What Explains Extreme Body Hair/beard But MPB?

[redsun]

I think the main reason why zinc makes you feel more anhedonic is because it antagonizes the dorsal raphe (DR) nucleus in the brain by acting on the 5-HT1A. The DR nucleus promotes mesolimbic dopamine, so lowering DR serotonin lowers mesolimbic dopamine, thus creating a state of anhedonia. This is also how zinc mostly lowers libido.
I don't think it's through the NMDA receptor because glutamate acts on the locus coeruleus (LC) and the DR nucleus to release noradrenaline and serotonin. Blocking NMDA can lower excess activation, but glutamate can still act through its other receptors, which can then still sufficiently stimulate the LC and DR.

Thanks for the good info hans that helps make things more clear on zinc.

 

[md_a]

Quotes by Ray Peat, PhD:
“Besides providing new insights into biological energy and aging, the recognition that estrogen activates the stress hormone system–the pituitary-adrenal system–also provides clear insights into other problems, such as the polycystic ovary syndrome, hirsutism, adrenal hyperplasia, Cushing’s disease, etc.”

“If your thyroid is working efficiently, your pituitary doesn’t have much to do and you’re not likely to get a pituitary tumor, your adrenals don’t have much to do, and your ovaries don’t get over stimulated. The other glands have an easy job when your thyroid is working right. If your thyroid gets interfered with, you have to rev up your adrenals and your pituitary becomes commander in chief and tells everyone what to do.”

“PCOS can be produced in animals by removing the thyroid gland. The inability of ovaries to make progesterone without thyroid causes the adrenals to be overstimulated, and they are the source of increased DHEA and other androgens and estrogen.”

“Many factors, including poor nutrition, climate, emotional or physical stress (even excessive running) and toxins, can cause a progesterone deficiency. Use of estrogens, birth control pills and even IUDs can also bring about a deficiency. Animal studies and clinical experience suggests that the prenatal hormonal environment (a mother’s excess of estrogen during pregnancy) can incline a person toward a deficiency of progesterone relative to estrogen.”

“Estrogen, at least when it is not opposed by a very large concentration of progesterone, creates all of the conditions known to be involved in the aging process. These effects of estrogen include interference with oxidative metabolism, formation of lipofuscin (the age-pigment), retention of iron, production of free radicals and lipid peroxides, promotion of excitotoxicity and death of nerve cells, impaired learning ability, increased tendency to form blood clots and to have vascular spasms, increased autoimmunity and atrophy of the thymus, elevated prolactin, atrophy of skin, increased susceptibility to a great variety of cancers, lowered body temperature, lower serum albumin, increased tendency toward edema, and many of the features of shock. In recent years, it has been found to be responsible even for neonatal masculinization and the masculinization of the polycystic ovary syndrome. Although the pharmaceutical industry has often referred to it as “the female hormone,” I don’t know of any competent scientist who has ever called it that.”

Estrogen and PCOS – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)


"One injection of estrogen can induce a large increase in the number of sympathetic nerves in the ovaries. At menopause, a similar “invasion” of sympathetic nerves occurs. The polycystic ovary (which is even more common after menopause than before, and some studies have found the condition in 20% of premenopausal women) responds to estrogen by producing nerve growth factor(s), and growing a large number of new sympathetic nerves. Although the hyperestrogenism associated with the polycystic ovary syndrome has many harmful effects, the invasion of the ovary by adrenergic nerves apparently protects it from the development of cancer.”

Autonomic systems

 

[mrchibbs]

Quotes by Ray Peat, PhD:
“Besides providing new insights into biological energy and aging, the recognition that estrogen activates the stress hormone system–the pituitary-adrenal system–also provides clear insights into other problems, such as the polycystic ovary syndrome, hirsutism, adrenal hyperplasia, Cushing’s disease, etc.”

“If your thyroid is working efficiently, your pituitary doesn’t have much to do and you’re not likely to get a pituitary tumor, your adrenals don’t have much to do, and your ovaries don’t get over stimulated. The other glands have an easy job when your thyroid is working right. If your thyroid gets interfered with, you have to rev up your adrenals and your pituitary becomes commander in chief and tells everyone what to do.”

“PCOS can be produced in animals by removing the thyroid gland. The inability of ovaries to make progesterone without thyroid causes the adrenals to be overstimulated, and they are the source of increased DHEA and other androgens and estrogen.”

“Many factors, including poor nutrition, climate, emotional or physical stress (even excessive running) and toxins, can cause a progesterone deficiency. Use of estrogens, birth control pills and even IUDs can also bring about a deficiency. Animal studies and clinical experience suggests that the prenatal hormonal environment (a mother’s excess of estrogen during pregnancy) can incline a person toward a deficiency of progesterone relative to estrogen.”

“Estrogen, at least when it is not opposed by a very large concentration of progesterone, creates all of the conditions known to be involved in the aging process. These effects of estrogen include interference with oxidative metabolism, formation of lipofuscin (the age-pigment), retention of iron, production of free radicals and lipid peroxides, promotion of excitotoxicity and death of nerve cells, impaired learning ability, increased tendency to form blood clots and to have vascular spasms, increased autoimmunity and atrophy of the thymus, elevated prolactin, atrophy of skin, increased susceptibility to a great variety of cancers, lowered body temperature, lower serum albumin, increased tendency toward edema, and many of the features of shock. In recent years, it has been found to be responsible even for neonatal masculinization and the masculinization of the polycystic ovary syndrome. Although the pharmaceutical industry has often referred to it as “the female hormone,” I don’t know of any competent scientist who has ever called it that.”

Estrogen and PCOS – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)


"One injection of estrogen can induce a large increase in the number of sympathetic nerves in the ovaries. At menopause, a similar “invasion” of sympathetic nerves occurs. The polycystic ovary (which is even more common after menopause than before, and some studies have found the condition in 20% of premenopausal women) responds to estrogen by producing nerve growth factor(s), and growing a large number of new sympathetic nerves. Although the hyperestrogenism associated with the polycystic ovary syndrome has many harmful effects, the invasion of the ovary by adrenergic nerves apparently protects it from the development of cancer.”

Autonomic systems

All there is to be said, still so much quality content on Function Alps

 

[md_a]

"By stimulating the adrenal glands, estrogen can increase the
production of the "male" hormones that are associated with whiskers and
chest hair. [E. C. Ditkoff, et al., "The impact of estrogen on adrenal
androgen sensitivity and secretion in polycystic ovary syndrome," J. Clin.
Endocrinol. Metab. 80(2), 603-607, 1995.] This usually happens when a
progesterone deficiency is combined with an excess of estrogen, as in the
polycystic ovary syndrome and sometimes at menopause in animals,
polycystic ovaries are caused by a deficiency of the thyroid hormone, and
the same regulatory mechanisms seem to operate in women. The
polycystic ovary syndrome is the most common endocrine disorder in
women during the reproductive years, and may occur in 10% of them. [A.
Dunaif, et al., eds. The Polycystic Ovary Syndrome, Cambridge, MA:
Blackwell Scientific; 1992.]" - RP, PMS to Menopause

"In the polycystic ovary syndrome, an excess of estrogen
stimulates the adrenal glands to produce a large amount of the androgenic
steroids, probably to balance estrogen in the way progesterone does when
the ovaries are functioning properly. These anabolic/androgenic
hormones apparently have some of the good effects of progesterone, such
as reducing the incidence of cancer, but many women are disturbed by the
increased growth of body and facial hair; facial features also tend to be
masculinized. In France, progesterone lotions have been in use for several
years for reversing some of these effects of the adrenal hormones, and for
balancing estrogen." - RP, PMS to Menopause

"The conversion of 16-hydroxy
androstenedione and 16-hydroxy-DHEA into estriol by the placenta
(Vega Ramos, 1973) would also cause fetal exhaustion or death to result
in lower estriol production. But a recent observation that a surge of
estriol production precedes the onset of labor, and that its premature
occurrence can identify women at risk of premature delivery (McGregor,
et al., 1995) suggests that the estriol surge might reflect the mother's
increased production of adrenal androgens during stress. (This would be
analogous to the situation in the polycystic ovary syndrome, in which
excessive estradiol drives the adrenals to produce androgens.)"
Ditkoff, E. C., et al., "The impact of estrogen on adrenal androgen sensitivity and secretion
in polycystic ovary syndrome," J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 80(2), 603-607, 1995." - RP, PMS to Menopause


From Danny Roddy

Men with pattern baldness were found to be proportionately more stressed (elevated DHEA to help oppose cortisol) and had lower levels of testosterone: "Men with early-onset AGA... have increased DHEAS levels and a worse gonadal steroidogenesis." Increased DHEAS and Decreased Total Testosterone Serum Levels in a Subset of Men with Early-Onset Androgenetic Alopecia: Does a Male PCOS-Equivalen... - PubMed - NCBI (2020)

"Increasingly, in both sexes, it appears that DHEA may rise during stress as a result of a deficiency of thyroid, progesterone, and pregnenolone." Prostate Cancer by Ray Peat (2013)

"These data show that DHEAS concentrations increase in response to both acute and chronic (repeated) stress and provide another measure of HPA activity that parallels cortisol during acute responses to stress but diverges in chronic or repeated stress." Acute and chronic stress increase DHEAS concentrations in rhesus monkeys. - PubMed - NCBI

"DHEA-S levels were elevated in all patients [with rapidly progressive male pattern baldness], ranging from 340 to 730 micrograms/dl... suggests that adrenal hyperactivity may initiate alopecia in young men...”Serum elevation of dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate associated with male pattern baldness in young men. - PubMed - NCBI

"DHEA... [antagonizes] certain responses produced by the glucocorticoids. Since these glucocorticoid-induced physiologic responses are deleterious & since cortisol levels in humans rise with age, resulting in a marked decline in the DHEA-cortisol ratio..." https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-59259-767-3_19

 

[Zigzag]

This would explain all those "skinny fat" men, who look estrogenic and still go bald.

 

[Hans]

The overactive adrenal glands are stimulated by serotonin and neural adrenaline. They can be inhibited with an NMDA antagonist and 5-HT1A agonist, such as zinc. Prolactin is also elevated with PCOS, so anything that increases dopamine, such as Mucuna Pruriens, TT, adamantane, zinc, etc., can help lower prolactin and inhibit the adrenals.

 

[Hans]

This would explain all those "skinny fat" men, who look estrogenic and still go bald.

Low muscle mass with fat is most likely due to cortisol and low androgens. This state drives balding.

 

[jb116]

From a previous thread about balding and body hair, I continue to wonder about the pattern you see with old men. They start losing body hair, sometimes in patches and also concentrically around the nipple. Overall they lose body hair. So considering stress hormones that rise with aging, how does one reconcile or link these explanations with what happens in elderly men?

 

[Zigzag]

Low muscle mass with fat is most likely due to cortisol and low androgens. This state drives balding.

It's actually scary how on point it is when I think of the state of my health back when I started receding. Basically 100% true. I even looked low androgenic.

 

[TheBeard]

This doesn't make sense.

1) Women have no body hair. You'd think they'd grow this stuff too if it were natural selection.

2) Southern people (hot climates) are hairier than northern ones. Arabs are hairier than Europeans, Southeast Asians are hairier than Koreans, and the Quechua (South America) could grow goatees while Northern Natives couldn't.

Irish, Russians, extremely hairy and masculine.
Latin people from central America, Philippinos, Kenyans, feminine looking, hairless, elongated limbs.

Not sure your theory holds very well

 

[TheBeard]

Low muscle mass with fat is most likely due to cortisol and low androgens. This state drives balding.

One of my friends started balding heavily in his early twenties.
He was the most androgenic looking person I have ever seen: huge muscle mass, very little body fat, hairy as a gorilla and a thick beard since he was 16.
10 years later he is just as androgenic looking and balder than ever

 

[Hans]

One of my friends started balding heavily in his early twenties.
He was the most androgenic looking person I have ever seen: huge muscle mass, very little body fat, hairy as a gorilla and a thick beard since he was 16.
10 years later he is just as androgenic looking and balder than ever

Yes the reasons for balding is definitely multi-factorial, but in that comment I was specifically replying to the skinny fat look with balding.

 

[mrchibbs]

From a previous thread about balding and body hair, I continue to wonder about the pattern you see with old men. They start losing body hair, sometimes in patches and also concentrically around the nipple. Overall they lose body hair. So considering stress hormones that rise with aging, how does one reconcile or link these explanations with what happens in elderly men?

The adaptive hyperandrogenism will eventually taper off after middle age, the older men typically start to be deficient even in adrenal DHEA, whereas hirsutism in adults is driven entirely by the adrenals in both sexes. Basically older men (above 75) have almost no hormones.

 

[mrchibbs]

One of my friends started balding heavily in his early twenties.
He was the most androgenic looking person I have ever seen: huge muscle mass, very little body fat, hairy as a gorilla and a thick beard since he was 16.
10 years later he is just as androgenic looking and balder than ever

Danny Roddy also mentioned this, he had a roommate who developed very dark body hair everywhere during a phase of aggressive balding in his early 20s.
Personally, my initial hair loss in my early 20s wasn't accompanied with body hair growth, maybe because in my case it started with sudden diffuse shedding from psychological stress. The body hair started growing several years later, during a severe illness.

 

[jb116]

The adaptive hyperandrogenism will eventually taper off after middle age, the older men typically start to be deficient even in adrenal DHEA, whereas hirsutism in adults is driven entirely by the adrenals in both sexes. Basically older men (above 75) have almost no hormones.

It would seem plausible but then there is the problem of unopposed stress in the elderly that Peat talks about. Unless that's the point, that adrenaline although could be elevated in the young, they at least have DHEA as a protective measure? And the elderly have lower DHEA, thereby lose body hair and also have unopposed adrenaline?
That's my thinking at least.

 

[mrchibbs]

It would seem plausible but then there is the problem of unopposed stress in the elderly that Peat talks about. Unless that's the point, that adrenaline although could be elevated in the young, they at least have DHEA as a protective measure? And the elderly have lower DHEA, thereby lose body hair and also have unopposed adrenaline? That's my thinking at least.

I think your thinking is right, I don't remember where I read it, but DHEA being elevated is a protective measure to compensate for chronic elevated stress hormones. The side effect is the virilization seen in PCOS and MPB.

What peat means by stress in the elderly is the metabolic stress which he used to say was the state we're all in after 40 y.old. I think there's been a serious decline in health of the young over the past decade, and it's probably much earlier, around 30 y.old on average.

 

[jb116]

I think your thinking is right, I don't remember where I read it, but DHEA being elevated is a protective measure to compensate for chronic elevated stress hormones. The side effect is the virilization seen in PCOS and MPB.

What peat means by stress in the elderly is the metabolic stress which he used to say was the state we're all in after 40 y.old. I think there's been a serious decline in health of the young over the past decade, and it's probably much earlier, around 30 y.old on average.

Makes sense! since in the elderly it's a culmination of insult and injury, where as with the young, they are exposed to insult and injury just by lifestyle/modernism, disregarding chronology. As said around here before, the young are the new old.

 

[mrchibbs]

Makes sense! since in the elderly it's a culmination of insult and injury, where as with the young, they are exposed to insult and injury just by lifestyle/modernism, disregarding chronology. As said around here before, the young are the new old.

Definitely. I was so strong and happy at 19, no idea I would crash this hard in my 20s, and now in my late 20s, I'm just starting to recover. It's incredible how stressed out and sick I became, and many other people around me were too.

There is definitely a something toxic about the culture, but a few people manage to pull through and be productive and healthy human beings by finding a purpose in life, and having a good support system, friends, and good habits of getting sunshine... But often the problems of elevated stress hormones/serotonin/low thyroid come from early-life development and there is not much they can do about it.

I'm now hearing stories of teenagers being really ill, depressed at very young ages, it's really unbelievably sad how young the degenerative processes start.

 

[Hitchens]

No offence, but there is zero evidence of this whatsoever.

Offended by your ignorance? Surely you jest, I’ll post some studies this weekend.

 

[mrchibbs]

Offended by your ignorance? Surely you jest, I’ll post some studies this weekend.

Perfectly willing to be wrong on this. Not denying there isn't calcification I just strongly question the notion that ''androgen receptors''
have anything to do with the calcification. I think the research has tried to frame issues in terms of androgens because of Merck's fraudulent
1990s research on finasteride.

Men with high gonadal testosterone and DHT do not lose hair. Men (and women) with elevated adrenal androgens lose hair, but not because of the androgens, but because of the reason why the adrenal androgens are elevated in the first place. (i.e. stress/low thyroid/ progesterone deficiency/estrogen dominance/high prolactin etc.)