Home > Resources, Diet, Testimonials, Logs > Ask For Help or Advice > What Happens On An All Meat Diet?

What Happens On An All Meat Diet?

  1. Let's say a person eats nonstop bbq consisting of beef, lamb, pork and chicken including organs? and maybe once a week some milk, potatoes and some fruit?
  2. Too much phosphorus, heme iron, carnitine (anti-thyroid), harmful amino acids. Lack of carbs leading to chronically elevated Cortisol levels. A gut microbiota that favors TMAO production (Nitric Oxide, heart disease). A greater assimilation of heavy metals/metalloestrogens like Lead and Cadmium.

    Adding Kale to pork kidney for instance inhibits Cadmium absorption :
    Cadmium bioavailability from vegetable and animal-based foods assessed with in vitro digestion/caco-2 cell model. - PubMed - NCBI
  3. What Happens On An All Meat Diet?

    Diet apathy and an eventual aversion towards meat and desire for other types of food.

    We're not lions a carnivore diet is unnatural.
  4. Doing great on all meat, literally all health problems vanish within days.

    Clear mind, zero digestion problems, perfect skin, zero cravings, stable mood, no anxiety.

    As soon as I add in back carbs / plants, problems start (fruits: digestion problems, brain fog, thyroid problems, less androgenic / starch: skin problems, less androgenic, depression, anger, anxiety).

    Only problem I have with all meat, and why I still try other food groups is lack of energy. Starch gives me great energy.

    Especially after eating red meat I get rather tired, it's better with chicken and pork, but for obvious reasons don't want to go down this route.

    Many people doing fantastic on all meat and solving all kind of health problems that even keto couldn't solve (search carnivore diet on youtube), for me, I have the suspicion that I'm not suited for high fat or I would need more adaption time. Lot's of anecdotal positive results, research starting to look into it already.
  5. Mate lack of energy is a health problem, so to say all your health problems are gone is incorrect. Perhaps many of your health markers have improved, but low energy is something I’m not surprised with at all on an all meat diet.

    In my experience, zero carb can’t come any where near to producing the same levels of energy that sucrose and starch can.

    Zero carb proponents will try to pull you further by saying give it time to be fat adapted and eat more fat... the former is cruel in my opinion (on the same level of justifying poor health due to “detoxing”) and the latter is just positively disgusting...

    Some of these guys are eating butter/lard straight to meet caloric needs.
  6. Don't agree that it's a health problem, it's the same for me as during fasting.

    But not here to argue or defend zero carbs in terms of energy. It really sucks.

    Carbs seem to be an insanely superior fuel for the body than fat or protein. At the same time carbs evokes insane health problems for many.

    Carnivore is for me the ultimate elimination diet to figure out what is making problems or what not.

    And for some basket cases with heavy auto immune problems or lots of allergies it could be a long-term solution.
  7. Even if eating an all-meat diet was healthy, I wouldn't follow it. I tried it 10 years ago when I was exploring the diet-scene and got into low-carbing.
    Avoiding carbohydrates just made me miserable. You will get insane carb and sugar cravings all day, so you are at constant war with your cravings.
    I rather indulge in sweet carbohydrates, thats what my body craves.
  8. It's not healthy. Eating all meat will shift your body's metabolism from oxidative metabolism to fatty acid metabolism. Thyroid, progesterone,testosterone, and CO2 will be replaced with elevated levels of cortisol, epinephrine, lactic acid, and estrogen. In the long run these metabolic changes will lay the ground work to increase your susceptibility to virtually all chronic illnesses.
  9. lol
    If I were delusional enough to try an all-meat diet, the least I would do is focus on chicken/pork/fish. Red meat is far less digestible to eat on a regular basis. Not to mention iron, and the unique iron-thrift polymorphisms that most Americans have.
  10. Eating chicken may lead to a smaller penis | NutritionFacts.org
    (He is vegan)
  11. I don't think Americans have "Unique Iron-Thrift Polymorphisms." I think we have a Federal Agency that mandated that scrap metal in the form of iron be added into foods. I also think that being sedentary and lack of blood donation in the general public has led to very high body iron stores.

    Heme iron is very safe, and probably the easiest for the body to regulate via absorption from meals. Much more so than the raw metal.
  12. Ethnic groups that evolve on a high calcium diet will necessarily evolve the need for higher baseline iron levels.

    A lactase persistent ethnic group necessarily evolved on a high calcium diet.
  13. The hype for carnivore diet is real right know. There are some seriously good "marketing" men hyping it up right now. I don't blame anyone who is at bad health and not doing good on Peat diet for trying it. The marketing speeches are so convincing i sometimes think about trying it myself. I think if you wanna do an experiment then try it for say 2 to 4 months.
  14. I don't think iron overload would be a problem. Milk, or dairy in general, can block iron absorption to a great extent, so can coffee (depending on how strict your carnivore diet is). Various antioxidants and polyphenols can block iron to a great extent. The main problem on this diet is the vast hormonal shifts.
  15. It's only anecdotical but I'm on a carnivore diet. Eventhough there are some points in countersense with Ray Peat's advices, like high phosphorus-to-calcium, high methionine-to-glycine, low/near 0 carb, high heme-iron, there are also lots of other points that go with him.
    It's the richest diet in term of B vitamins, B6, B3 is to the roof, there's only B1 which I think is used a lot for sugar metabolism. Also, lots of competitor with tryptophan, no fibers, no starch, good amount of protein, (very) high saturated-to-pufa ratio (I'm near 10 saturated for 1 pufa)...

    It works really well for me, I'm 3 months in. I'm low carb which "should" raise my cortisol but I have never been more calm in my life. It really enhanced my tolerance to stress and I'm building muscle without doing anything (which should not be if high cortisol). Mental clarity and well-beingness is better than I have ever been when experimenting diets. I'm thinking about supplementing glycine tho.
    I just wanted to say that there is theory and practise. There's a lot of reasons why this diet should not work in theory but it's different in practice. I'm not saying that it is the diet for everyone either of course, only saying that it is easy to show the supposed bad effects of this diet pointed by Elephanto when there are no practices/measures behind it.
  16. When there are perceived benefits from such diet (at least initially), I think that this is mainly because it restricts an ongoing bacterial/pathogenic overgrowth (and so Endotoxins-related inflammation and stress) by restricting carbs. Plenty of studies show that they preferentially feed on glucose, sucrose and starch and as such each are also shown to promote biofilm formation. Honey doesn't have this effect. I think for instance that the effect of Endotoxins on stress levels is so important that the lack of carbs also promoting Cortisol doesn't offset this if the reduction in Endos is important and so produces a net reduction of average stress levels. Anyway this is what I experienced with IF which is also known to reduce Endotoxins, I had the idea based on Peat that IF would be stressing but for me, at a time when gut health wasn't great, it produced a significant decrease in chronic stress.

    Another reason it can help is the implied avoidance of gut irritants. Say, when one's staple source of carbs is known to trigger symptoms of IBS in sufferers and has known gut-irritating properties (gluten, iron fortified cereals, potatoes, corn, cocoa, excess Fructose and Fructose malabsorption, Lactose malabsorption, etc) then the simple action of removing them can be very beneficial. Lastly, another reason would be the increased intake of Vitamin A in people who were previously deficient.

    So with those considered and resolved in Peaty ways, I think you can have your cake and eat it too and that it would be much healthier than an all-meat/low carbs diet. Mainly by systematically using antiseptics with carbs sources (for instance 2 tsps of coconut oil with every meal), more focused antibacterial protocols if needed, avoiding the foods that don't agree with your gut and tackling other factors related to gut health (gastric acid secretion, temperature/metabolism, stress and serotonin, gut linings integrity).
  17. I don't know what meats you are primarily eating, but every time I've looked up various cuts of beef on Nutrition Data, the Glycine to Methionine ratio has always been quite positive. I've mainly checked ground, chuck, New York, and Ribeye, and all have a lot more glycine than methionine. They have all had better ratios than dairy or eggs. Gelatious cuts like Oxtail or Shanks should be even better.
  18. What is this based on?
  19. On calcium inhibiting iron absorption. If one evolves on a high calcium diet, they will have higher iron.

    This is empirically supported by western and particularly northwest Europeans having higher iron levels than eastern ones, with lactase persistence following the same pattern.
  20. If that "Primarily Northwest Europeans" includes England..... that country also engages in Iron Fortification.

    Calcium does indeed inhibit iron absorption in the same meal..... but I am no longer sure about the long term effects. Calcium Channel Blockers inhibit both calcium and iron. It appears that both minerals are absorbed through some of the same channels.

    Also, if the studies that you refer to didn't take intestinal parasites like hookworm (that feed on host blood) into account..... that is a massive oversight
  21. With the recent increase in popularity of the carnivore diet, a lot of people are trying it and feeling the better than ever. Except for the benefits in gut health, it completely goes against all of Ray’s work.
  22. Low energy by definition means unhealthy. I am 100% confident in saying body temps and pulses are weak/low alongside that low energy which has a 100% positive correlation to unhealth.

    I'll save you the energy (ahaha, see what I did there) and tell you this - a meat diet will tank your metabolism into the depths of hades. In fact, it's the last thing I basically did before I completely ruined my health and came back here. My temps were in the 96's after that fiasco.

    You may feel good at first - I did actually, but it won't last. I know people who are absolutely determined to do a meat diet won't listen to me, so dunno why I bother. But don't say I didn't warn anyone.
  23. There it is. It had to be said.
  24. It is interesting. However i'm not convinced at all that it applies to my case. Furthermore I think that carnivore diet is not the same thing AT ALL than low carb diet/"mainstream" keto diet. It is really 2 different diets.
    I know how I am/behave when I'm under stress, or under low metabolism and vice versa. I suffered from social anxiety, chronic fatigue, insomnia, and other stuff like "addiction", i.e I was easily getting addicted to whatever gave me pleasure. Btw I used to eat liver for vitamin A and other stuff before switching to carnivore.
    Now everysingle one of the above disappeard. I mean it's like a miracle. Anxiety really disappeared with increased energy levels since I'm always thinking "positively", energetic now. No more addictive behavior. And also I found back who I really was before these anxiety disorders. It feels so calm, so light. I can't say that I'm just in a "lower stress state" than before. I'm just not stressed anymore. It feels pleasant. I'm not here to argue which diet is the best or why carnivore works, just saying that whatever we can say, I have so many reasons to keep doing it, and no reasons to leave it now. :)

    Chris Masterjohn, as well as Ray Peat, said that classic muscle meat was too high in methionine compared to glycine. Ratios don't seem to be well established however. And it must depends on the cut of the meat. I eat tough meat, also softer like rib eye and stuff, also bony-gelatiny parts, and organs like liver and hearts.

    By experience (only 3 month) I can't agree with that. The opposite is happening to me. Really good energy throughout the day. I'm hardly out of breath, and in Ray Peat's measures, I have hot extremities, this time of the year i'm usually depressed because of the cold and I'm not for the first time. Also, I always feel this heat inside me it's hard to describe but truly pleasant.
  25. The clinical hemochromatosis is a mostly hereditary thing. The subclinical high iron levels could be more prone to environmental factors. Either way, the evolutionary trend makes perfect sense. People with such ancestry would have been drinking milk very often, since milk is a relatively sustainable resource.

    In the face of such high calcium consumption, high iron levels would evolve to compensate. And that's exactly what the evidence shows--high lactase populations have higher iron.
  26. I know they've both said that..... but I just can't find evidence to back that up. These are the numbers I find in the NutritionData Database. Go to "more Details" under protein to get AA breakdown. (Ratios are what's important, I'm just using the default serving)

    80/20 ground beef- Glycine 344mg/Methionine 122mg Beef, ground, 80% lean meat / 20% fat, raw [hamburger] Nutrition Facts & Calories

    Ribeye- 4211mgG/1799mg M Beef, ground, 80% lean meat / 20% fat, raw [hamburger] Nutrition Facts & Calories

    New York Strip - 1494 G/ 639 M Beef, short loin, top loin, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, all grades, cooked, broiled [Club Steak, Kansas City Strip, New York Strip] Nutrition Facts & Calories

    Chuck - 3503 G/1645 M Beef, chuck, blade roast, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, choice, cooked, braised [Top Blade Steak, URMIS #1879] Nutrition Facts & Calories

    Compare to...

    Whole Egg - 1050 G/924 M Egg, whole, raw, fresh Nutrition Facts & Calories

    Whole Milk - 183 G/ 183M Milk, whole, 3.25% milkfat Nutrition Facts & Calories

    Cheddar Cheese- 566 G/ 861M Cheese, cheddar Nutrition Facts & Calories

    So, muscle meat is coming in at between 2:1 or 3:1 depending on the cut, while eggs and milk are close to 1:1 (maybe closer to 1:2 in the case of some cheeses). Where are they getting their information on the ratios, and are the numbers on that database THAT far off?
  27. Wow I've never really looked into that, this is very interesting. I wondered if glycine content of a cut could be estimated by its toughness, but it doesn't seem so finally. Ribeye have a really nice ratio compared to what I thought.
    According to Chris Masterjohn you would need 0.5-1g more glycine for each g of methionine. If there are such ratios in muscle meat I don't see the problem then. I don't know if Ray Peat advices a precise ratio range, or if he just estimates by looking at the glycine content of the whole animal compared to its methionine content.
    Thank you for the info !

    I know what feeling you're refering to. I have this opioid sensation whenever I drink milk even in moderate amounts (1/4L), however this doesn't compare. Opiates gives calm and pleasure but also sluginess/tiredness. After a meal of raw meat I just feel ready for anything and calm at the same time.
  28. The only issue i see with the diet is the lack of carbs and possibly the lack of nutrients. The thing is, atleast according to Vilhamur Steffanson many people have thrived on the diet for extended periods of time and into old age.

    To err on the safe side adding fruit juice to the all meat diet may not inhibit the positive effects the diet provides on the gut and it would cover most of peats tenants with the exception of iron restriction and calcium:phosporous. For the iron, you can just donate blood 4x per year.
  29. There's this diet that has some Ray Peat's things but gives more importance to raw meat, from Aajonus Vonderplanitz.
    It's low/no starches, lots of exotic fruits (papayas, pineapple, mangos...), some vegetable juices to avoid fibres, raw milk/cheese/cream everyday and lot of raw meat. IMO it's the diet between carnivore and Peat's.
  30. This is actually pretty normal, most all people should have a response similar to this unless they already have "adrenal fatigue". Our bodies can stay warm and keep running efficiently on cortisol and stress metabolism for a short period. That's why we have it in the first place. Prolonged exposure to elevated levels of stress hormones eventually wears you down. You're feeling good at the 3 month mark, but give it some time. I'll be a believer myself if you still feel good at the 3 year mark, but it's unlikely to happen.
  31. I second that. Feeling good =/= being healthy. Adrenaline actually makes you feel great in the short term and can be confused for health. The reverse is also true, which is sometimes what makes navigating being healthy a tricky business.

    Report back in a year or two and let us know if you still feel good.
  32. I'll stay around and i'll update yeah.
    I've read what you say multiple times. And since I come from another extreme (vegan diet), despite it being high carb, I think I've experienced what burning on "high cortisol and adrenaline" feels like. At first I had just so much energy. I was always doing physical activity (running, gym) because i HAD to. I felt so energized I had to move a lot. I thought I was just healthy. Few months after, I couldn't escape it: way leaner, but also "out". Eventho I had high energy all through this experiment I was still often anxious in term of social relationships and stuff. I felt weak all along despite high energy. And came this period where my brain disconnected for a couple of months, I was just feeling empty, exhausted, out of my mind. I relieved this mental pain... Just by eating liver.

    I feel so sturdy, physically and emotionnally speaking now, that I really can't be convinced I'm on high cortisol and other bad stuff. My body built muscle mass eventho I didn't train. Feel more compact.

    That being said, things can obviously change.
  33. Micronutrient deficiencies are typically a problem on vegan diets. Sugar is fuel, but you need all the necessary components to metabolize the sugar properly. Deficient vegans often run into problems here because they aren't eating nutrient rich foods (liver, shellfish, eggs, etc.) to help process the sugars. You could've been stressing yourself out by eating a bunch of sugar and not having enough vitamins and minerals. Also, it's always typically better to eat 5 or 6 smaller meals then 3 big meals on a high carb diet. This way you can keep your blood glucose levels steady throughout the entire day. If your blood sugar tanks your body will release cortisol to bring the blood sugar back up to normal levels again. Do what makes you feel good, but more times then not when people start feeling bad they never attribute it to their diets because they think back and remember how good they felt when they started.
  34. @Bogdar Yeah but milk has the least pleasant opioid effect, possibly because it triggers Histamine more than other types and/or maybe because milk isn't easy to digest for some and the undigested Casein and Lactose particles produce an unpleasant effect on their own. I think both of these properties can also contribute to mental fog and autistic thinking more than strict opioid ligands do.

    For meat, I was thinking more of Tianeptine in recreational doses (only actual opiate I've tried), since I seem to remember a similar but lighter effect from eating bloody meat. Also opioids suppress Testosterone but Carnitine increases it (as well as having relatively high Iron levels seems to help on the T side), so this could also contribute to produce a more pleasant effect, though probably only transiently as both Carnitine and Iron should theoretically be health-deteriorating.
  35. You would think that, but the evidence of Stefannson living on meat for a year and getting regular medicals by doctors, and the testimonials of others who have lived on a meat and water diet for several years, seems to suggest that there is a lot that we still don’t understand about metabolism.
  36. Or you're looking at exceptions for whom the personality (mental stress) and lifestyle components are optimal enough to offset such damage. We also don't know how long we're supposed to live. We are impressed by people living to 90 years old despite having (allegedly) bad dietary habits yet don't consider how stress is one of the main driver of aging and most of these people seem to be very low stress and have had a matching lifestyle. So this personality component (and a bit of luck) seems enough to make you live to 100 years old despite various unoptimal parameters. But if we lived in a society that promotes serenity, and more people had the chance to develop a serene character then we could observe more evidently the impact of diets (like say, the all-meat dieters would die at 100 but those with attention to various details we "know" meat negatively affects could live much longer, considering cells are theoretically immortal in optimal conditions [low oxidative damage would imply relatively low Iron levels; relatively low Tryptophan and Arginine more or less implying relatively low protein intake] and more optimization can be done nowadays with supps). As this isn't the case, I think any anectodal evidence of long-lived people can easily be explained by personality alone.

    edit : Also the evidence of someone doing a diet for a year doesn't mean anything. People are chugging pufas and stressing their lives away in the modern world but it still takes about 30-40 years before most of them start to get seriously ill.
  37. I would tend to agree on stress - based upon my personal experiences and observations in others, I now believe stress is the driver of ALL disease and disorder in the body (I believe Haidut basically posted a study awhile back saying as much), and driving stress down is literally the #1 most important thing to do, and environmental stressors and lack of sleep are the two great offenders, as well as lack of sunlight, even more than diet (IMHO).

    The oldest living WW2 veteran has the most sedentary lifestyle possible , though from what I recall, he eats fairly peaty (high saturated fat and sugars), and smokes cigars every day. Part of the key to his success I believe is because every day, he sits on his porch, and just chills, talks to neighbors etc. Social, sunlight, nature, relaxed... all keys to lower stress.
  38. i ate nothing but meat for 4 weeks recently (clarified butter, cream and coffee too)

    my only problem with it is that i felt AMAZING when i ate enough but it got expensive to eat enough. 2-3 ribeyes per day minimum ontop of my bacon and eggs etc really starting taking it's toll on my finances - however i work 7 days a week and my job is quite active and i was able to adapt fairly quickly.

    i slept like a baby, so i'm not convinced it skyrockets stress. it cleared up my horrible icky white tongue (literally the only thing that's ever worked in ten years) it made my skin look first class and i put on muscle despite not exercising and being in a calorie deficit (my metabolism is naturally high so i need around 3500 cals as a baseline). my digestion was near perfect as well, and despite being -5 degrees outside, i could happily tolerate it BAREFOOT so long as i was eating enough.

    i didn't start the diet with the intention of doing it forever, i did it as an experiment and i was surprised by how effective it is. sugar cravings just die a mighty death after about a week and you my only cravings were for ribeye steaks and liver. i balanced the amino acids by eating pork rinds and made magnesium bicarbonated water to help balance my eletrolytes.

    my first experiment on the diet was to drink a glass of milk about 4weeks in. i digested the milk fine but it gave me insomnia. next day i tried again and i had one of the worst headaches i've had in a long time. later i tried eating blueberries and the strength i felt from the sugar rush was immense. it gave me an idea of exactly what sugar does - i was strong enough to work out and do everything i normally do on a high carb diet, i simply lacked the initial oompf that comes with sugar, but i wasn't weaker.

    if i was to do it again i would include egg shell calcium and do it during the summer to maximize my outdoor vit d levels.

    my only major takeaway is that starch is bad (i only eat sourdough now cuz it's cheap and i tolerate it) and that getting enough protein is absolutely vital for good health. (100g+ minimum)
  39. If meat only diet is so bad, then what these people make so euphoric? They do it for 6 months, a year, they still feel better on it than before when they ate carbs .
  40. the body uses meat extremely efficiently and i think it is akin to the benefits of fasting - minimal endotoxin allows for maximum digestion without the sugar rushes

    the satisfaction i got from a very rare ribeye was equal to or greater than any satiation i got from high carb. i think carbs are important if you're very active, but i believe that if you are not making use of the sugars to power your body, that it is ultimately redundant.

    i watch vegetable police's videos since he went vfrom 10 years vegan to six months carnivore and his major issue seems to be that it fixed all his problems, except that when he tries to incorporate vegetables back into his diet, his problems come back.
  41. lmao big boy report back when you cant sleep, your lifts are tanking, you feel sick from eating ridiculous amounts of fat and your midsection bloats up if you as much as think about a carb. yes it will make you feel good short-term (lol) but "short-term" is a relative term, but the fact is that it will break you, and the longer you insist on doing it, the more damage you will inflict. if you care to look, you'd see that a lot of paleo/keto guys are now coming apart at the seams, wondering and scratching their heads over sleeplessness, "mysterious" low testosterone levels, extremely high cortisol levels etc.

    believe me when i tell you that it won't be a gradual thing either. you'll wake up one morning and won't hardly be able to get out of bed, with cortisol levels 10x what they should be
  42. agnar knows.
  43. there is a doctor on youtube who's been 100% carnivore for 3-4 years. his blood work pretty much invalidates everything you just said

    ido portal also only eats fruit when he does intense work outs. besides that he eats mostly meat and green veggies and has been consistent with it for over a decade, and he is probably one of healthiest people on the planet xD

    so i'm guessing you aren't speaking from experience \o/
  44. I hope you're not talking about Shawn Baker, are you? I'm almost positive that's the guy who had lower then normal testosterone levels and his fasting glucose was like 130, lol. Mic the Vegan, who normally is bro science central for the vegans, actually did a pretty good piece on this guy, all pseudoscience aside.
  45. depending on how much of the animal you're consuming (liver, intestinal wall, brain, etc.), you could probably go more than that and still function to some degree, but there is no need to do that and it's going to be extremely expensive. however, the regular keto all-meat dieter will crash much sooner than that and then will be back here on peat forum injecting himself with orange juice wearing 12 blankets begging people to send him some human grade t3 that he can apply topically to his rectum. and i seriously hope you're not talking about shawna baker lol, the man has massive ***s, is bald, literally exudes unhealthiness and has the testosterone levels of an old woman (srs, he got it tested). ido portal eats fruits and veggies as you said, and he also injects testosterone and hasnt been doing a meat centered diet for that long. how long you can go on these types of diets is relative to how broken your health is to begin with, and people desperate enough to forego eating everything but STEAKS (and yes, this is not normal by any accounts - 99.999 % of the world's population wouldn't even consider this lol) are probably in a fairly dire state. once placebo wears off and endos cleared up a bit from pufa reduction, chickens come home to roost etc yada yada. you can figure this out for yourself, but it's really just up to how much repair work you're willing to risk having to do
  46. I found this interesting...dozens of testimonials from people eating only meat?!...Eat Meat. Drink Water.
  47. Where are you getting that testosterone injection claim from? I hold his movement philosophy in high esteem and very much admire his skills, but I would be very disappointed in him if he used PEDs, or uses them and doesn't disclose it

    I think listening to positive testimonials can have their merit, but should be viewed with healthy skepticism, especially when there exists ample amounts of negative testimonials as well. I'd say the same thing with a vegan diet, where there are plenty of positive testimonials of it saving people's lives, but then also testimonials of it absolutely wrecking people's health.

    What's even more concerning is that the dietary cult followers will then castigate the person, claiming they simply did the diet wrong and there's nothing wrong with their insanely extreme orthorexic diet.

    I'm not sure if I can make the claim that unless a diet produces optimal health in 100% of people, it's not an optimal human diet, but I'd want something approximating that.

    It's also kind of funny, usually we have a negativity bias, but it seems for diets we have a positivity bias, where we choose to believe all the positives of why a certain diet we have pre-determined to be the best and disregard all the negative evidence. Actually I think the term for this may be confirmation bias?

    In my experience, both vegan and carnivore diets were absolutely terrible for my health.
  48. Big improvement yesterday and today in terms of energy levels after optimising a bit.

    Replaced dairy fat / butter with organic tallow and stopped eating collagen. Remembered that in the past after eating milk / cheese I always got sleepy. So replaced butter. Same for collagen.

    Was eating ground beef for the collagen instead of steaks, however normal fatty steak cuts seem to work better in terms of energy for me.
  49. You're probably right.

    However carnivore diet is no such thing as "keto/paleo" diet. The only thing they have in common is low carb. It's like comparing Peat-style diet and whatever other diet fueling on carbs.
  50. Could the reason for the good results of all meat / carnivore in comparison to keto and high fat diets be the high amount of protein?

    Most carnivore proponents are not running around with keto stripes and drinking coffee with butter all day long.

    They just eat lots of meat / protein.

    They get their glucose via gluconeogenesis, while the keto proponents actually run low on glucose?
  51. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    since the boys above this line seem unwilling to learn and insist on going ahead with their based grocery store carnivore diet, in a desperate search to downregulate their "testosterone resistance", i will reserve all posts beneath the following line for posts of the type "im so sorry agnar, you were right, i will never be a carnivore again , please give me back my morning wood", specifically posted by sebastiern and bodgar

  52. Too anyone who completes the 30 days, I’d be interested to see what happens if you try to add fruit juice into the diet after.

    The carnivore diet definetly seems to have its merits. It seems to essentially be a fast, as others have mentioned, providing nutrition without feeding a dysbiotic colon and avoiding the irritative plant compounds. I believe if people utilized juice with the meat they’d essentially maximize the fasting effect while simultaneously maximizing the nutrition aspect. If they also added in some of the missing nutrients I also think this would have a long term benefit.

    From an evolutionary perspective we are essentially higher order primates similar to bonobos and chimps who evolved out of the trees onto the savannah hunting big game. Add in the periods of ice ages and migration towards the poles of the planet, the specific of our digestive tracts, and the consistent seemingly optimal macro ratios found across almost all large mammals and it seems that the ideal human diet is one of meat, fat and fruit/ honey with perhaps a grey area of starchy roots and dairy (the grey area is individual tolerance dependent).
    Thus a diet of fatty red meat and fruit juice with some supplements like calcium, magnesium, vit d, vit k, vit e and some b vitamins (for fun, not really neccesary) seems pretty optimal from my perspective (if you can tolerate dairy then obviously you can ommit some supps).
  53. I tried beef and orange juice for a while.

    I felt fantastic, but got problems from the citric acid. And it did put me back into the modus of thinking about eating all day. With all meat I can eat once a day and be done.

    Further tried pineapple juice, apple juice and pear juice for a while, but those weren't working as well.

    Pineapple and pear juice stomach issues and pineapple eating my gums (besides that it was actually pretty good as well), apple juice didn't feel right at all.

    Best package overall was beef and orange juice for me. Runner up beef and pear juice. I might try carnivore with 2 days of carb load per week.
  54. why are you guys here if you're not interested in and willing to follow a peat based diet? if you read what he writes and try to implement the information, you will reach something very close to optimal health
  55. Experience is the best teacher.
  56. Jordan Peterson's looking the best I've ever seen him on an all beef diet, even though he was optimising his diet at the same time as coming off of anti-depressants. His face, skin, and body composition all look a lot more firm, lean and toned. I wouldn't recommend it personally though, I find too many benefits personally from my liver, orange juice, milk, cheese and coffee :D
  57. Can other people relay their experiences? Positive and negative anecdotes are much appreciated! I'm vegetarian and don't see myself ever consuming flesh, but was wondering if it is beneficial to increase the integration of dairy products in the diet. Thanks in advance!
  58. doc peat isn't always right, but he knows a lot more than i ever will, so i like to keep uptodate with his work

    someone said experience is the best way to learn and i agree. if someone tries peat and it doesn't fix ALL their problems, then naturally they will eventually try something else. repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of something. i can't recall what. but you seem to be advocating whatever that is xD

    telling people they aren't interested in or willing to follow a peat diet is really stupid. they are on the ray peat forum, so obvs we are all interested, and you don't know what people are willing to try, you're just assuming they are heretics to the cult of peat because they dared to consider going low carb for a few weeks lol

    i think people should try things and see how it makes them feel, instead of forcing themselves to follow advice from other people because they lack faith in their own judgement. but each to their own ;o
  59. Just the new trendy fad going around now days. You can go to YouTube, type in "carnivore diet", and have a plethora of pseudointellectuals ready to tell you why you should never eat another plant food. From what I can tell, the carnivore community if filled with basically two types of people, vegan reactionaries and former ketoers who simply thought keto wasn't "good enough". The vegan reactionaries are perhaps the most vocal, like sv3rige's channel for instance. Truth is you should probably stay far away from this community. For one, they're just flat out wrong. But also their cultist behavior is influential on anyone looking to better their nutrition. A lot of them take the stance of "eat like our ancestors ate." Just to throw a key fact out there, the average carbohydrate consumption for our primitive ancestors was between 20-30% (few exceptions of course, like the Inuit, who were unhealthy). This of course wildly varies on your geographical location, but even on the lower side of the average, we weren't even close to the low carb/no carb zones these people are recommending. All this said, I think the edition of protein via dairy is a very good choice. Lots of calcium for one thing, which enhances the metabolic rate. But also milk is only like 3% protein, so it's really hard to overdo it in regards to protein. 2 quarts of milk only provides a little over 60 grams of protein. The only thing to be mindful of is high amounts of calcium can deplete copper status in the body.
  60. @agnar

    have tried peats approach for several months.

    It did not work for me.

    Fruits are bad for my teeth and gums, I get stomach problems from some, and brain fog.

    Dairy gives me digestion problems and makes me sleepy / tired and not the best mood.

    Rice and Potatoes gives me social anxiety / depression and skin problems.
    (tested as well all supplements, vit a showed some promise / improvement but got severe side effects from it)

    Then I tried meat only, zero problems.

    The only problem I had came from trying to implement some additional stuff with dairy fat and collagen.

    I'm still not giving up on peats approach, because being able to eat sugar and having more variety is more appealing than just eating meat, but the results I'm getting are simply not good.
  61. Dairy mixed with bitter chocolate and sugar helps substantially with digestion, should you be willing to give it a try again
  62. I think I have experienced the dairy with sugar effect in the past, ice cream (high in sugar) I have zero problems with, feel great after eating it.
  63. Low carb brought my temps down to 96F. We're trying to save people the pain. I agree Dr. Peat is not right on everything, but he's definitely right on carbs. "Trying peat and failing" is way too simplistic a statement. There is no "specific" way to "try peat" except some of the more general guidelines like don't avoid sugar, don't eat PUFA, etc. Everyone's specific application may include or exlude some foods. Also other aspects besides nutrition matter significantly like optimizing your environment (altitude, beach, tropical climate, getting out of bad jobs/relationships etc... If you failed I daresay it's not because of Peat, it's because of your specific approach. Sorry if I am sounding rude, I legitimately am trying to prevent someone else from going down the road I did when I thought I had fructose / dairy intolerance and had to go low FODMAP (and thus I did a high meat low carb diet) and crashed and burned HARD.

    BTW - most OJ and milk is DEAD food and will DAMAGE your metabolism not heal it. THIS is where most people fail. OJ is only healing if its (organic) fresh preshed (best to do it yourself), and milk is only good food if it is RAW MILK and ideally drink the DAY YOU MILKED THE COW. This is based upon new research I've personally done. Commercial milk is DEAD (pasteurization literally destroys the life giving energy of milk) and won't heal you. Because nearly every newbie to peat is familiar with the infamous "2 quarts of OJ a day and 1 gallon of milk a day" (or however that quote goes), this is a reasonable way to destroy your health if the OJ and milk is poor quality. Now, if you own your own farm and fresh presh your own fresh organic oranges and milk and drink from your own grass-fed cows. That's a totally different story.

    I bet no one is going to listen to me still, but hey, I tried.
  64. I agree with the sentiment of fresh pressed and raw being better, but for many people it’s unrealistic to achieve this without extra effort. But I wouldn’t agree with these foods as dead foods and offer no nutritional benefit, as I personally think that may be taking things too far. There are still micronutrients in all of these foods, but they may not be as high in quantity and with the additional enzymes and what not that the higher quality foods would have.

    I’d rather consume pasteurized milk, store bought oj, and grain fed meat then eat a white rice, bread, potato, and legumes diet.

    I think it’s better to incorporate these foods to the extent possible, and then when the means present themselves, upgrade to the next tier of higher quality foods.
  65. Sorry maybe I should clarify. When I say "Dead" foods it does not provide benefit or even detracts from the overall "Angstrom" energy of the body specifically. You may get a few nutrients and some macronutrients to help sustain you in the short-term but you can't obtain long-term health while continuing to eat foods like that long-term.

    The best example of this is most high PUFA SAD foods and fast foods, donuts. Sure they keep you alive by providing calories, but they're not long term health promoting at all. It's a bit unfair probably to compare low quality milk to a donut, but just trying to explain what I mean.
  66. He certainly does. He's describing exactly what happened to me and the reason I'm here. My crash wasn't overnight -- it was shorter. Woke up and by lunchtime it felt like I blew my left knee out on the football field. By evening both knees were stiff and painful to the point where it was affecting my balance.
  67. I find it a little amusing how we’re so quick to trash the cultish nature of the carnivore movement (which is ironically also trashing the vegan movement) while at the same time saying you’re just not Peating right. At least we’re not telling people you just need time to adjust.

    I don’t think Peat would ever recommend a carnivore diet and I think he’d be concerned about the amount of animal flesh consumed. I also don’t think he recommend a vegan diet, but you can still apply Peat’s approach and make food choices that are more aligned with your desires.

    I’m interested in how you could apply Peat’s principles to make the carnivore approach more balanced. It’s a bit hard to address the lack of carbohydrates (except with milk maybe?) but I think it could be quite nutritious and potentially healing for some people. I think you would need to encorpororate organ meats (liver in moderation) and possibly gelatine in some form. I think dairy and eggs would also be good. If you were to then add fruit to the mix it would start looking pretty peatish (although admittedly more omnivorous).

    The dead foods factor is an interesting one too. Many of the carnivores seem to be eating a lot of raw or very undercooked animal products presumably for the same reasons. Maybe it’s for shock factor or because they are obsessed with being the caveman, but the long term carnivores seem to prefer their meat and organs on the raw side. Overcooked meat does seem pretty lifeless.
  68. Hi, I'm a newbie to Ray Peat forum. I tried the Carnivore diet for 15 months. I felt great in the beginning but had to stop because I've become very sensitive and developed allergies to many spices, coffee, tea and also dairy. In the last months I could not fall asleep before 2 or 3 am. I was so tired. I started to lose my hair and regularly get stomach flu.
    Before that diet I went raw vegan for nearly 3 years. I had to stop it for health issues and adopted a vegetarian diet. After that I tried the ketogenic diet for 2 years.
    I have to admit that all these diets are not working for my body in the long run. I think because they are based on too simplistic principles and tend to ignore the complexity of the body.
  69. That’s an interesting journey CatCat. So you went from raw vegan to keto to carnivore?

    It sounds like you were suffering from stress.

    As I wade through this carnivore stuff, I’m fascinated by the emphasis on fish and fish eggs for omega 3. It seems they’re totally against the omega 6 oils but still caught up in the EFA hype.

    It seems grass fed ruminant animals are preferred but I’ve seen an awful lot of pics of deep fried chicken, pork chops and bacon.

    How are you going incorporating carbs back into your diet?
  70. Actually, all people of European descent are cellulose intolerant.

    So they're right, carnivorism is a suitable solution.
  71. Guys, just to be clear.... when you say "fixed all of my/his problems" you mean it fixed them as long as you/he was following the all meat diet, right ? As soon as you go back to a more balanced diet, the problems come back. Do I get it right ?

    I am asking this because for me a "cure" is a "cure". Not a temporary remedy.
  72. Yes, you stop eating the plants / food that are causing problems and the problems go away. You start eating the plants that are causing problems again....problems come back. It's an elimination diet.
  73. So eat all meat first then maybe add a seasonal fruit, once that fruit seems to not give problems well cooked potatoes? Another fruit, milk?
  74. Most people who add something outside of animal products seem to do well with starch white rice, potatoes, white bread.

    That's what I'm currently doing as well.

    Added those three and working well so far.

    Fruits i get problems from, fruit jelly seems to be alright.

    Many drink milk or eat cheese as addition to carnivore.
  75. Where did you find this information?
  76. It's freely available information. I was also making a sarcastic joke (being that everyone is cellulose intolerant, yet we still eat plant foods anyway, while people think that 60% of the population should stay away from dairy)
  77. From Wikipedia:

    Some animals, particularly ruminants and termites, can digest cellulose with the help of symbiotic micro-organisms that live in their guts, such as Trichonympha. In human nutrition, cellulose is a non-digestible constituent of insoluble dietary fiber, acting as a hydrophilic bulking agent for feces and potentially aiding in defecation.
  78. They’re basically starches I’d consider Peatish (as long as the whitebread didn’t have PUFA). Do you eat them with the animal products or do you seperate them?

    So did you try the fruit by itself or was it in combination?
  79. I eat rice / potatoes / bread during the day. Gives me great energy and focus.
    The meat I eat before I go to bed, around 500g beef / lamb cooked with tallow.
    Tested fruits solo and in combination.
  80. u go bald
  81. That's why I made this topic. I go bald drinking orange juice and milk. I can't handle fruit, most vegetables and spices and only feel good after eating meat. Potatoes rice and rice mess me up good but I can handle wheat fine. Everybody is different and while I believe Ray knows what he's talking about with all food and substance functions that go into the body not everybody will feel good while following the recommendations he's said. Some people need meat to feel well and some people can look like a body builder eating nothing but rice, beans and vegetables.
  82. Hi Glassy
    You're right I easily get stressed. Most people on carnivore diet do not care about the quality of the meat. It seems to work even if you eat meat at mc donalds regularly. The thing is to eat enough. The average is 2 pounds per day to me it's quite an expensive diet. So generally people tell you to simply eat the meat you can afford and do not bother if it is grass fed or not.
    In case you don't have enough energy they generally recommend to eat more.
    Generally if you want to eat eggs you have to eat a lot of eggs to fulfil your needs because it does not provide enough nutrients as meat.
    Some people cannot do dairy as it can be allergenic or because it have more carbs than meat.
    Some veterans seem to thrive on this diet for they are on it 10 years or more.
    I have started to eat white rice again trying to heal an acute gastroenteritis. And it worked. I noticed that during these days with white rice my allergies have disappeared. So I googled and stumbled across Ray Peat articles. After some weeks reading I decided to stop the carnivore diet.
    Now I can drink coffee again with milk and lot of sugar. It's like a medicine too me. I'm amazed to not have to live with the allergies no more and the icing on the cake is that I can have a good night sleep again
  83. Welcome @CatCat

    If folks here believe the science that Ray Peat talks about, I don't see how they can eat an all-meat diet.

    Cortisol has to be high. Otherwise your blood sugar would be too low. I don't see how "being calm" is any indication of health here because cortisol is calming.

    I do think sometimes people can do really well with a change in their diet if they are suffering. And maybe going to all-meat might be helpful temporarily. But I wouldn't stay on it very long.
  84. yeah but from my understanding meat is a ton of phosphate, and that phosphate slowly messes up the calcium metabolism. i feel like that is why vegans tend to not go bald, because they are really low phosphate from not eating any meat.

    however, i've read on this forum that what's more important than the phosphate you are eating is the ratio of calcium to phosphate.
  85. I'm very skeptical about quality of meat tho. Even if it works for some people I won't advice to eat whatever meat comes to you. I'm personaly very meticulous about the quality of my food and everything is local and grass fed, and it works for me.
    It's nice you came to a diet that better fits you. However 2 pounds of meat a day ?? It's quite a lot ! I know some big men do even more than 2 pounds a day, and I have actually tried this for few weeks (1kg meat a day) and without noticing it I was eating more protein-to-fat ratio. I ended up with something that looked like gastroenteritis, intense abdominal pain with diarrhea. After a week I found out that it was just about not enough fat to protein.
    I wonder if it could apply to you with 2 pounds of meat a day ? I think it is well known about meat-only-eaters and it is called rabbit starvation.
  86. You could try cutting out the fruits / orange juice and see if that helps.
    When I drink orange juice or eat other fruits I get dry scalp skin and hair loss very fast.
    On meat and starch+fat I have no hair loss issues.
  87. yes it definitely has to do with issues in our gut. if i eat a lot of sugar i get itchy and i see more gaps in the hair. its probably a yeast problem.
  88. I’ve been on it for 5 days now. I’ve spent 12 hours in excruciating pain which I’ve figured out is gall stones. Going from a diet which is high in carbs and pretty low in fat to the opposite has brought this to the surface I think. The pain was intolerable and I was close to going to hospital except that it was NYE and that’s not a good day to go to hospital. I also didn’t want to lose my gall bladder.

    The biggest benefit I see people getting from this diet is a total abstinence of irritating plant fibre and of course PUFA. This seems to quickly alleviate inflammation and conditions caused by inflammation especially for folks coming from SAD or low carb diets. People attribute it to the healing power of meat but I’d say a lot of the benefit is coming from what they’re not eating.

    There are folks who buy stacks of Wendy’s burger patty’s, deep fried chicken wings, etc and then others who maintain the beef (grass fed) and water stance. Liver is widely revered as a concentrated nutrient source and organ meat in general is looked on favourably.
  89. Most people on carnivore diet will tell you not care about the fat ratio. It depends on how you feel. There is no ratio to follow, nothing complicated as the keto diet. Just meat and water. Add some dairy if you can digest it and butter or lard if you feel it can help.
    I was feeling fine for a while eating like this and my mind was clear. I used to eat bacon and rib rye steak so I guessed my fat intake was sufficient. The problem was in the long run my digestive system became very sensitive to any spice, tea, coffee and dairy.
  90. You can be relieved by removing or reducing all high oxalates plants (spinach potatoes sweet potatoes beets chocolate ...) for a while. Have some vitamin K2 to avoid calcium to be fixed on software
  91. Soft tissues.
  92. I don’t think an increased sensitivity like that means a declining health status though? How were you feeling besides that? Energy/sleep/mood?
  93. I developed a kind of allergy with symptoms like permanent runny nose watery eyes and nasal congestion for a couple of days.
    What bothered me is that I also had repetitive gastroenteritis crisis. So I could not absorb enough nutrients to feel fine anymore. I was exhausted and could not eat enough.
  94. It's a new trend diet which gets many things right compared to any fad diet before:

    -focus on high nutrient dense foods (eggs, muscle meat, organ meats, shellfish, dairy)
    -avoidance of high PUFA oils
    -avoidance of irritant plant foods and antinutrients

    But it has some ridiculous tenets held by a majority of its proponents:

    -Sugar is evil and causes many ailments
    -Plants in general should be avoided

    I guess it always has to be extreme to be exciting enough for people.
    Why should sugar be toxic and be avoided? Ripe fruit tastes awesome. Why has our sense of taste evolved to be highly sensitive to sugars if its detrimental to our health? It doesn't make any sense.

    To be fair, some popular proponents consume honey and lots of milk, which makes it moderate or low carb at least.
    Sv3rige for example drinks 1 liter of milk a day. This is not low or no carb. Also very fresh liver and muscle contains sugar/glycogen.

    Eventually all inteligent people will come to their senses and realize that it's most beneficial to take the best of both worlds, or even combine them in homemade icecream for example.:cool:
  95. you aren't going bald drinking orange juice.. just forget it, honestly. there is no mechanism that would entail this. now, i know a lot of people are paranoid about milk, but i seriously doubt it could have this effect. you probably read somewhere that "milk makes you bald m8 better stop swiggin ; )" and now you have convinced yourself that every drop of milk takes a mm away from your hairline.

    also lol, i seriously hope nobody on this forum is considering doing a carnivore diet. if you do it and you feel better on it, i can pretty much guarantee you that carbs weren't the problem in the first place but that you eliminated some other factor causing whatever you perceived to be ailing you. start from a peaty peaty type of diet and try eliminating one staple item at a time, then adding them back again, making note of any changes. an all-meat diet will never be optimal and will have severe hormonal consequences, literally regardless of who you are. that said, you can get away with it short-term and probably feel good, but over the long term there's just no way that it won't wreck you
  96. Both oranges and milk give me an odd dandruff coming out the ears!

    They are both high in calcium and low in magnesium so maybe they both lead to calcification in the soft tissues in the absence of other foods to balance this...?
  97. Oranges are high in calcium and low in magnesium? All the sources I have seen say that the Ca:Mg ratio is about 1:1. You might have looked at fortified orange juice. For milk the ratio is greater than 10:1.
  98. i remove orange juice and milk and the scalp pain stops.

    another question, what fish are safe to eat in large amounts?