio seems to work pretty well.
 
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ilovethesea

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Just to clarify, I think the Cytomel does work well for me in the tiny doses throughout the day. What I'm wondering is if it is bad to take so much of the Cynoplus at once (1/2 pill) or combine the Cyno with the Cyto, since that would take me over the 4mcg of hourly T3. To my knowledge Ray has never said anything about that, for people whose thyroid supplement requirements are very high.

I haven't tried oral magnesium. Which one did you take? In Cronometer my magnesium seems good from foods alone - 400mg per day. I have a magnesium chloride oil I sometimes rub on my legs but I don't know how good the absorption is from that.

For progesterone yes I take Progest-E every night and sometimes once during the day if I remember. I don't take it specifically with the Cyto. I just draw a line across the inside of my bottom lip.

Are you saying you got better results when you took all these things in one dose together? Or just adding them throughout the day?

Not surprised to hear you didn't like T4. I think it was the reason I had a 0.0001 TSH - too much T4. My doctor was very concerned. I think it gives them a false indication that you are hyperthyroid when you are not. That's why I changed the dose to less T4. I haven't had a thyroid panel done in a year so I should go back, just hate going to the doctors!
 

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I just tried milk of magnesia for magnesium. And yes I would take it with the thyroid supps
 
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ilovethesea

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Ok thanks! The cleanest one I can find has potassium sorbate which I understand is to be avoided...
 

RPDiciple

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To much T3 does not get converted to rT3 btw, i know some mention that. T4 can get converted.

Do you eat enough protein and salt? those are very important for thyroid to function.
 

Blossom

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It seems like your actually getting 180 mcg of T4 in 1.5 cynoplus tablets. :D
Sorry, I don't have an answer to your question about T3. :)
 
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ilovethesea

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Blossom said:
It seems like your actually getting 180 mcg of T4 in 1.5 cynoplus tablets. :D
Sorry, I don't have an answer to your question about T3. :)

Woops, I fixed that typo. I meant I am getting 95 mcg of T3, not T4, per day.
 
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ilovethesea

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RPDiciple said:
To much T3 does not get converted to rT3 btw, i know some mention that. T4 can get converted.

Do you eat enough protein and salt? those are very important for thyroid to function.

Hmm, I thought I had read that somewhere lately, maybe Functional PS, but I could be wrong. Yes I definitely know RT3 can come from excess T4. Thankfully my RT3 test last year was ok, and I take even less T4 now than back then.

I just wonder what Ray means by excess T3 "interfering with regulatory processes" and how that relates to the bigger doses like in Cynoplus?

I don't have any adrenaline problems taking 4mcg Cytomel, but sometimes at night I will get minor heart racing after I've taken Cynoplus (I take .5 or 1 pill at once, sometimes combined with a bit of Cyto).

I am thinking a good test will be to ditch the Cynoplus completely and just do Cytomel with Synthroid. That would mean lower T3 overall, but I'd be dosing the T3 in 4mcg doses only. That way, I can see if the T3 in the Cynoplus is truly doing anything. As far as I know it's no problem to take big doses of T4 at once??

As for protein I get 100-120g per day. I've never measured salt but I salt the carrot salad to taste, and if I'm having fish/shellfish or farmers cheese. I don't eat starch due to allergies so I don't have many salt vehicles anymore.
 

Zachs

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When you take more that what is physiologically possible, your body stops producing its own and is relying completely on that medication. Its the same thing for any hormone. With test, you can supplement your own test production but if you go above a certain threshold, your body will stop producing test. This is why most thyroid supplement takers are lifers, coming off a very high dose can be really tough.
 
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ilovethesea

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Zachs said:
When you take more that what is physiologically possible, your body stops producing its own and is relying completely on that medication. Its the same thing for any hormone. With test, you can supplement your own test production but if you go above a certain threshold, your body will stop producing test. This is why most thyroid supplement takers are lifers, coming off a very high dose can be really tough.

Interesting. I am a "lifer" anyway, I only have half my thyroid gland left due to thyroid cancer surgery. (Whether I even needed to have said surgery is another story...) But, it would be nice not to have to take so much thyroid since I have so much trouble procuring it.

If we're only supposed to take Cynoplus in less than 1/4 doses (that would be 7.5mcg of T4) then why doesn't Ray write about that?

In fact I believe there is a quote floating around where Ray said the thyroid returns completely to normal after stopping medication with no long-term effects. So how do you know the body stops producing on its own if you take too much??

Also, I have Broda Barnes book and there's nothing at all about splitting the doses. It's implied you can take 2 grains all at once. It's all very confusing...
 
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ilovethesea

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I just found this on Peatarian:

jb4566 said:
The hormone in NDT is bound to a protein that has to be digested before any hormone can be released into your body, so if you take NDT with food the release of hormone will be so slow that you don't have to worry about the 4mcg per hour.

I take a 1 grain or 1.5 grain at a time.

commented Sep 18, 2013 by jb4566

Any thoughts on this?

I don't take NDT anymore, I have allergies to Erfa. So I'm wondering if this still applies to Cynoplus? I usually take my thyroid with food to avoid chance of adrenaline symptoms.
 

Zachs

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Ilovethesea, the body will always restart production but if you have been supplementing for awhile it could take weeks to get back into full swing. Sometimes, it will not be as productive as pre-medication. You never know, it's like taking trt or the pill fir years and than just dropping it.
 
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ilovethesea

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Zachs said:
Ilovethesea, the body will always restart production but if you have been supplementing for awhile it could take weeks to get back into full swing. Sometimes, it will not be as productive as pre-medication. You never know, it's like taking trt or the pill fir years and than just dropping it.

I thought Ray said it returned to normal in 3 days?

Regardless... I'm not willing to wait weeks to test this theory of whether I've been inadvertently suppressing my own thyroid's (or I should say half a thyroid)'s product with thyroid hormone.

All I know is the symptoms when I lower my T3 dose are horrible within days - I can't deal with this acne or cold feet again.
 
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ilovethesea

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ilovethesea said:
I forgot to say, if I lower my T3 even slightly I notice it right away. I ran out of Cytomel the other week and had to rely on Cynoplus for a few days. I tried temporarily upping the Cyno a bit to almost match what T3 I was getting with the Cyto. Well I got cystic acne on my chin and usually I don't get acne, maybe 1-2 with my period but not that severe.

I don't know if that means the T3 in the Cynoplus isn't being used well, and when I take in the 4mcg doses it works better. Or it could just mean I'm really dependent on having a certain minimum level of T3.

Quoting myself because I was just thinking about this again. Maybe the acne (and other hypo symptom - colder feet) didn't happen because I ran out of Cytomel and replaced the T3 with Cyno for a few days.

It might be because I'm taking a Canadian Cytomel now instead of the Mexican one I had before.

I raised dose to 2 Cytos per day and I really should be feeling toasty warm with this much, and skin should be returning to normal, but no. I am starting to think the Canadian Cytomel might not be as potent, even though the amount is the same on the label.

This has happened to me before, I noticed Erfa and compounded NDT aren't as strong as Cyno. (Compounded is actually the WORST - so expensive but so weak, you might as well be taking sugar pills. But I digress.)

If so, this would really suck because Canadian Cyto costs $130+ a bottle here, by prescription only, and my doctor doesn't even want to give it to me at all, let alone in the dose I need (since my TSH was 0.001 she insists I am "hyper"). If I try to procure my T3 the "legal" way through the system it's gonna be so stressful just making a case to get it, and then if I have to take even MORE of it to make up for the weaker effects, it'll get mega expensive!!!

Meanwhile, Canadian aren't legally allowed to order from Mexican pharmacies... but it's like the system forces you to go rogue, because there are literally no options to get T3 here.
 

SQu

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How frustrating. I've faced a similar dilemma but fortunately the doctor caved in response to my nagging. I have different challenges when it comes to online ordering, a big one being it would probably not get through customs. Find a more sympathetic doctor?
 

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