What Explains Extreme Body Hair/beard But MPB?

[lvysaur]

Irish, Russians, extremely hairy and masculine.

https://i.imgur.com/eYG5Txi.png

Middle Easterners and people with their admixture (like Southern Europeans/Pakistanis) are even hairier.

Southeast Asians are hairier than Chinese/Koreans. The Ainu in Japan are genetically from Southeast Asia. The increased hairiness in Siberia is probably from Caucasoid admixture.

Whenever you have genetically similar people, the southerners are hairier. Africans and Russians are not genetically similar. Hairiness is a southwest Eurasian trait.

 

[Hairfedup]

https://i.imgur.com/eYG5Txi.png

Middle Easterners and people with their admixture (like Southern Europeans/Pakistanis) are even hairier.

Southeast Asians are hairier than Chinese/Koreans. The Ainu in Japan are genetically from Southeast Asia. The increased hairiness in Siberia is probably from Caucasoid admixture.

Whenever you have genetically similar people, the southerners are hairier. Africans and Russians are not genetically similar. Hairiness is a southwest Eurasian trait.

Aren't both SE Asians and Koreans/Japanese just a mixture of Laos Hobanian and Tinuyuan?

edit: misread / didn't have context. you're right. hirstituteness is unideal as far as I can tell

 

[victormgc]

This is definitely true, at least for most young men balding. My metabolism has been sub optimal since I was a child, I remember having cold hands all the time. Now I'm 22, metabolism is still not good, I have high estrone, which is opposed by high dht (and probably dhea).

My sister is 20 and has PCOS. Her doctor asked for some exams, she had high dht and really high dhea-s (like twice the limit). She started birth control 6 months ago (one that has estrogen and progesterone), and her symptoms are disappearing (hair is better, no acne, etc). Her experience makes me think that is all about balance between hormones, and the way the body uses to oppose each one of them.

I wonder how we could solve it, though. Simply supplementing thyroid and progesterone doesn't seem like enough.

 

[Hairfedup]

Irish, Russians, extremely hairy and masculine.
Latin people from central America, Philippinos, Kenyans, feminine looking, hairless, elongated limbs.

Not sure your theory holds very well

Southern Nilotes like Masai and Nandi may look feminine, but they will destroy these 'hairy thick necked behemoths' you allude to. Their fascial system is unparalleled.

 

[SSS]

Yes the reasons for balding is definitely multi-factorial, but in that comment I was specifically replying to the skinny fat look with balding.

Why do you think that happened to his friend, Hans ? "He had high androgenics ,huge muscle mass and very little body fat.

 

[mrchibbs]

This is definitely true, at least for most young men balding. My metabolism has been sub optimal since I was a child, I remember having cold hands all the time. Now I'm 22, metabolism is still not good, I have high estrone, which is opposed by high dht (and probably dhea).

My sister is 20 and has PCOS. Her doctor asked for some exams, she had high dht and really high dhea-s (like twice the limit). She started birth control 6 months ago (one that has estrogen and progesterone), and her symptoms are disappearing (hair is better, no acne, etc). Her experience makes me think that is all about balance between hormones, and the way the body uses to oppose each one of them.

I wonder how we could solve it, though. Simply supplementing thyroid and progesterone doesn't seem like enough.

It should honestly be enough. I'm 28 and I experienced massive hair loss at your age (22), had somewhat of a recovery around 24 and then got terribly ill at 25-26 and I've been trying to recover since.

Your backstory is very similar to mine, always had cold hands and feet, and suboptimal metabolism (along with asthma and other problems) through childhood and teenage years, but I was mostly very happy, if only a bit lower energy than most of my friends.

Thyroid supplementation doesn't fix the thyroid though, it only restores function, but you need to do a lot of work for yourself to improve your lifestyle and support your metabolism. That may mean eating more oysters/liver/shellfish and milk, and getting a lot of sunshine. I think guys like you and I probably have suboptimal metabolisms because of lifelong thyroid (and therefore steroid) deficiency.

You're lucky, I wish I knew what I know now at 22, it would have saved me a lot of heartache and pain. I don't have cold feet/hands anymore as I've finally improved my health over the past year but I let it get extremely bad before I made a change. Trust me. Check your morning temperature, if it isn't 98F or higher, consider wise thyroid supplementation (it's been discusses ad nauseam here). I think progesterone is great even for men temporarily but Ray recommends Thyroid+Pregnenolone to fix problems.

For a 22 y.old, simply eating a diet replete of nutrients with milk, liver, oysters, eggs, fruits etc. along with as much sunshine exposure, and spending time with friends, having fun, and taking thyroid+pregnenolone should really be all that is needed to reverse any problem within a short time (<1 year)

 

[mrchibbs]

This is definitely true, at least for most young men balding. My metabolism has been sub optimal since I was a child, I remember having cold hands all the time. Now I'm 22, metabolism is still not good, I have high estrone, which is opposed by high dht (and probably dhea).

My sister is 20 and has PCOS. Her doctor asked for some exams, she had high dht and really high dhea-s (like twice the limit). She started birth control 6 months ago (one that has estrogen and progesterone), and her symptoms are disappearing (hair is better, no acne, etc). Her experience makes me think that is all about balance between hormones, and the way the body uses to oppose each one of them.

I wonder how we could solve it, though. Simply supplementing thyroid and progesterone doesn't seem like enough.

And you should probably buy your sister a gift of Progest-E for her to apply topically on her skin, would probably do her a lot of good.

 

[victormgc]

It should honestly be enough. I'm 28 and I experienced massive hair loss at your age (22), had somewhat of a recovery around 24 and then got terribly ill at 25-26 and I've been trying to recover since.

Your backstory is very similar to mine, always had cold hands and feet, and suboptimal metabolism (along with asthma and other problems) through childhood and teenage years, but I was mostly very happy, if only a bit lower energy than most of my friends.

Thyroid supplementation doesn't fix the thyroid though, it only restores function, but you need to do a lot of work for yourself to improve your lifestyle and support your metabolism. That may mean eating more oysters/liver/shellfish and milk, and getting a lot of sunshine. I think guys like you and I probably have suboptimal metabolisms because of lifelong thyroid (and therefore steroid) deficiency.

You're lucky, I wish I knew what I know now at 22, it would have saved me a lot of heartache and pain. I don't have cold feet/hands anymore as I've finally improved my health over the past year but I let it get extremely bad before I made a change. Trust me. Check your morning temperature, if it isn't 98F or higher, consider wise thyroid supplementation (it's been discusses ad nauseam here). I think progesterone is great even for men temporarily but Ray recommends Thyroid+Pregnenolone to fix problems.

For a 22 y.old, simply eating a diet replete of nutrients with milk, liver, oysters, eggs, fruits etc. along with as much sunshine exposure, and spending time with friends, having fun, and taking thyroid+pregnenolone should really be all that is needed to reverse any problem within a short time (<1 year)

Diet alone didn't have many effects. I went from 97F to 97,5F when I upped my calories a lot, but I got fat and other problems came with that. I might give the supplement combo a try, but at this point I have honestly no hope for recovering my hair to something that doesn't make me self conscious about it all the time..

And you should probably buy your sister a gift of Progest-E for her to apply topically on her skin, would probably do her a lot of good.

I talked about this with her, but she is really scared of trying different stuff and messing with the results she got. With time, I plan to help her try to slowly transit from estrogen to progesterone, and maybe some thyroid.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[mrchibbs]

Diet alone didn't have many effects. I went from 97F to 97,5F when I upped my calories a lot, but I got fat and other problems came with that. I might give the supplement combo a try, but at this point I have honestly no hope for recovering my hair to something that doesn't make me self conscious about it all the time..


I talked about this with her, but she is really scared of trying different stuff and messing with the results she got. With time, I plan to help her try to slowly transit from estrogen to progesterone, and maybe some thyroid.

Thanks for the tips!

No problem, good luck, and I repeat, at 22 you should have every hope of full regrowth.

 

[thomas00]

Even 5 mcg of T3 I get cold.
I reality every type of Thyroid medication make me worse.
I need thyroid to stop my hair loss and to cure my stiff knee, but I cant tolerate it. It is so Sad to wake up always at 35.9 celsius, have a TSH of 6, cholesterol of 300 eating only 2 eggs a day and a ferritin of 300 too.
I realy think that if I fix these things my hair will get better.

Have you read what Ray has said about going cold from thyroid?

T3, by lowering stress, sometimes reveals a low basal metabolic rate, that was hidden by high stress hormones. The body produces about 4 mcg of T3 per hour, so taking more than that can interfere with regulatory processes. It's helpful to use the resting pulse rate, and the 24 hour temperature curve, along with other signs, such as mood, appearance of veins on the hands, etc. The peak temperature should be in the afternoon.

If your cholesterol is above 200, and the thyroid supplements didn't warm you up, it's possible that something is interfering with your steroid synthesis, which might be a deficiency of something like vitamin A, or interference from something like iron or carotene. Have you tried a supplement of pregnenolone or DHEA? Were any other hormones, such as prolactin, measured?

I occasionally see that happen [T3 WILL CAUSE LOW TEMP/PULSE]; sometimes people have had their pulse rate decrease 40 or 50 beats per minute. The temperature of your fingers, toes, and nose helps to interpret the balance between stress and thyroid; your fingers should be less cold as your metabolic rate comes up. In extreme hypothyroidism, the hands and feet can be very cold while the oral temperature looks o.k.; then as the metabolic rate increases, the difference between fingers and mouth decreases.
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As well as pregnenolone and DHEA, vitamin D is an important one to consider. And as Mr Chibbs said, you need to keep at it and not give up easily. Ray has said it can take months to stabilize the metabolism. Persistent, small doses.

 

[TheBeard]

Southern Nilotes like Masai and Nandi may look feminine, but they will destroy these 'hairy thick necked behemoths' you allude to.

Not quite sure about that but hey...your fantasy!

 

[TheBeard]

Why do you think that happened to his friend, Hans ? "He had high androgenics ,huge muscle mass and very little body fat.

He grew up in a very stressful environment where he early on had to take care of everything himself.
Healthy parents too, so probably high prenatal hormones

 

[Zigzag]

Would supplementation of DHEA, pregnenolone and vitamin D and maybe thyroid help restoring the needed balance? Obviously vit D from sunshine/special lamps not pills.
You guys basically told the backstory of my hairloss.

 

[Scenes]

Would supplementation of DHEA, pregnenolone and vitamin D and maybe thyroid help restoring the needed balance? Obviously vit D from sunshine/special lamps not pills.
You guys basically told the backstory of my hairloss.

I would avoid dhea but pregnenolone, thyroid, calcium and vit d sound helpful.

 

[jacob]

Men with high gonadal testosterone and DHT do not lose hair. Men (and women) with elevated adrenal androgens lose hair, but not because of the androgens, but because of the reason why the adrenal androgens are elevated in the first place. (i.e. stress/low thyroid/ progesterone deficiency/estrogen dominance/high prolactin etc.)

What’s the difference between regular androgens and adrenal androgens? What are adrenal androgens?

 

[Murtaza]

What’s the difference between regular androgens and adrenal androgens? What are adrenal androgens?

'regular' androgens would be the one produced by your gonads in the presence of sufficient t3, testosterone and dht. while adrenal androgen would be DHEA that is produced when estrogen irritates the adrenals

 

[mrchibbs]

'regular' androgens would be the one produced by your gonads in the presence of sufficient t3, testosterone and dht. while adrenal androgen would be DHEA that is produced when estrogen irritates the adrenals

That's exactly right, or another way to see it is thyroid function is necessary to produce normal steroids in the gonads, brains etc. When it fails, the stress hormones progressively take over and because t3 is needed to make progesterone, estrogen can start to accumulate everywhere and stimulate the adrenals into producing DHEA (Ray has said that the adrenals aren't good at making progesterone). I think the elevated DHEA is an adaptive response to protect the tissues from chronically elevated cortisol, adrenaline, aldosterone etc, but it's not as powerful as progesterone and it has the side effect of virilization, which I think explains the higher amount of peripheral tissue DHT seen in stressed people, and how it leads to acne, alopecia and body hair.

Lots of great quotes posted on the topic by @md_a above.

 

[mrchibbs]

I would avoid dhea but pregnenolone, thyroid, calcium and vit d sound helpful.

I think DHEA is great, but the problem is it can aromatize easily to estrogen. But when you combine it with Progesterone, and apply it topically, I think it would help everything.
The only two hormones which can't aromatize (AFAIK) are progesterone and DHT.

To me, it seems a cocktail of Progesterone+DHT would be utterly amazing for all issues of adrenal hyperactivity/stress etc.
I think it would be the ultimate protective, androgen-boosting, estrogen-crushing supplement.

But more fundamentally, thyroid and pregnenolone are the foundation.

 

[Broken man]

"By stimulating the adrenal glands, estrogen can increase the
production of the "male" hormones that are associated with whiskers and
chest hair. [E. C. Ditkoff, et al., "The impact of estrogen on adrenal
androgen sensitivity and secretion in polycystic ovary syndrome," J. Clin.
Endocrinol. Metab. 80(2), 603-607, 1995.] This usually happens when a
progesterone deficiency is combined with an excess of estrogen, as in the
polycystic ovary syndrome and sometimes at menopause in animals,
polycystic ovaries are caused by a deficiency of the thyroid hormone, and
the same regulatory mechanisms seem to operate in women. The
polycystic ovary syndrome is the most common endocrine disorder in
women during the reproductive years, and may occur in 10% of them. [A.
Dunaif, et al., eds. The Polycystic Ovary Syndrome, Cambridge, MA:
Blackwell Scientific; 1992.]" - RP, PMS to Menopause

"In the polycystic ovary syndrome, an excess of estrogen
stimulates the adrenal glands to produce a large amount of the androgenic
steroids, probably to balance estrogen in the way progesterone does when
the ovaries are functioning properly. These anabolic/androgenic
hormones apparently have some of the good effects of progesterone, such
as reducing the incidence of cancer, but many women are disturbed by the
increased growth of body and facial hair; facial features also tend to be
masculinized. In France, progesterone lotions have been in use for several
years for reversing some of these effects of the adrenal hormones, and for
balancing estrogen." - RP, PMS to Menopause

"The conversion of 16-hydroxy
androstenedione and 16-hydroxy-DHEA into estriol by the placenta
(Vega Ramos, 1973) would also cause fetal exhaustion or death to result
in lower estriol production. But a recent observation that a surge of
estriol production precedes the onset of labor, and that its premature
occurrence can identify women at risk of premature delivery (McGregor,
et al., 1995) suggests that the estriol surge might reflect the mother's
increased production of adrenal androgens during stress. (This would be
analogous to the situation in the polycystic ovary syndrome, in which
excessive estradiol drives the adrenals to produce androgens.)"
Ditkoff, E. C., et al., "The impact of estrogen on adrenal androgen sensitivity and secretion
in polycystic ovary syndrome," J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 80(2), 603-607, 1995." - RP, PMS to Menopause


From Danny Roddy

Men with pattern baldness were found to be proportionately more stressed (elevated DHEA to help oppose cortisol) and had lower levels of testosterone: "Men with early-onset AGA... have increased DHEAS levels and a worse gonadal steroidogenesis." Increased DHEAS and Decreased Total Testosterone Serum Levels in a Subset of Men with Early-Onset Androgenetic Alopecia: Does a Male PCOS-Equivalen... - PubMed - NCBI (2020)

"Increasingly, in both sexes, it appears that DHEA may rise during stress as a result of a deficiency of thyroid, progesterone, and pregnenolone." Prostate Cancer by Ray Peat (2013)

"These data show that DHEAS concentrations increase in response to both acute and chronic (repeated) stress and provide another measure of HPA activity that parallels cortisol during acute responses to stress but diverges in chronic or repeated stress." Acute and chronic stress increase DHEAS concentrations in rhesus monkeys. - PubMed - NCBI

"DHEA-S levels were elevated in all patients [with rapidly progressive male pattern baldness], ranging from 340 to 730 micrograms/dl... suggests that adrenal hyperactivity may initiate alopecia in young men...”Serum elevation of dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate associated with male pattern baldness in young men. - PubMed - NCBI

"DHEA... [antagonizes] certain responses produced by the glucocorticoids. Since these glucocorticoid-induced physiologic responses are deleterious & since cortisol levels in humans rise with age, resulting in a marked decline in the DHEA-cortisol ratio..." https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-59259-767-3_19 View attachment 17562

Thank you So much, you Are beast.

 

[Hairfedup]

Not quite sure about that but hey...your fantasy!

Lol its all trivial and I don't care to have that kinda dialogue so yeah...I enjoy your threads btw