What Happens On An All Meat Diet?

[tankasnowgod]

On calcium inhibiting iron absorption. If one evolves on a high calcium diet, they will have higher iron.

This is empirically supported by western and particularly northwest Europeans having higher iron levels than eastern ones, with lactase persistence following the same pattern.

If that "Primarily Northwest Europeans" includes England..... that country also engages in Iron Fortification.

Calcium does indeed inhibit iron absorption in the same meal..... but I am no longer sure about the long term effects. Calcium Channel Blockers inhibit both calcium and iron. It appears that both minerals are absorbed through some of the same channels.

Also, if the studies that you refer to didn't take intestinal parasites like hookworm (that feed on host blood) into account..... that is a massive oversight

 

[ATP]

With the recent increase in popularity of the carnivore diet, a lot of people are trying it and feeling the better than ever. Except for the benefits in gut health, it completely goes against all of Ray’s work.

 

[Cirion]

Low energy by definition means unhealthy. I am 100% confident in saying body temps and pulses are weak/low alongside that low energy which has a 100% positive correlation to unhealth.

I'll save you the energy (ahaha, see what I did there) and tell you this - a meat diet will tank your metabolism into the depths of hades. In fact, it's the last thing I basically did before I completely ruined my health and came back here. My temps were in the 96's after that fiasco.

You may feel good at first - I did actually, but it won't last. I know people who are absolutely determined to do a meat diet won't listen to me, so dunno why I bother. But don't say I didn't warn anyone.

 

[charlie]

I'll save you the energy (ahaha, see what I did there) and tell you this - a meat diet will tank your metabolism into the depths of hades.

There it is. It had to be said.

 

[Bogdar]

When there are perceived benefits from such diet (at least initially), I think that this is mainly because it restricts an ongoing bacterial/pathogenic overgrowth (and so Endotoxins-related inflammation and stress) by restricting carbs. Plenty of studies show that they preferentially feed on glucose, sucrose and starch and as such each are also shown to promote biofilm formation. Honey doesn't have this effect. I think for instance that the effect of Endotoxins on stress levels is so important that the lack of carbs also promoting Cortisol doesn't offset this if the reduction in Endos is important and so produces a net reduction of average stress levels. Anyway this is what I experienced with IF which is also known to reduce Endotoxins, I had the idea based on Peat that IF would be stressing but for me, at a time when gut health wasn't great, it produced a significant decrease in chronic stress.

Another reason it can help is the implied avoidance of gut irritants. Say, when one's staple source of carbs is known to trigger symptoms of IBS in sufferers and has known gut-irritating properties (gluten, iron fortified cereals, potatoes, corn, cocoa, excess Fructose and Fructose malabsorption, Lactose malabsorption, etc) then the simple action of removing them can be very beneficial. Lastly, another reason would be the increased intake of Vitamin A in people who were previously deficient.

So with those considered and resolved in Peaty ways, I think you can have your cake and eat it too and that it would be much healthier than an all-meat/low carbs diet. Mainly by systematically using antiseptics with carbs sources (for instance 2 tsps of coconut oil with every meal), more focused antibacterial protocols if needed, avoiding the foods that don't agree with your gut and tackling other factors related to gut health (gastric acid secretion, temperature/metabolism, stress and serotonin, gut linings integrity).

It is interesting. However i'm not convinced at all that it applies to my case. Furthermore I think that carnivore diet is not the same thing AT ALL than low carb diet/"mainstream" keto diet. It is really 2 different diets.
I know how I am/behave when I'm under stress, or under low metabolism and vice versa. I suffered from social anxiety, chronic fatigue, insomnia, and other stuff like "addiction", i.e I was easily getting addicted to whatever gave me pleasure. Btw I used to eat liver for vitamin A and other stuff before switching to carnivore.
Now everysingle one of the above disappeard. I mean it's like a miracle. Anxiety really disappeared with increased energy levels since I'm always thinking "positively", energetic now. No more addictive behavior. And also I found back who I really was before these anxiety disorders. It feels so calm, so light. I can't say that I'm just in a "lower stress state" than before. I'm just not stressed anymore. It feels pleasant. I'm not here to argue which diet is the best or why carnivore works, just saying that whatever we can say, I have so many reasons to keep doing it, and no reasons to leave it now. :)

I don't know what meats you are primarily eating, but every time I've looked up various cuts of beef on Nutrition Data, the Glycine to Methionine ratio has always been quite positive. I've mainly checked ground, chuck, New York, and Ribeye, and all have a lot more glycine than methionine. They have all had better ratios than dairy or eggs. Gelatious cuts like Oxtail or Shanks should be even better.

Chris Masterjohn, as well as Ray Peat, said that classic muscle meat was too high in methionine compared to glycine. Ratios don't seem to be well established however. And it must depends on the cut of the meat. I eat tough meat, also softer like rib eye and stuff, also bony-gelatiny parts, and organs like liver and hearts.

I'll save you the energy (ahaha, see what I did there) and tell you this - a meat diet will tank your metabolism into the depths of hades.

By experience (only 3 month) I can't agree with that. The opposite is happening to me. Really good energy throughout the day. I'm hardly out of breath, and in Ray Peat's measures, I have hot extremities, this time of the year i'm usually depressed because of the cold and I'm not for the first time. Also, I always feel this heat inside me it's hard to describe but truly pleasant.

 

[lvysaur]

If that "Primarily Northwest Europeans" includes England..... that country also engages in Iron Fortification.

The clinical hemochromatosis is a mostly hereditary thing. The subclinical high iron levels could be more prone to environmental factors. Either way, the evolutionary trend makes perfect sense. People with such ancestry would have been drinking milk very often, since milk is a relatively sustainable resource.

In the face of such high calcium consumption, high iron levels would evolve to compensate. And that's exactly what the evidence shows--high lactase populations have higher iron.

 

[Elephanto]

@Bogdar Another possible factor with meat is the presence of opioid peptides. Made me think of this when you mention the feeling of calmness and pleasure.
Opioid receptor ligands derived from food proteins. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[tankasnowgod]

Chris Masterjohn, as well as Ray Peat, said that classic muscle meat was too high in methionine compared to glycine. Ratios don't seem to be well established however. And it must depends on the cut of the meat. I eat tough meat, also softer like rib eye and stuff, also bony-gelatiny parts, and organs like liver and hearts.

I know they've both said that..... but I just can't find evidence to back that up. These are the numbers I find in the NutritionData Database. Go to "more Details" under protein to get AA breakdown. (Ratios are what's important, I'm just using the default serving)

80/20 ground beef- Glycine 344mg/Methionine 122mg Beef, ground, 80% lean meat / 20% fat, raw [hamburger] Nutrition Facts & Calories

Ribeye- 4211mgG/1799mg M Beef, ground, 80% lean meat / 20% fat, raw [hamburger] Nutrition Facts & Calories

New York Strip - 1494 G/ 639 M Beef, short loin, top loin, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, all grades, cooked, broiled [Club Steak, Kansas City Strip, New York Strip] Nutrition Facts & Calories

Chuck - 3503 G/1645 M Beef, chuck, blade roast, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, choice, cooked, braised [Top Blade Steak, URMIS #1879] Nutrition Facts & Calories

Compare to...

Whole Egg - 1050 G/924 M Egg, whole, raw, fresh Nutrition Facts & Calories

Whole Milk - 183 G/ 183M Milk, whole, 3.25% milkfat Nutrition Facts & Calories

Cheddar Cheese- 566 G/ 861M Cheese, cheddar Nutrition Facts & Calories

So, muscle meat is coming in at between 2:1 or 3:1 depending on the cut, while eggs and milk are close to 1:1 (maybe closer to 1:2 in the case of some cheeses). Where are they getting their information on the ratios, and are the numbers on that database THAT far off?

 

[Bogdar]

I know they've both said that..... but I just can't find evidence to back that up. These are the numbers I find in the NutritionData Database. Go to "more Details" under protein to get AA breakdown. (Ratios are what's important, I'm just using the default serving)

80/20 ground beef- Glycine 344mg/Methionine 122mg Beef, ground, 80% lean meat / 20% fat, raw [hamburger] Nutrition Facts & Calories

Ribeye- 4211mgG/1799mg M Beef, ground, 80% lean meat / 20% fat, raw [hamburger] Nutrition Facts & Calories

New York Strip - 1494 G/ 639 M Beef, short loin, top loin, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, all grades, cooked, broiled [Club Steak, Kansas City Strip, New York Strip] Nutrition Facts & Calories

Chuck - 3503 G/1645 M Beef, chuck, blade roast, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, choice, cooked, braised [Top Blade Steak, URMIS #1879] Nutrition Facts & Calories

Compare to...

Whole Egg - 1050 G/924 M Egg, whole, raw, fresh Nutrition Facts & Calories

Whole Milk - 183 G/ 183M Milk, whole, 3.25% milkfat Nutrition Facts & Calories

Cheddar Cheese- 566 G/ 861M Cheese, cheddar Nutrition Facts & Calories

So, muscle meat is coming in at between 2:1 or 3:1 depending on the cut, while eggs and milk are close to 1:1 (maybe closer to 1:2 in the case of some cheeses). Where are they getting their information on the ratios, and are the numbers on that database THAT far off?

Wow I've never really looked into that, this is very interesting. I wondered if glycine content of a cut could be estimated by its toughness, but it doesn't seem so finally. Ribeye have a really nice ratio compared to what I thought.
According to Chris Masterjohn you would need 0.5-1g more glycine for each g of methionine. If there are such ratios in muscle meat I don't see the problem then. I don't know if Ray Peat advices a precise ratio range, or if he just estimates by looking at the glycine content of the whole animal compared to its methionine content.
Thank you for the info !

@Bogdar Another possible factor with meat is the presence of opioid peptides. Made me think of this when you mention the feeling of calmness and pleasure.
Opioid receptor ligands derived from food proteins. - PubMed - NCBI

I know what feeling you're refering to. I have this opioid sensation whenever I drink milk even in moderate amounts (1/4L), however this doesn't compare. Opiates gives calm and pleasure but also sluginess/tiredness. After a meal of raw meat I just feel ready for anything and calm at the same time.

 

[CLASH]

The only issue i see with the diet is the lack of carbs and possibly the lack of nutrients. The thing is, atleast according to Vilhamur Steffanson many people have thrived on the diet for extended periods of time and into old age.

To err on the safe side adding fruit juice to the all meat diet may not inhibit the positive effects the diet provides on the gut and it would cover most of peats tenants with the exception of iron restriction and calcium:phosporous. For the iron, you can just donate blood 4x per year.

 

[Bogdar]

The only issue i see with the diet is the lack of carbs and possibly the lack of nutrients. The thing is, atleast according to Vilhamur Steffanson many people have thrived on the diet for extended periods of time and into old age.

To err on the safe side adding fruit juice to the all meat diet may not inhibit the positive effects the diet provides on the gut and it would cover most of peats tenants with the exception of iron restriction and calcium:phosporous. For the iron, you can just donate blood 4x per year.

There's this diet that has some Ray Peat's things but gives more importance to raw meat, from Aajonus Vonderplanitz.
It's low/no starches, lots of exotic fruits (papayas, pineapple, mangos...), some vegetable juices to avoid fibres, raw milk/cheese/cream everyday and lot of raw meat. IMO it's the diet between carnivore and Peat's.

 

[TeaRex14]

By experience (only 3 month) I can't agree with that. The opposite is happening to me. Really good energy throughout the day. I'm hardly out of breath, and in Ray Peat's measures, I have hot extremities, this time of the year i'm usually depressed because of the cold and I'm not for the first time. Also, I always feel this heat inside me it's hard to describe but truly pleasant.

This is actually pretty normal, most all people should have a response similar to this unless they already have "adrenal fatigue". Our bodies can stay warm and keep running efficiently on cortisol and stress metabolism for a short period. That's why we have it in the first place. Prolonged exposure to elevated levels of stress hormones eventually wears you down. You're feeling good at the 3 month mark, but give it some time. I'll be a believer myself if you still feel good at the 3 year mark, but it's unlikely to happen.

 

[Cirion]

I second that. Feeling good =/= being healthy. Adrenaline actually makes you feel great in the short term and can be confused for health. The reverse is also true, which is sometimes what makes navigating being healthy a tricky business.

Report back in a year or two and let us know if you still feel good.

 

[Bogdar]

This is actually pretty normal, most all people should have a response similar to this unless they already have "adrenal fatigue". Our bodies can stay warm and keep running efficiently on cortisol and stress metabolism for a short period. That's why we have it in the first place. Prolonged exposure to elevated levels of stress hormones eventually wears you down. You're feeling good at the 3 month mark, but give it some time. I'll be a believer myself if you still feel good at the 3 year mark, but it's unlikely to happen.

I second that. Feeling good =/= being healthy. Adrenaline actually makes you feel great in the short term and can be confused for health. The reverse is also true, which is sometimes what makes navigating being healthy a tricky business.

Report back in a year or two and let us know if you still feel good.

I'll stay around and i'll update yeah.
I've read what you say multiple times. And since I come from another extreme (vegan diet), despite it being high carb, I think I've experienced what burning on "high cortisol and adrenaline" feels like. At first I had just so much energy. I was always doing physical activity (running, gym) because i HAD to. I felt so energized I had to move a lot. I thought I was just healthy. Few months after, I couldn't escape it: way leaner, but also "out". Eventho I had high energy all through this experiment I was still often anxious in term of social relationships and stuff. I felt weak all along despite high energy. And came this period where my brain disconnected for a couple of months, I was just feeling empty, exhausted, out of my mind. I relieved this mental pain... Just by eating liver.

I feel so sturdy, physically and emotionnally speaking now, that I really can't be convinced I'm on high cortisol and other bad stuff. My body built muscle mass eventho I didn't train. Feel more compact.

That being said, things can obviously change.

 

[TeaRex14]

I'll stay around and i'll update yeah.
I've read what you say multiple times. And since I come from another extreme (vegan diet), despite it being high carb, I think I've experienced what burning on "high cortisol and adrenaline" feels like. At first I had just so much energy. I was always doing physical activity (running, gym) because i HAD to. I felt so energized I had to move a lot. I thought I was just healthy. Few months after, I couldn't escape it: way leaner, but also "out". Eventho I had high energy all through this experiment I was still often anxious in term of social relationships and stuff. I felt weak all along despite high energy. And came this period where my brain disconnected for a couple of months, I was just feeling empty, exhausted, out of my mind. I relieved this mental pain... Just by eating liver.

I feel so sturdy, physically and emotionnally speaking now, that I really can't be convinced I'm on high cortisol and other bad stuff. My body built muscle mass eventho I didn't train. Feel more compact.

That being said, things can obviously change.

Micronutrient deficiencies are typically a problem on vegan diets. Sugar is fuel, but you need all the necessary components to metabolize the sugar properly. Deficient vegans often run into problems here because they aren't eating nutrient rich foods (liver, shellfish, eggs, etc.) to help process the sugars. You could've been stressing yourself out by eating a bunch of sugar and not having enough vitamins and minerals. Also, it's always typically better to eat 5 or 6 smaller meals then 3 big meals on a high carb diet. This way you can keep your blood glucose levels steady throughout the entire day. If your blood sugar tanks your body will release cortisol to bring the blood sugar back up to normal levels again. Do what makes you feel good, but more times then not when people start feeling bad they never attribute it to their diets because they think back and remember how good they felt when they started.

 

[Elephanto]

@Bogdar Yeah but milk has the least pleasant opioid effect, possibly because it triggers Histamine more than other types and/or maybe because milk isn't easy to digest for some and the undigested Casein and Lactose particles produce an unpleasant effect on their own. I think both of these properties can also contribute to mental fog and autistic thinking more than strict opioid ligands do.

For meat, I was thinking more of Tianeptine in recreational doses (only actual opiate I've tried), since I seem to remember a similar but lighter effect from eating bloody meat. Also opioids suppress Testosterone but Carnitine increases it (as well as having relatively high Iron levels seems to help on the T side), so this could also contribute to produce a more pleasant effect, though probably only transiently as both Carnitine and Iron should theoretically be health-deteriorating.

 

[Whichway?]

It's not healthy. Eating all meat will shift your body's metabolism from oxidative metabolism to fatty acid metabolism. Thyroid, progesterone,testosterone, and CO2 will be replaced with elevated levels of cortisol, epinephrine, lactic acid, and estrogen. In the long run these metabolic changes will lay the ground work to increase your susceptibility to virtually all chronic illnesses.

You would think that, but the evidence of Stefannson living on meat for a year and getting regular medicals by doctors, and the testimonials of others who have lived on a meat and water diet for several years, seems to suggest that there is a lot that we still don’t understand about metabolism.

 

[Elephanto]

You would think that, but the evidence of Stefannson living on meat for a year and getting regular medicals by doctors, and the testimonials of others who have lived on a meat and water diet for several years, seems to suggest that there is a lot that we still don’t understand about metabolism.

Or you're looking at exceptions for whom the personality (mental stress) and lifestyle components are optimal enough to offset such damage. We also don't know how long we're supposed to live. We are impressed by people living to 90 years old despite having (allegedly) bad dietary habits yet don't consider how stress is one of the main driver of aging and most of these people seem to be very low stress and have had a matching lifestyle. So this personality component (and a bit of luck) seems enough to make you live to 100 years old despite various unoptimal parameters. But if we lived in a society that promotes serenity, and more people had the chance to develop a serene character then we could observe more evidently the impact of diets (like say, the all-meat dieters would die at 100 but those with attention to various details we "know" meat negatively affects could live much longer, considering cells are theoretically immortal in optimal conditions [low oxidative damage would imply relatively low Iron levels; relatively low Tryptophan and Arginine more or less implying relatively low protein intake] and more optimization can be done nowadays with supps). As this isn't the case, I think any anectodal evidence of long-lived people can easily be explained by personality alone.

edit : Also the evidence of someone doing a diet for a year doesn't mean anything. People are chugging pufas and stressing their lives away in the modern world but it still takes about 30-40 years before most of them start to get seriously ill.

 

[Cirion]

I would tend to agree on stress - based upon my personal experiences and observations in others, I now believe stress is the driver of ALL disease and disorder in the body (I believe Haidut basically posted a study awhile back saying as much), and driving stress down is literally the #1 most important thing to do, and environmental stressors and lack of sleep are the two great offenders, as well as lack of sunlight, even more than diet (IMHO).

The oldest living WW2 veteran has the most sedentary lifestyle possible , though from what I recall, he eats fairly peaty (high saturated fat and sugars), and smokes cigars every day. Part of the key to his success I believe is because every day, he sits on his porch, and just chills, talks to neighbors etc. Social, sunlight, nature, relaxed... all keys to lower stress.

 

[ExD]

i ate nothing but meat for 4 weeks recently (clarified butter, cream and coffee too)

my only problem with it is that i felt AMAZING when i ate enough but it got expensive to eat enough. 2-3 ribeyes per day minimum ontop of my bacon and eggs etc really starting taking it's toll on my finances - however i work 7 days a week and my job is quite active and i was able to adapt fairly quickly.

i slept like a baby, so i'm not convinced it skyrockets stress. it cleared up my horrible icky white tongue (literally the only thing that's ever worked in ten years) it made my skin look first class and i put on muscle despite not exercising and being in a calorie deficit (my metabolism is naturally high so i need around 3500 cals as a baseline). my digestion was near perfect as well, and despite being -5 degrees outside, i could happily tolerate it BAREFOOT so long as i was eating enough.

i didn't start the diet with the intention of doing it forever, i did it as an experiment and i was surprised by how effective it is. sugar cravings just die a mighty death after about a week and you my only cravings were for ribeye steaks and liver. i balanced the amino acids by eating pork rinds and made magnesium bicarbonated water to help balance my eletrolytes.

my first experiment on the diet was to drink a glass of milk about 4weeks in. i digested the milk fine but it gave me insomnia. next day i tried again and i had one of the worst headaches i've had in a long time. later i tried eating blueberries and the strength i felt from the sugar rush was immense. it gave me an idea of exactly what sugar does - i was strong enough to work out and do everything i normally do on a high carb diet, i simply lacked the initial oompf that comes with sugar, but i wasn't weaker.

if i was to do it again i would include egg shell calcium and do it during the summer to maximize my outdoor vit d levels.

my only major takeaway is that starch is bad (i only eat sourdough now cuz it's cheap and i tolerate it) and that getting enough protein is absolutely vital for good health. (100g+ minimum)